I missed so much by being away.
Wow,
This has been an interesting day reading all the posts on the "Food" portion of Nihon Ken Forum. Sadly, I find that most of the posts are over a time limit with no further responses, and I am not able to chime in. I am comfortable with my feeding methods with Rudi even though I am so very different than the "Rules" that seem to be spelled out. I probably should not get too in depth but there were a few things that I noted that I just had to mention. I do hope I am not offending anyone by this.
Omnivore vs Carnivore: I was raised in a Wild Animal Rehab Center in El Paso, TX. By raised I mean I was 13 when I arrived and I was 18 when I left (my bedroom was actually adjoining the large cat pens so opening my windows was not an option). It was my duty to feed, clean, and work with all the critters that came through. I was fortunate to work with Golden Eagles, Bald (once), Osprey, Red-tailed, Great Horned Owls, Barn Owls, and etc. As for mammals my Carnivore list was mostly the larger cats, Bobcats and Mountain Lion, but I also was able to work with several Coyotes and Badgers. I do not hold a degree but there is something I have personally observed. When a meat eater makes a kill they typically eat the innards first. We used to refer to this behavior as "eating your salad before your meal". It is the most nutritious portion of their diet; be it the vital organs or the contents thereof. I am pretty sure Andrew (I believe that was his name) mentioned something of this nature. He said that the minerals in the stream where the deer was drinking and so forth was carried over to the predator which eats them (not his very words but that was the generality of it).
So my thoughts are on anyone that would offer a dog a portion of cut-up chicken (bone or not), but not offering all the "goodness" of the bird itself. I find this a bit odd.
I got to thinking about what the breeder that Brad spoke to said, the PhD person. I cannot imagine this person can clearly state as to what a "primative" breed would have been fed 3-6000 years ago, but then again, maybe I can imagine it. However, from my own observations I imagine that a breed this primitive would simply eat as any other wild dog would. Those in Africa, Australia, Europe, or here would eat the meat and the digestive tract. They most likely ate their "salad" before they ate their meat. Alpha and mate would eat first (eating the most nutritious), thus providing the most for the "future" meaning the offspring. So, If the breed were "Alpha'd" by a human, they simply were offered the leftovers after the human consumed what they desired. I think it is just ironic that a human would consider the innards the "waste" product of the animal; a beneficial symbiosis if you look at it on the dog's benefit. We all know the Alpha eats first which is why dogs are such perfect "primitive" companions. I highly doubt that anything went to waste back then, and it was fresh!
I also think about how our modern day chicken is processed and made available via our grocery. The birds are fed poor/cheap consistent food. They are given alot of hormones to boost the growth rate and fat production. Then after processing they are dipped through a bleach solution based on USDA methodology for proper human health guidelines and for a more lengthy "freshness". It is quite nasty just thinking about it. Clearly anyone who has had a true "farm-raised" animal would tell you the clarity of taste that comes through versus what we eat today. It is just like eggs. Store bought eggs are tasteless compared to fresh eggs coming from "bug eatin/free-ranged" birds. The quality of taste and nutrition are directly linked to the natural kingdom, even in our own backyards.
I am not saying that anyone is right or wrong in this matter, but I do hope that I made a few "common-sense" observations that might help those considering diets. I personally do not know the true extent based on the one dog that I managed to bring to the geriatric stage, but I cannot help but think that 13 or 14 is a young dog. I guess folks that live to 60 are old, but not in my eyes LOL. Heck, I am still trying to break the record for the longest-lived chicken (the record now is 14). My oldest hen is 8-years-old this coming Spring.
So, aside from my long-winded observations, I wanted to hear from folks about eggs, milk, and cheese. Are these products on your dog's menu? Also, are any of us here allowing their dogs to "intuitively eat", whereas they provide a constant food source? I have been witness to dogs who "guard" bones or food aggressively, often gorging or eating fast when food is offered. These dogs seem to be fed infrequently and it seems as if the dog acts as if any morsel offered is it's last. Although, based on wild dog behavior "he that does not eat fast eats less" so I guess it may be a normal pattern that I just have not had to go through with either Rudi or my previous dog.
Ok, I probably missed info that would make my rambling more of a dull ache, and I do hope that I have not offended anyone's sensibility in these matters, but I wanted to get this out. So let me know about the eggs, cheese, and milk; I half imagine that there is a post I missed that already mentioned this, so link me if you can.
Thanks for enduring this one, Ron (smiling)
This has been an interesting day reading all the posts on the "Food" portion of Nihon Ken Forum. Sadly, I find that most of the posts are over a time limit with no further responses, and I am not able to chime in. I am comfortable with my feeding methods with Rudi even though I am so very different than the "Rules" that seem to be spelled out. I probably should not get too in depth but there were a few things that I noted that I just had to mention. I do hope I am not offending anyone by this.
