So, to answer Romi's initial question, it really comes down to: 1. Your living arrangement 2. Your pack size 3. Your pack's purpose/expectation/goal 4. Your individual dogs and their individual temperaments
and based on that, really - no two people will ever have the exact same scenario or explanation - as seen on this thread... how interesting is that?!
- - - - - -- - - The difference in Loa/Ahi - do you think that comes down to the perceived differences in kurogoma vs. akagoma lines?
Also, do you think Masha and Luytiy may differ in ways like Ahi and Loa? One with less of a drive, one with more pet qualities, etc? Or with CO's, is it all about the training/grooming/conditioning process? Will Big L be responsible for molding a successful Masha or will you be?
Jen - I think it has a lot to do with the kurogoma vs. akagoma. Not so much the color, just the lines that produce the color(s). From my experience with the Shikoku I have met, the darker colored [kurogoma] examples seem to be sharper and higher drive.... but there is such a small gene pool of the dogs in the US that it could have more to do with who/where the kurogoma lines trace back too and not so much the actual color.
As for Masha and Luytiy, from chatting with Masha's breeder there should be no difference between the 2 from a workability or temperament standpoint. They both fall into the "bear type" category. There are other "types" of CO like the "lion type" and the "aboriginal type". I don't have much detail on the "lion type" but I know the "aboriginal type" is a much sharper dog than the "bear type" - that's not to say the "bear type" is not a man-stopper tho.
Masha is a red, and from what I have read, and been told by my breeder, the red color CO tends to be sharper towards humans.
I think Masha will actually help Luytiy, and not the other way around. Luytiy is a very confident guardian and is also very confident with dogs, but he has some social anxiety. Masha, on the other hand, is not afraid of anything and appears to be very balanced in public and in new situations. She is also very good at "speaking dog". So I think in the long run she will help to calm Luytiy's social anxieties a bit - he was under socialized when we got him, so that is the result.
Kotomi and Shoushuu have their time together and so do Lynx and Shoushuu. I just don't allow "off-leash" interaction between Kotomi and Lynx. You have to remember it's only been a month and Lynx needs much more time to "settle" with Kotomi. I'm trying not to be too optimistic so it may take a couple of years and a few more dogs before I can allow the 3 together unsupervised <--- Lynx does better in a pack situation but not without "proper introduction" and "desensitizing her to the new puppy/dog" I'd be asking for a recipe of trouble and failure if I just threw the 3 together.
So a "getting use to each other" integration process is already in motion. Kotomi already LOVES Lynx (and Shoushuu) but Lynx isn't quite so certain of this "puppy affection" just yet. I have them in wire crates next to each other with Lynx in the middle of the two (when they are inside). Shoushuu was a bit easier to introduce to Lynx, she still growled at him a few times, very typical. She seems more well-adjusted with him though when he was a young pup. Whereas she seems a bit "reactive" with Kotomi still. So, I just need to give her some time to "relax" and get use to the idea that this puppy is apart of the pack now. I'm sure eventually Lynx will "give in" to her cuteness, hopefully. Give it another month or so and then they can have short "play sessions" on leash. With gradual time increase with each session and always, always ending on a "good note".
---> While Lynx use to play with all kinds, genders and sizes of dogs it seems she now prefers the boys but it doesn't mean she can't get along with a females (eventually).
Baby Lynx with my female German Shepherd:
Lynx at 7 months at the Dog Park with her friends (both females):
I use to be able to just "toss her in" with dogs at my old work and friend's dogs up until about a year and half of age. You know what though? She was good when it was just us and my GSD. And also when Lynx was the only dog in the household. I didn't truely start running into "problems" until we started living in a multi-dog household. I think she picked up a few bad habits. We had a dog aggressive male Rottie (neutered). The female Rottie and Lynx just didn't get along. She only got along with the male Malinois. So she's been pretty "selective" about her playmates.
Shoushuu is pretty easy-going and not very reactive at all. So I can pretty much throw him with any dog and he's fine. I don't think adolescence has hit just yet (meaning he's not unrulely) and he's already 1 year almost 4 months of age. Hopefully, he doesn't change! Kotomi seems to be heading in this direction as well.
I haven't caught up with all the posts yet, but I did read Brad's first post and we use the same tactic for our pups. When we're out of the house, the pups go in the shop uncrated, but together. They both are very typical Akita with their separation anxiety, so we can't keep them apart, or hell will break loose. The other day, we left them in the basement/shop of the new house and they managed to close one door and got separated! Oops. We came home three hours later with Keigo barking, carpet ripped up (which we were going to do eventually) and molding bitten up. I'll take pix when wee unpack my camera.
