Male and female

jikjakjikjak
edited December 2008 in Shikoku Ken (四国犬)
hey everyone,hope you are all doing good. i havent been on in a while as i was out of town the past month and i just got back the other night, but i did lurk here and there :)
off to vegas tomorrow to watch the big boxing match. anyone going to be there?

anyways, i was just wondering, do any of u know the general differences in traits between male and female shikokus? id just like to get a better understanding before i make a final decision. i would think that it really just depend on the dog as an individual. im more interested in personality differences, but info on physical differences are welcome as well (basically males tend to be bigger right?). does one gender have more of a prey drive? or is more protective? any info would be great!
cheers!
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Comments

  • WhiteGC8WhiteGC8
    edited November -1
    I wish I were going to Vegas for the fight, but I just came from there last week for Thanksgiving.

    Can't help you with the info you need though.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    edited November -1
    Males:
    - Tend to be taller
    - Tend to be skinnier
    - Picky eaters
    - Tend to be more reactive
    - Seem to bond more with a single person than females
    - Maybe more willing to please than females

    Female:
    - Thicker
    - Shorter
    - Don't seem to bond with just one person
    - Hard working, but not as willing to please
    - I think females may be tougher [physically]

    ----

    Enjoy your trip and be safe! :o)

    ----
  • SangmortSangmort
    edited November -1
    Oh! That was helpful Brad, Thanks! ~
  • ShikokuSpiritShikokuSpirit
    edited November -1
    Kei-kun recently has had quite a hefty appetite, I'm so impressed! He is back up to 2 cups a day with kibble. And he will eat 6-7 chicken legs. He was a very delicate eater though. Still "choosy" with treats (kibble is best). He is showing more interest now too with things, not just his dinner. He's been very laid-back, but it's almost like now he is "waking up". He has his zoomies more often now in the inside before settling down to relax, lol. He does seem more active lately. I think something has gotten into him.

    ---------

    I'm watching the fight on the TV in about half hour or so.
  • jikjakjikjak
    edited December 2008
    thanks for the input, it gave me some good insight on their differences.
    im probably going to go with a female when the time comes.

    whay did u mean by more reactive?
    also who would have more of a prey drive?
  • EdgewoodEdgewood
    edited November -1
    Well I only have a male, so I can only comment on him.

    But jikjak, he has a HUGE prey drive. Very, very smart about catching small animals that enter into my fenced yard. He has learned to leave cats alone (lives with 5 cats), but squirrels, possums, rabbits, ground hogs, chipmunks beware.

    Mine in a picky eater although he loves raw, kibble not so much ;-). I don't know about the more reactive, but then again, I don't have a pack like Brad. My guy is exposed to a lot of other dogs in obedience classes and pretty much is good at ignoring other dogs (even in close proximity). He is training for his CD now, but can do all the CDX stuff currently.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    edited December 2008
    I would expect the prey drive to be the same in males and females - tho that is a hard one to quantify.

    As for reactiveness, I am only going on the experience I have had with the male Shikoku I have met, Corina's Kei is the only male Shikoku I have met that was not hyper-reactive with other dogs. I have not met Kris's Kuma, so I can't make a comparison there - I have not met Kuma's dad either, tho I have met his mom <- Kuma's mom is lovely.

    My point is, both Peggy and Katja's males, as well as the males they have produced, that I have met, tend to be more "standoffish" when meeting other dogs than the females.

    What that actually means to you, when choosing a sex for your pup, is that [IMHO] males may require more socialization to keep them from being "snarky" with other dogs. That is all.

    ----
  • jikjakjikjak
    edited November -1
    ah so for being reactive, u are referring to how they react with other dogs that they meet?
    hey brada, from your experience, which breed (between akita,shiba,shikoku) is the easiest to train and the most obedient?
    i find that my akita listens better than the shiba.

    wow thats great edgewood, was it difficult training him to do all the CDX stuff?
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    edited November -1
    Yes, that is what I was speaking about: how they react to dogs... but it can also show up in other things - like excitability. But you are right, I was referring more towards how they act around dogs. Sometimes that kind of reactiveness is mislabeled as "dog aggression".

