Rabbit Coursing?

HeidiHeidi
edited December 2008 in Shikoku Ken (四国犬)
Has anyone ever thought about rabbit coursing with their shikoku? I see so many rabbits around, and Rakka chases them, but she never seems to notice them in time to catch them. Plus, when we're off-leash where there are rabbits, I'm always distracting her with tennis balls and playing. Maybe if I trained her to track a bit and we set out with the intent of tracking and chasing a rabbit, she could catch one.

I know there's some controversy over the humaneness of rabbit coursing, but I think that by buying dog food containing meat, I'm supporting some kind of animal being killed somewhere, I just don't see it. Aside from that, any rabbit Rakka kills would have been eaten by something, somewhere eventually, probably a coyote, which isn't that much different. Plus, rabbit is super healthy, wild, organic, enviro-friendly food if Rakka can catch some to feed herself and maybe the other pups, then I figure it's a good thing.

What do you guys think? I know this is a bit controversial, so let's just all remember to keep our nice forum voices. :-) I just want to have an open discussion about the topic.

ETA: feel free to talk about hunting any other animal, as well.
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Comments

  • okironokiron
    edited November -1
    Well the rabbit owner side of me is saying that it's sad for the rabbits to deal with being chased and possibly having a heart attack before getting caught and mauled to death.

    The other side of me is ok with the thought of doing it with any other animal so it'll make me hypocritical of voicing an opposing vote just because of the animal in question.

    I don't really know lol but would love to hear everyone else's take on it.
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    edited November -1
    There is a crapload of rabits down here in Irvine (near UCI). To the point where I can walk around campus at night and encounter at least a dozen of them within a 0.5 mile radius. If they're that prolific, I'm not opposed to a little human help in culling them here and there...

    Jesse
  • okironokiron
    edited November -1
    Well Jesse, rabbits go into heat basically while they're mating. They're sexually mature by 3 months old. They have litters of about 6 and their gestation period is only a month. They are ready to go for their next litter the minute they give birth. They can get out of hand very easily very fast.
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    edited November -1
    Hey Rina,
    Thanks, now I know that the saying "f#ck like rabbits" really does have some truth to it. But also, if you think about it, the proliferation of rabbits in any given area will invite nearby predators (coyote's) to step over human boundaries they normally wouldn't step over. So it's that fine balance we all have to watch out for.

    Jesse
  • ljowen123ljowen123
    edited November -1
    I grew up hunting and my brothers still hunt, so I've not a got a problem with that part. My biggest issue with hunting is that all parts should be used. My brother used to lead deer hunts where the people just wanted the kill, the deer were split between the guides and processed so that none went to waste. Those kinds of things bother me. My brother bow hunts now, instead of using a gun because of his skill level. My brothers and I are more likely to go to a gun range if we are in the mood to shoot. I still get various meat gifts from him every year (deer, boar, etc) and it usually fills my freezer. The reason I no longer hunt came from when I was 12. I had gone deer hunting with my dad and my brothers. I hit the deer but did not kill it. We tracked the deer for 4 hours before finding it. When we found it, since it was my hunt, I was responsible for the life of the deer and I couldn't kill it with it looking at me. At that point, my dad told me, he would not take me hunting anymore, if I could not properly take care of the animal. Since then, I've only gone to a gun range and left the hunting to my brothers.

    This is a controversial subject. I believe it is wrong to take the life of an animal for no purpose. Growing up, we had hogs, goats, chickens, and a couple of cows. My dad hated everytime that I named an animal as these animals were raised for our food (the goats were raised for milk) and he knew how hard I would take it when it was time for that animal to provide food for the family. My dad made sure that we were aware of why we did this (finances) and why we had to use all of the animals (to not be wasteful). I hope I haven't offended anyone with my comments, but I needed to share the back story to explain my next comment.