Omnivore vs Carnivore: I was raised in a Wild Animal Rehab Center in El Paso, TX. By raised I mean I was 13 when I arrived and I was 18 when I left (my bedroom was actually adjoining the large cat pens so opening my windows was not an option). It was my duty to feed, clean, and work with all the critters that came through. I was fortunate to work with Golden Eagles, Bald (once), Osprey, Red-tailed, Great Horned Owls, Barn Owls, and etc. As for mammals my Carnivore list was mostly the larger cats, Bobcats and Mountain Lion, but I also was able to work with several Coyotes and Badgers. I do not hold a degree but there is something I have personally observed. When a meat eater makes a kill they typically eat the innards first. We used to refer to this behavior as "eating your salad before your meal". It is the most nutritious portion of their diet; be it the vital organs or the contents thereof. I am pretty sure Andrew (I believe that was his name) mentioned something of this nature. He said that the minerals in the stream where the deer was drinking and so forth was carried over to the predator which eats them (not his very words but that was the generality of it).
So my thoughts are on anyone that would offer a dog a portion of cut-up chicken (bone or not), but not offering all the "goodness" of the bird itself. I find this a bit odd.
I got to thinking about what the breeder that Brad spoke to said, the PhD person. I cannot imagine this person can clearly state as to what a "primative" breed would have been fed 3-6000 years ago, but then again, maybe I can imagine it. However, from my own observations I imagine that a breed this primitive would simply eat as any other wild dog would. Those in Africa, Australia, Europe, or here would eat the meat and the digestive tract. They most likely ate their "salad" before they ate their meat. Alpha and mate would eat first (eating the most nutritious), thus providing the most for the "future" meaning the offspring. So, If the breed were "Alpha'd" by a human, they simply were offered the leftovers after the human consumed what they desired. I think it is just ironic that a human would consider the innards the "waste" product of the animal; a beneficial symbiosis if you look at it on the dog's benefit. We all know the Alpha eats first which is why dogs are such perfect "primitive" companions. I highly doubt that anything went to waste back then, and it was fresh!
I also think about how our modern day chicken is processed and made available via our grocery. The birds are fed poor/cheap consistent food. They are given alot of hormones to boost the growth rate and fat production. Then after processing they are dipped through a bleach solution based on USDA methodology for proper human health guidelines and for a more lengthy "freshness". It is quite nasty just thinking about it. Clearly anyone who has had a true "farm-raised" animal would tell you the clarity of taste that comes through versus what we eat today. It is just like eggs. Store bought eggs are tasteless compared to fresh eggs coming from "bug eatin/free-ranged" birds. The quality of taste and nutrition are directly linked to the natural kingdom, even in our own backyards.
I am not saying that anyone is right or wrong in this matter, but I do hope that I made a few "common-sense" observations that might help those considering diets. I personally do not know the true extent based on the one dog that I managed to bring to the geriatric stage, but I cannot help but think that 13 or 14 is a young dog. I guess folks that live to 60 are old, but not in my eyes LOL. Heck, I am still trying to break the record for the longest-lived chicken (the record now is 14). My oldest hen is 8-years-old this coming Spring.
So, aside from my long-winded observations, I wanted to hear from folks about eggs, milk, and cheese. Are these products on your dog's menu? Also, are any of us here allowing their dogs to "intuitively eat", whereas they provide a constant food source? I have been witness to dogs who "guard" bones or food aggressively, often gorging or eating fast when food is offered. These dogs seem to be fed infrequently and it seems as if the dog acts as if any morsel offered is it's last. Although, based on wild dog behavior "he that does not eat fast eats less" so I guess it may be a normal pattern that I just have not had to go through with either Rudi or my previous dog.
Ok, I probably missed info that would make my rambling more of a dull ache, and I do hope that I have not offended anyone's sensibility in these matters, but I wanted to get this out. So let me know about the eggs, cheese, and milk; I half imagine that there is a post I missed that already mentioned this, so link me if you can.
Thanks for enduring this one, Ron (smiling)
Comments
I even heard that the incidence of girls menstruating as young as 6-years-old is a frequent occurrence. I cannot for the life of me imagine why????? Must be those fun "Mac-Meals".
All this brings to mind the occurrences of "Feminization" of male offspring across the animal kingdom. Please reconsider when using estrogen-based chemicals such as "Round-Up" on weeds.
Ok, enough of me LOL, Ron
I have given Ninja and Portia raw eggs with raw before. But like you said - I never give them any "goodies" - I have only given them the meat and bones.
Portia eats fast...so fast that she would somtimes choke on her food and throw it up. I switched her to a different kibble that was bigger so she would actually chew - haha. It seems to have worked though. But, when I feed raw - Ninja goes at it like there's no tomorrow and Portia eats extremely slow.
I feed Pong Pong kibbles in the morning along with human food. She seems to value the human food more but she doesn't guard it if it's a meal. However.. when she's begging for food and my silly friend decides to drop a piece of chicken on the floor between 2 dogs.. all hell breaks loose. What is weird is that with treats, she won't fight for it as much as higher value foods.
Pong definitely does gorge food like crazy. She can finish a meal within 5 minutes and have the plate cleaned by then. Fortunately, she eats slow enough that she doesn't throw up anymore (that was a pretty big problem when she was little). However, she still has a bottomless pit for a stomach. I'm not sure but I believe she was probably the runt of the litter and that may have affected how she views food. She has never starved (as you can probably tell from the pictures.. she might need to uh, exercise a bit more..) but she will never stop eating if food was offered to her. I don't know if that's a psychological issue or a physical problem.