    ----

    As for which is the easiest breed to train and the most obedient...

    I would say:

    1) Akita
    2) Shikoku
    3) Shiba
    4) Kai [since I'm listing them]

    Our Akita are easy, they train very easy with positive reinforcement. If you scold them they shut down, and you cannot physically make them do anything - there is no need tho, a little praise and a treat and they will do anything for you.

    Our Shikoku are a bit less willing to please, but not by much. When they are "on" they will perform very nicely, but they get bored/distracted easily. I have noticed Shikoku learn really well from watching other dogs.

    Our Shiba are difficult, but they can be trained. If you make anything fun with a Shiba they are stoked to do it.

    Kai... lol... They take a LOT of motivation and get bored really easily. Kona is also expressionless, so you have no idea if he is having fun or not. When he is working tho, he is in the zone and works HARD.

    That's my experience w/ them, results may vary. :o)

    ----
  • SangmortSangmort
    edited November -1
    "Results may very x10" lol ;) ~
  • jikjakjikjak
    edited November -1
    ahh interesting, i figured the shiba would be the hardest. they are definitely harder to train compared to the akita. i would have thought that the shikoku would be even easier to train than the akita though. based on your comments, they are quite close though in terms of easiness of training right?
    its interesting to know that they learn well from watching other dogs. i guess it would be good to join some sort of obedience class this time around and this would help for socialization as well.
  • SangmortSangmort
    edited December 2008
    Indefinitely, any of the Nihon Ken must be socialized from an excruciatingly early age. Remember, these dogs, by nature, are dog reactive [ or "aggressive" if you really want to use an old-school term ] not doing some form of socialization classes [ even the ones at like petsmart ] will hurt a lot more than you can imagine.

    These guys are a bit different than your average pup, I think. For example, a Labrador who is unsocialized as a pup will, generally, still have a friendly disposition as an adult. This logic doesn't really apply to most of the nihon ken. [ as many of the forum members who have under socialized dogs will tell you ]

    Furthermore, from just general doggy knowledge as well as hearing about all the experiences from the forum members, the Nihon Ken generally tend to do better on the "Nothing in Life is Free" strategy. [ it involves the dog performing an action, such as a "sit," before the dog gets what they want, for example, food, toy, play, etc. ]


    Also, [ and correct me if I'm wrong on this Brad ] when Brad references to the "ease" of training any of the nihon ken, he is ranking them as they stand against each other. Remember these are ancient / primitive / super intelligent dog breeds. They will, on average, be more difficult to train than other dog breeds. [ read: labradors, dobermans, border collies, etc. ]


    Hope that made sense :)


    [ note; not particularly saying this towards you specifically Terence, just putting this out there for the rest of the people that read the forum ;) ] ~
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    edited December 2008
    Good points Osy, I didn't mean to make it sound easy to train any of these breeds...

    For example, LGDs are generally considered difficult to train [because of their extremely independent working breed type of temperament], if you had asked me to rank all of the breeds we owned including non-nihonken breeds in order of easiest to train to most difficult I would have said this:

    1) Caucasian Ovcharka [Caucasian Mountain Dog]
    2) Akita
    3) Shikoku
    4) Shiba
    5) Kai

    I dunno if that helps put some perspective on it or not [since COs are kinda rare and you may not know what they are], but there ya go! :o)

    ----
  • jikjakjikjak
    edited November -1
    ya these dogs are much harder to train than most other breeds. i just wanted to get a better idea of what to expect from a shikoku as this will be my first one.
    i have had experience over the years with akitas and shibas so thats why i wanted a comparison between the 3 breeds.
    im definitely going to socialize the shikoku more. my akita gets along fine with everything and everyone but my shiba is still quite snobbish to other dogs. she doesnt attack them but she pretty much just ignores them.
    she probably thinks shes human hehe
  • EdgewoodEdgewood
    edited November -1
    Now I think that training my Shikoku is REALLY easy as he LOVES to work. He doesn't have the same personality as Ahi at all. Even in busy working obedience classes, he is often at the top of his class. Many times the instructor will ask for him to do a demo because he is very eager and willing. But it may be just him (since I only have had 1 shikoku). When he first arrives to class, he can be a bit distracted, so I get to class by about 15 minutes early. Then he settles in really well.