    Obviously, I would be in favor, provided you are able to teach him to return the animal to you. This way, you can properly process the animal and make sure that it is all used.
  • jikjakjikjak
    edited November -1
    i dont think there is anything wrong with it. this is what occurs out there in nature and thats why the shikoku has a hight prey drive. thats one of the things i love about the dog.
    id be very interested in training my future shikoku to hunt and track. i wouldnt know how though. if u find more info on it please share!
  • HeidiHeidi
    edited November -1
    LJ - I was thinking of just letting the dogs eat it, without processing it first at all. They're naturally equipped for it, and it exercises theirminds and jaws, cleans their teeth, and gives them a perfectly-balanced meal all at once. Retrieving it is important, though, because I'll want to bring some back for the other pups. I suppose I could eat some of it myself, too, but I question how much I'd like the taste of rabbit. Oh yeah, then there's the fur... I have no idea how to make use of rabbit fur! I should look into that!

    One thing - does anyone know if dogs can get parasites or diseases from eating rabbits?

    Eventually, I really want to go deer-hunting, but rabbit hunting is much more accessible to me right now. Deer hunting will have to wait 'til next year.
  • GreensageGreensage
    edited November -1
    Hi,

    I too am a rabbit owner. They are pets and there is a big difference in a pet and a wild rabbit. Mine are neutered and will never contribute to the gene pool.

    Rabbits are fast-lived animals. They have and always will be prey. They are equipped with flight instincts and will be quite crafty at getting away.

    If they were left without predation they would become diseased and old and that in my mind would be the most horrible life. Predation allows those that are strong and young to survive while the old and weak are given a more humane removal. I guess my only concern would be the expertise at which a pet (your shiba) would be at dispatching the prey. It is important that they not "play with their food".

    In my understanding a prey animal, a gazelle, a deer, a rabbit, and such is blessed with a function in their brains where they shut down any pain receptors. I know this is heresay, but I truly believe that when a lion or other predator takes down its prey the prey cannot feel the onslaught; it is my understanding that even we have this same ability as reported by those who have gone through immediate and traumatic situations. I have heard where a limb was ripped from the body and the person was not even aware of it until they looked at the void. Even then it isn't until much later that they feel the actual pain because endorphines are running so high, a natural functioning of trauma.

    Your approach is a good one with the kindness of a "hunter" if that makes any sense. However, if the numbers of rabbits decrease what would be the alternative? Pet rabbits that go unwanted? I think I would like to remain in the dark about that. I would just be imagining my little friends Ziggy and Thomas.

    I would be a little worried too that there might not be "selective hunting" happening and you might find a cat in the wrong place at the wrong time, or a coon which can inflict damage or even a skunk. Not that a shiba could not handle that but the bite could carry rabies from another predator. As for the parasites on a rabbit I would suggest researching Rabbit Hunting 101; from what I remember in my youth Winter is always the best time to avoid subcutaneous worms and such, but when I worked in a Rehab Center we would freeze alot of our donations from local kids and hunters.

    Wishing you luck in your adventures, Ron and Rudi

    ps, Rudi likes my rabbits. He thinks they are cute and cuddly and fun to sniff noses with, but if these darn squirrels don't watch out I am going to get me one ......Woof! He also walks around my freeranged chickens with no incidences and yet if those darn wild pigeons do not quit coming in the yard there is going to be a meal in flight. LOL (one day I will have to face this I am sure).
  • okironokiron
    edited November -1
    My main concern would be coccidia and then the various worms. My knowledge ends with domesticated rabbits so I'm not completely sure on wild rabbits.
  • jikjakjikjak
    edited November -1
    would keeping your dog up to date with all of his/her shots prevent it from getting some sort of sickness from eating a freshly caught rabbit?
    what would happen if a shikoku or other nihon-ken were to somehow tangle with a racoon. ive seen some roaming around from time to time.
    ive always heard that they can do some harm to large dogs with their sharp claws.
  • HeidiHeidi
    edited November -1
    I was thinking along the lines of training her to track rabbits by scent and hopefully that would focus her on rabbits. Accidental encounters with other animals could happen, but I imagine those critters stick more to the wooded areas. I'd stick with open fields because it'd be easier to see and less likelihood of injury. Of course, she might track a rabbit to a wooded area.