As many of us know from experience, Nihon Ken play pretty rough and loud. So it gets pretty crazy around here. Sometimes the playing turns into a scuffle, but they work it out. If, however, one of them yelps, I do intervene. However, with the baby coming along, I am confining their ability to play to certain areas of the house - the basement and outdoors.
Jen, I agree, no 2 packs will be the same. But I think how us humans allow them to interact would be somewhat similar. So far it seems that everyone except Corina (i'm not singling you out!) has pretty much the same method. This is why I find Corina's method so interesting. She does do things differently and I think it's interesting to learn how different people live in their multi-dog households on a daily basis.
Corina - I am quite interested in your method of living in a multi-dog household. I see your points and I understand your reasoning...but from what I have learned from behaviorists and from reading in books - your methods seem to contradict what my behaviorists have told me.
I am a firm believer in Consistency and Routine. I think dogs are most happy with a daily routine and also do best with consistency in training/rehabilitation. I am going to disagree with you on" "no socialization" is much better then "bad experiences during socialization". It's easier "to train" then to "fix" bad training." No socialization opens up a door for the dog to create bad behaviors. Aggression, fear, anxiety, stress, territorial, etc. If your dog has a bad experience during socialization, it's important to not coddle. It's a simple question. Is it the dog who is afraid to meet new dogs after the incident? Or is it the human who is worried of what might happen? Most times, its the human. The human lets their own fear get in the way of the dog. The human will stop socializing out of fear and isolate the dog from any encounters and actually probably make the dog more fearful.
There are so many socialization tools available now. Not just the dog park. There are daycares with supervision, group obedience classes, friends dogs whom you can trust,etc.
I don't think a dog has to be playful with every dog they meet to be social. To me, being social is about being able to be with other dogs. They don't have to play with them or interact with them the whole time. But being able to be comfortable with new dogs is social. Going up to be sniffed and being sniffed.
When you mentioned "too caught up in drive = dog not thinking clearly" - This basically means she's past her threshold. In order to make things positive, you should only let her interact when she's calm. The more excited/anxious she is, the closer to her threshold she is. Obviously, our goal is to not go past her threshold because of what you said "too caught up in drive = dog not thinking clearly". Which also goes with "force". You said that you "forced" her to interact with dogs that she wanted nothing to do with and that made her uneasy and insecure. I think by you taking away consistent socialization after an incident made her insecure. (coddling). I think if you kept being consistent with the socialization, she would eventually learn that being around new dogs is normal.
I think it is harder to make an under-socialized dog social, rather than starting off with sociailization and being consistent regardless of what incidents you encounter.
Brad and Maui are a great example. Maui was attacked at a dog park. Like most owners, Brad and Jen coddled Maui. Maui then became very reactive, especially with black dogs. When Brad and Jen added Ahi to the pack, Maui wanted to kill Ahi. After a while he accepted her. As Jen and Brad kept adding to the pack, Maui started to be less and less of an issue. This is because of Brad and Jen's consistency with adding new dogs as well as learning not to coddle Maui anymore. Now he is living with 10 other dogs without a problem.
My behaviorist told me that I should never give up. If Ninja has a bad reaction to something, re-direct him and end on a good note. However, this doesn't mean avoid whatever the incident was that made Ninja have a bad reaction. This just meant to take it slower. Instead of getting 5 feet from a dog, start 30 feet away and when you get to 20 feet with no reaction, end the session. Slowly get closer and closer, but watching his body posture and body language to be sure that we don't push him past his threshold.
So I guess my question would be: "why are you waiting?" .
As I feel it is not nesscessary to "force" the puppy on her. She'll accept Kotomi in her own due time. I'm not going to set them up for failure. It takes time and patience.
And it's not that she can't be around other dogs because she can. She just doesn't like strange dogs coming up to her face. And that's fine. How would you like it if some random stranger came up to you suddenly to lick you in the face or give you a hug? Wouldn't you feel that invasion of space and be uncomfortable? To some, it may appear as an "act of friendliness" and to others as an "act of aggressive behavior".
Oh, no...I didn't immediately remove her out of the situation with the Newfies. She was afraid of them because they were so big. She was just a little pup then and I wasn't sure what to do, but the Newfies were no threat so I kinda "forced" her to say "hi" <--- there's that whole invasion of space but I didn't know it then. We still spent long hours at the dog park even after this, they were "semi-regulars" but she never wanted to interact with them on her own.