    Jikjak, if you haven't seen this before, here is him doing obedience in the yard at 11 mos of age.
  • jikjakjikjak
    edited November -1
    awesome vid! he's so well behaved.
    i know you arent supposed to with nihon-ken but are u able to walk him off-leash?
  • GreensageGreensage
    edited November -1
    Wow Kris,

    What a good boy Kuma is. You must be very proud of him.

    Your property is gorgeous. Such a wonderful place!

    Thank you for sharing. Ron and Rudi
  • ZinjaZinja
    edited December 2008
    [quote author=jikjak ]
    awesome vid! he's so well behaved.
    i know you arent supposed to with nihon-ken but are u able to walk him off-leash?
    [/quote]

    I know I can walk my Akita down the street and back without a leash. My father can actually jog around the neighborhood and Ninja will keep up with him. I wish I could do that. She also comes whenever my father does a "special whistle" noise that I can't mimic. She will listen to me about 95% of the time. I've only chased after her once when she was a pup (stupid bunny).

    I'm not sure why she's so listens to my father so well. Maybe because he trained his old Doberman well? ::shrugs:: It's not fair... I'm the one who brought her to the puppy classes!!

    -Joe
  • EdgewoodEdgewood
    edited November -1
    Well, I used to take Kuma off lead (<6 mos of age) on occasion outside the fenced yard on walks. He was really good. BUT, after 6 months of age, his prey drive really kicked in and therefore I do not walk him off lead outside the fence anymore. He still is very good, but all it takes is a small animal to dart out and he would run after it....

    But, I do work him off lead outside the yard on occasion, but practicing his obedience patterns. If he is in the "obedience test" mode, he turns off his hunting drive and concentrates...but on a "regular" walk, his hunting drive is in full force. It is amazing how a simple "ok" tells him he is done with obedience and immediately turns on his nose/prey drive ! LOL!

    Ron, thanks for the compliments on the property. I like to garden -- just like you. Your property is more filled out (I think that you have been there longer). We have been here 8 years and I continue to plant more flowers each and every year!
  • HeidiHeidi
    edited November -1
    Well, I have limited experience with other shikoku. I've met Katja's dogs, but that was in a pretty controlled environment, just in their kennels. I can say that Rakka is super friendly and will pretty much squeal with delight and be bff with anyone who wants to give her scritchies and loves.

    I've had similar experiences as Kris as far as obedience/off-leash/prey-drive. Rakka is very attentive and responsive if she's "in the zone" and I'm working with her, but if we're just out on a walk, she'll chase whatever she feels like chasing. Of course, I just let her since we're so remote and the land is relatively flat and clear, so I can see where she's going.

    She's pretty intense when she's going after something. She jumped off the steepest part of this cliff to chase a tennis ball (I didn't do it on purpose and I didn't think she'd go over the cliff). Even more surprising, she actually got a running start back up it and managed to jump back over the cliff, not at the steepest part, but still... she jumped several feet up in the air from loose gravel like it was nothing to her.

    Photobucket

    Plus, back when we had those three feral sheep and llama on our property, she got away to chase them once, and she separated one sheep from the rest and wouldn't let it go anywhere, which I suppose, is true "barking/biting to detain" shikoku hunting style.