    Hmm... I just thought of gophers... a lot of farmers just sit out in a field with a gun and pick off the gophers because they're just pests to them. I wonder if Rakka could get a job as gopher-killer.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    edited November -1
    Just a quick note. I really wanted to do lure coursing with the shibas but the Lure Clubs only allow sight hounds recognized by AKC, etc. Most of our dogs have a high enough prey drive they could do well at chasing a track. It would be neat if we could set up a Nihon Lure Club, if someone had a large enough enclosed property where we could lay a track and dummy or flush real game. I thought lepto and rabies were adequate vaccines for hunting. You can always worm the dogs.
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    edited November -1
    I agree with LJ on the hunting issue, and I think Ron had a some good points as well.

    My 2 cents is that yes, you can train your dog to hunt 1 certain animal. It takes time and training, but it's doable. You definitely would want to work on that so you don't have your dog chasing anything and everything as you could have some nasty accidents ie skunk, raccoons or worse.
    Also, I'm not so sure about 'picking up the pieces' after your dogs have eaten. Dogs will usually mess up small animals quite a bit, and it would probably be quite difficult to do much with what's left. The better alternative might be to train them to catch/kill and bring it to you. That way you can also get a look at the animal before your dog scarfs it down, and possibly avoid them eating diseased animals etc.
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    edited November -1
    you might want to email tracy at hare-today.com about the parasite thing. I was told by a holistic vet to freeze wild game for 6 months before feeding and make sure the dogs were on a heartworm pill. we've had whole prey rabbit (fur and all fed to the dogs) from hare-today.com and some of my family's deer from last year (awaiting the spoils of this year :)) )

    you can dehydrate or freeze the ears and feet and head as a separate treat for the dogs too!
  • brandon_wbrandon_w
    edited November -1
    Talk of Rabbit Coursing reminded me of this:





    Is that going to be you Heidi, out in the field talking bets with the Pikeys?
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    edited November -1
    ha! snatch! loved that movie.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    edited December 2008
    Ah ha ha ha ha...I'm all over that!

    LJ, I totally understand where you come from. I grew up on a little farm and we had goats, rabbits, poultry, etc all for food purposes but to me they were always my pets. I could never eat any of them because I was always picturing how they last were at the moments of their deaths. The deaths were not always perfect and (edit-I don't mean to imply that while hunting LJ or her parents let animals suffer) in our weirdo place, the animals sometimes suffered a prolonged death while waiting to bleed out so my parents could make a point. My parents told me the same thing, "These are your animals so you are responsible for slaughtering them. You need to undserstand where your food comes from, in case of world war and all stores are shut down, blah blah blah, 2 years supply of food." It's stupid to let an animal suffer to make a point to a child, but if it's a dog hunting an animal as a prey item with the purpose of eating it and there is no undue suffering outside of what would normally occur for that prey animal anyways...
  • ljowen123ljowen123
    edited November -1
    My dad didn't let the deer suffer once we found it and I couldn't kill it. That was part of his point - if I couldn't handle having to do that up close - he wouldn't take me hunting anymore because it wasn't fair to the animal. I had a difficult time shooting rifles from the shoulder - I was a hip shooter (dad said I would have done well to hunt on horseback). The slaughter of the animals we raised was always very difficult for me. I was not involved in those because I was attached to them.

    The only rifle I own now is the one my grandfather had in WWII. I have a Glock 9 which is my preferred range gun.
  • KenshiKenshi
    edited November -1
    My personal take as a born-and-raised suburban American who was not raised by hunting folk is that there is nothing wrong with hunting animals per se. However, killing animals purely for entertainment seems wrong, so you better eat what you kill. Just show respect to the animal you killed and to your ancestors who HAD to kill or they would starve and you wouldn't be here.

    By extension, if you want to train your dog to hunt, you better intend to take him hunting. Training a dog to kill for entertainment seems just as wrong as taking pot-shots at squirrels with a varmint rifle. Which admittedly is the kind of thing that people who were not raised as I was have no problem with.