Yes, I still <i>figure that "no socialization" is much better then "bad experiences during socialization". However, that doesn't mean that's what I practice. It just means that I don't allow any bad experiences to occur. Tis' what I try to prevent so that only good experiences can be made. Malinois are very easy to form habits, like a "3 strike rule", after the 3rd time it's difficult to correct, so if it can be prevented from happening then it should.
Maybe someday I can write a book. What I do is not so uncommon at all. The more involved you get in something, the more your mindset changes. It has to do with experience, the dogs, the environment and the people around you. This is what I've learned. It's also what works.
We all may have different ways of handling things, but reguardless of our aspirations for ourselves and our dogs, I think our goal is the same. We just take different paths in order to get to that point - harmony among the pack.
I'd like to know what all this 'interaction' consists of! My dogs seem to sleep. All day. LOL! They are loose during the day and are limited to the center level of the house. I work from home 2-3 days per week and I can't imagine that they do vastly different things while I am gone vs. when I am home.
I guess that's why they are so good looking! It's that 18 hours of beauty sleep! Lazy Laiki!
I setup a spycam for the dogs when I'm gone. Other than the occasional poo snack (ahem), Beebe has an initial burst of energy (pacing, chewing, barking) then settles into licking herself and snoozing. Ike sleeps mostly after his initial tantrum of being left behind. It is pretty boring.
Comments
1. Your living arrangement
2. Your pack size
3. Your pack's purpose/expectation/goal
4. Your individual dogs and their individual temperaments
and based on that, really - no two people will ever have the exact same scenario or explanation - as seen on this thread... how interesting is that?!
- - - - - -- - -
The difference in Loa/Ahi - do you think that comes down to the perceived differences in kurogoma vs. akagoma lines?
Also, do you think Masha and Luytiy may differ in ways like Ahi and Loa? One with less of a drive, one with more pet qualities, etc? Or with CO's, is it all about the training/grooming/conditioning process? Will Big L be responsible for molding a successful Masha or will you be?
Thank you all for the great insight and information!
As for Masha and Luytiy, from chatting with Masha's breeder there should be no difference between the 2 from a workability or temperament standpoint. They both fall into the "bear type" category. There are other "types" of CO like the "lion type" and the "aboriginal type". I don't have much detail on the "lion type" but I know the "aboriginal type" is a much sharper dog than the "bear type" - that's not to say the "bear type" is not a man-stopper tho.
Masha is a red, and from what I have read, and been told by my breeder, the red color CO tends to be sharper towards humans.
I think Masha will actually help Luytiy, and not the other way around. Luytiy is a very confident guardian and is also very confident with dogs, but he has some social anxiety. Masha, on the other hand, is not afraid of anything and appears to be very balanced in public and in new situations. She is also very good at "speaking dog". So I think in the long run she will help to calm Luytiy's social anxieties a bit - he was under socialized when we got him, so that is the result.
----
So a "getting use to each other" integration process is already in motion. Kotomi already LOVES Lynx (and Shoushuu) but Lynx isn't quite so certain of this "puppy affection" just yet. I have them in wire crates next to each other with Lynx in the middle of the two (when they are inside). Shoushuu was a bit easier to introduce to Lynx, she still growled at him a few times, very typical. She seems more well-adjusted with him though when he was a young pup. Whereas she seems a bit "reactive" with Kotomi still. So, I just need to give her some time to "relax" and get use to the idea that this puppy is apart of the pack now. I'm sure eventually Lynx will "give in" to her cuteness, hopefully. Give it another month or so and then they can have short "play sessions" on leash. With gradual time increase with each session and always, always ending on a "good note".
---> While Lynx use to play with all kinds, genders and sizes of dogs it seems she now prefers the boys but it doesn't mean she can't get along with a females (eventually).
Baby Lynx with my female German Shepherd:
Lynx at 7 months at the Dog Park with her friends (both females):
I use to be able to just "toss her in" with dogs at my old work and friend's dogs up until about a year and half of age. You know what though? She was good when it was just us and my GSD. And also when Lynx was the only dog in the household. I didn't truely start running into "problems" until we started living in a multi-dog household. I think she picked up a few bad habits. We had a dog aggressive male Rottie (neutered). The female Rottie and Lynx just didn't get along. She only got along with the male Malinois. So she's been pretty "selective" about her playmates.