    As for shikoku compared to easier-to-train breeds, I can compare Navi (sheepdog) with Rakka. Navi is super submissive, very willing to please, and very intelligent. She was even helping me pull weeds out of my dog yard with her mouth after watching me do it for a while. Compared with Navi, Rakka is less willing to please/easy to train, but still quite trainable. As long as it's fun and engaging, she's all for it. Actually, sometimes Navi will be too eager to please and will get frustrated if she doesn't know what I want or can't do it just right, then she starts barking and wiggling around like crazy. Rakka stays more calm if she doesn't get it right away, which is easier to deal with, at least for me. Also, if I tell Rakka to stop doing something, she'll usually just glare at me and stop. Navi will get really apologetic and grovel at my feet. Definitely different attitudes, but I really like working with Rakka. She's a good worker!
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    edited November -1
    Beebe goes off leash in fenced parks but even after 1+years of solid recall training, I can forget it if there is a prey item that suddenly pops up. The dog will go after it until it is gone or it is caught, (or it stops being fun). It is just their instinct to give chase when something darts passed them. I have found that I am able gradually to condition the dog to recall after shorter and shorter chases-the megadistractions using a lot of reward and positive reinforcement. Ike is unable to do this yet but Beebe is more able to pay attention to her training over her instincts most of the time if I have a huge reward for her. I would say the Nihon Ken that were used primarily for hunting would be the poorest off leash pets due to their high prey drives and independence (they may check in once in a while in between chasing squirrels), but each dog is an individual and may be totally fine compared to the next.
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    edited November -1
    "a Labrador who is unsocialized as a pup will, generally, still have a friendly disposition as an adult."

    not necessarily! I was mauled 4 years ago by a drooling shelter lab!
  • JessicaRabbitJessicaRabbit
    edited November -1
    I had my wrist broken by a lab, Moto was attacked by a chocolate lab, Piglet was attacked by a yellow lab.
  • LeonbergerLeonberger
    edited November -1
    Labs are suffering the irresponsible breeder a lot, pretty much like other breeds.
    I think that's why loads of Labs are coming out aggressive and with other off standard characteristics.
    Then they might be suffering from what I call the "Poodle syndrome", where owners think they're so cute they can get away with everything, and we know where that leads.
  • JessicaRabbitJessicaRabbit
    edited December 2008
    Think that is a major contributor. People believe that they are inherently nice dogs and therefore require little to no training. So all of a sudden you have a hundred pound dog with no trained boundaries or guidance. The lab that broke my wrist wasn't so much aggressive as out of control. The owner would always say "he is just playing!" as he was pulling on someones clothes, hair, stuff. When he bit me he was going for my sweatshirt. Unfortunately I was IN the sweatshirt. And crushed my wrist.

    Comes back to bad dogs come from bad people.
  • LeonbergerLeonberger
    edited December 2008
    Exactly!

    Of course there are exceptions to the rule. Even the breed standard can only account for so much of a dog's behaviour, a good part is left to the individual and then another to the education.
  • brandon_wbrandon_w
    edited November -1
    Also there are a million people who breed labs, but just like every other breed, only a few who do it well. So many breeders are obsessed with having Chocolate Labs that temperament and any other qualifications go out the window. Therefore you have breeders breeding dogs that are not the friendly dogs people expect but the owners still don't worry about really good training, because "hey it's a lab".

    It's like a double whammy of screwing up a breed.

    Please don't take offense people who like labs (I enjoy most of the ones I meet) there are still a ton of good labs out there, it's just sad what is happening to them.
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    edited November -1
    Comes back to bad dogs are come from bad people

    agreed. I have no doubt that the dog that mauled me (and left a nice scar on my leg!) was the product of bad people who thought Lab=will take care of himself, but even his breed genetics didn't save him from euthanasia.
  • LeonbergerLeonberger
    edited November -1
    Their popularity is screwing them over, like so many other breeds.
    It all goes back to making the quick buck(or euro) with a breed that's hot and selling.
    It ruined the Dalmatian around the time of the 101, the Dobie, Rott and keeps on moving.
  • HeidiHeidi
    edited November -1
    I think it's funny how almost every single breed of dog except golden retrievers are described as "These are NOT golden retrievers!" as a warning that they're not perfect and need training. I bet the breeders of golden retrievers want to say, "these are NOT golden retrievers" too!
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