I do not feed them dairy. Mostly because it is pretty expensive to give him quality dairy (hormone free, happy cow or goat style). And frankly being vegan dairy REALLY grosses me out.
Having only had rescues with the exception of Miko, free feeding has never been an option. Not to mention serving real food as opposed to dog food it would be REALLY stinky in our house.
And Michael Phelps is oddly disproportionate. As are many young people. I see it in young women so much now. They are no longer naturally hour glassed any more, they gain weight primarily in the mid section (which is not really supposed to happen until your 30's), young women now are developing breasts before they are 12 years old. And I firmly believe it is a reflection of the hormones added to meat and dairy products.
I think that's all I had response to. You gave us a lot to chew on.
I do not feed my pups raw meat, however, on occasion they do get cooked liver (cooked by someone other than me, as I am vegetarian and can not stomach the sight of raw meat). They do get raw (and cooked) eggs that are organic, free-range. And on occassion, they get goat cheese. However, milk is a no-no (gives them terrible gas).
As for people food, I am a vegetarian, so I do not worry about hormone injected meat. However, I do on occasion eat a hard cooked egg. But I will not eat store bought eggs, they have to be organic farm fresh. One day I would like to have a couple of laying hens, but no farm animals allowed in our city limits. I eat goat cheese, and hormone free cow cheese. I am not a huge milk person, so I normally go with organic soy there.
All I really wanted to add was when we first went raw, we dove right into prey model raw, which is essentially formulating whole prey (muscle meat, organ, bone) for a complete balanced canine diet. We had a hell of a time trying to get the dogs to eat the raw liver and kidneys. They actually enjoyed things like spleen and heart (which is more muscle than organ) but the real essential organs - it was very difficult. We tried blending them with yogurt or cottage cheese, tried parboiling. It was a real hassle to get them to eat their 'salad'.
But things like Tripe, if you mixed anything with tripe - it was like heaven in their bowl. We've tried whole prey - whole trout and whole rabbit. They are still picky about the innards.
So now we are more BARF with three grain free kibble meals a week. It works out much better time and prep wise, I don't have to worry about missed nutrients by the great liver protests and I sincerely think they enjoy most veggies.
They get raw eggs on high bone days (like chicken drumstick days). They get cottage cheese on organ/tripe days, but that is the extent of my dairy portions for their diet.
Free feeding: we used to, but I think to measure who is eating what and in what quantity, it helps to have measured bowl feedings twice daily. It helps me keep track. Plus, free feeding with raw/homecooked doesn't really work out!
We had working dogs also. All the dogs/cats ate fresh eggs, rodents, grain, bread and milk and goat poop everyday. That's what was there to be found in between the kibble meals. My mom still has her 16-17 year old border collie from those days (she eats pretty much the same thing now). To be honest, the dogs had diarrhea and all the animals routinely had parasites. Aside from Maggie, most farming families I knew including us burned through their working dogs and pets fairly quickly but I think this was more from accidents than diet. During slaughter, we would let the dogs and cats have a go at the ofal figuring it was extra nutrients and that's what happens on farms anyways. All they ever did was sniff a little, lick the blood and stare at us "You want me to eat what? Can I have a turkey egg instead?"
I think it's totally fine to feed raw eggs and so on if done properly, but I just don't like buying any of it from a store. I would totally do a raw diet for my pets if I grew all the ingredients myself. I tried it, but I don't like the idea of buying meat or milk from a store, even for myself, because I don't know where it came from or who touched it or what the animals life was like, what it was fed and what hormones are in the meat. It's hard for me to even shop for myself, but we all have to eat and I don't live on a farm anymore, so a lot of my ideology has to go out the window for a while.
As to liver wars. I am trying to find a yummy delicious bait for Ike to use in the ring, and I see lots of show people using organ meat as bait, so I thought I would give it a whirl. I bought the liver (it reaks, it's disgusting) and I thought the dogs would love it. They both spit it right out and won't come near it. They look at me like I'm trying to poison them. What's all this baloney about dogs loving liver? I almost have to cram the organ meat down their throats unless it's mixed with tripe.
the parboil makes it even more stinky but less slimy. they might like it more then.
Lindsay - I know what you mean about shopping. Growing up on a farm with free-range, no hormone animals it's kind of hard to shop. There are few commercial farms in our area (at least to the extent I have seen them other places outside of Kansas), and I sometimes forget not everything I buy at the store comes from a farm like ours. I have started going organic or vegetarian anymore. We had a nice garden too, though we were not near as organic as you. I know dad used fertilizer on the crops.
Is it extremely important for the Nihon Ken to have fish in their diet? I have an aversion to fish - sight, taste, and smell, alive or not. It tends to make me extremely nauseous (sp??) and has since I was little.
I think they need some kind of fish oils in their diet, moreso for the health of their skin/coat. Our shibas love some fresh sardines as much as they do tripe!