    I think if you asked somebody who kept rabbits as pets about this they'd be right to ask you how you felt about dogfighting or training your dog to hunt and kill cats. Though I don't feel rabbits have the same status as cats and dogs, and I am okay with applying different ethics to the treatment of traditional american "totem" animals: dogs, cats, horses, and other animals.
  • okironokiron
    edited November -1
    Well Cliff, she did ask 2 people on this forum who keep rabbits as pets and both of us have voiced our opinion. I do not see rabbit hunting the same way as dog fighting or teaching a dog to kill a cat. She's not taking rabbits from pet shops and releasing them for Rakka to catch. Wild rabbits and domesticated rabbits are so different, I really don't consider them to be the same thing. Call me morbid but I have no problem feeding a dog rabbit meat and keep rabbits as pets at the same time. Different mentality. One is a loved family member, one is food.
  • KenshiKenshi
    edited November -1
    That's interesting. I don't think it's morbid, though. Rabbits are actually pretty tastey if done right. They're also very cute when hopping around.
  • asiaasia
    edited November -1
    Rabbit is actually one of the few "typically" hunted animals I could never bring myself to eat because we had rabbits as pets when i was little - one was actually leash trained. I am kind of intrigued by this discussion regardless.

    "I would be a little worried too that there might not be "selective hunting" happening and you might find a cat in the wrong place at the wrong time" - Does this happen often?? Our farm dogs hunted on their own occasionally, but seemed quite adept at distinguishing "pet" from "prey" or one type of prey from another (as they would eat/hunt rabbit but not opossum), so just curious. Of course, they were also LGD - so I'm sure that made a large difference.
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    edited November -1
    THats an interesting point, Amber. We had a pet rabbit dropped in our yard last year and I was convinced that if we brought it in the house it would end up dinner for the shibas, so we kept it contained outside out of the elements until it got adopted. I am 99% sure it would have been in harms way if the shibas were given free reign around it, but I'm 1% skeptical, they might have wanted to give chase like they do foster cats but do no harm.

    Interesting...
  • ljowen123ljowen123
    edited November -1
    A friend of mine has hunting dogs (a bluetick coonhound & beagles), I've never heard him tell a story where they brought back the wrong prey. I've just texted him to find out if they ever have. He works with them and trains with them.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    edited November -1
    Grandads bird dogs, and the gun dogs (setters of some sort), were all notorious cat killers. He always told us to never let the cats in the dog area but they were fabulous on the hunt or else he wouldn't have kept them.
  • ljowen123ljowen123
    edited November -1
    Curtis says his dogs just go after the rabbits and ducks, he's not had problems with anything else.
  • sunyatasunyata
    edited November -1
    Hmm. This is an interesting thread. And while I feel that animals should only be hunted in extreme cases of necessity, I am going to leave my opinion at this:

    Has anyone ever read the book "Watership Down" by Richard Adams? (This is probably my all time favourite book, and I have read it hundreds of times and even have an autographed first edition.)
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    edited November -1
    Autographed??? How much? (kidding, sort of). I love Richard Adams writing-most of it, and Watership Down is an all time favourite. Have you read The Plague Dogs? It gives you an entirely different perspective. I think of Watership Down often when I remember what it was like for me on the Farm and having rabbits.
  • ShikokuSpiritShikokuSpirit
    edited November -1
    I had rabbits as a child. And just recently (a few years ago), Adonolas, a rabbit that I adopted from the animal shelter. He only lasted about 6 months and then died -frowns-.
    - Mia and Adonolas 1
    - Adonolas Sitting Pretty

    Anyways...so long as the "hunted" and "killed" rabbit does not go to waste, should be "okay". Some past kittys of mine use to hunt and eat wild rabbits. I would worry about parasites though. It would be better to get rabbit stock that is free of parasites for food for your pack (dogs) and/or your clan (cats). There are breeders for "feeder rabbits". Or maybe you can capture a few wild rabbits and have them checked out for parasites and dieases?

    Rabbit Coursing would be fun for the chase though. I'm not sure that Kei-kun or Komi-chan would kill small prey. I know Lynx would. I think my Shikoku like to go for the "big stuff" like SHEEP!
  • brandon_wbrandon_w
    edited November -1
    You could also be PC and set up a lure coursing area on your land. So they are chasing plastic bags and not rabbits.
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