Shoushuu is pretty easy-going and not very reactive at all. So I can pretty much throw him with any dog and he's fine. I don't think adolescence has hit just yet (meaning he's not unrulely) and he's already 1 year almost 4 months of age. Hopefully, he doesn't change! Kotomi seems to be heading in this direction as well.
As many of us know from experience, Nihon Ken play pretty rough and loud. So it gets pretty crazy around here. Sometimes the playing turns into a scuffle, but they work it out. If, however, one of them yelps, I do intervene. However, with the baby coming along, I am confining their ability to play to certain areas of the house - the basement and outdoors.
Corina - I am quite interested in your method of living in a multi-dog household. I see your points and I understand your reasoning...but from what I have learned from behaviorists and from reading in books - your methods seem to contradict what my behaviorists have told me.
I am a firm believer in Consistency and Routine. I think dogs are most happy with a daily routine and also do best with consistency in training/rehabilitation. I am going to disagree with you on" "no socialization" is much better then "bad experiences during socialization". It's easier "to train" then to "fix" bad training." No socialization opens up a door for the dog to create bad behaviors. Aggression, fear, anxiety, stress, territorial, etc. If your dog has a bad experience during socialization, it's important to not coddle. It's a simple question. Is it the dog who is afraid to meet new dogs after the incident? Or is it the human who is worried of what might happen? Most times, its the human. The human lets their own fear get in the way of the dog. The human will stop socializing out of fear and isolate the dog from any encounters and actually probably make the dog more fearful.
There are so many socialization tools available now. Not just the dog park. There are daycares with supervision, group obedience classes, friends dogs whom you can trust,etc.
I don't think a dog has to be playful with every dog they meet to be social. To me, being social is about being able to be with other dogs. They don't have to play with them or interact with them the whole time. But being able to be comfortable with new dogs is social. Going up to be sniffed and being sniffed.
When you mentioned "too caught up in drive = dog not thinking clearly" - This basically means she's past her threshold. In order to make things positive, you should only let her interact when she's calm. The more excited/anxious she is, the closer to her threshold she is. Obviously, our goal is to not go past her threshold because of what you said "too caught up in drive = dog not thinking clearly". Which also goes with "force". You said that you "forced" her to interact with dogs that she wanted nothing to do with and that made her uneasy and insecure. I think by you taking away consistent socialization after an incident made her insecure. (coddling). I think if you kept being consistent with the socialization, she would eventually learn that being around new dogs is normal.
I think it is harder to make an under-socialized dog social, rather than starting off with sociailization and being consistent regardless of what incidents you encounter.
Brad and Maui are a great example. Maui was attacked at a dog park. Like most owners, Brad and Jen coddled Maui. Maui then became very reactive, especially with black dogs. When Brad and Jen added Ahi to the pack, Maui wanted to kill Ahi. After a while he accepted her. As Jen and Brad kept adding to the pack, Maui started to be less and less of an issue. This is because of Brad and Jen's consistency with adding new dogs as well as learning not to coddle Maui anymore. Now he is living with 10 other dogs without a problem.
My behaviorist told me that I should never give up. If Ninja has a bad reaction to something, re-direct him and end on a good note. However, this doesn't mean avoid whatever the incident was that made Ninja have a bad reaction. This just meant to take it slower. Instead of getting 5 feet from a dog, start 30 feet away and when you get to 20 feet with no reaction, end the session. Slowly get closer and closer, but watching his body posture and body language to be sure that we don't push him past his threshold.
So I guess my question would be: "why are you waiting?"
And it's not that she can't be around other dogs because she can. She just doesn't like strange dogs coming up to her face. And that's fine. How would you like it if some random stranger came up to you suddenly to lick you in the face or give you a hug? Wouldn't you feel that invasion of space and be uncomfortable? To some, it may appear as an "act of friendliness" and to others as an "act of aggressive behavior".
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Oh, no...I didn't immediately remove her out of the situation with the Newfies. She was afraid of them because they were so big. She was just a little pup then and I wasn't sure what to do, but the Newfies were no threat so I kinda "forced" her to say "hi" <--- there's that whole invasion of space but I didn't know it then. We still spent long hours at the dog park even after this, they were "semi-regulars" but she never wanted to interact with them on her own.
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Yes, I still <i>figure that "no socialization" is much better then "bad experiences during socialization". However, that doesn't mean that's what I practice. It just means that I don't allow any bad experiences to occur. Tis' what I try to prevent so that only good experiences can be made. Malinois are very easy to form habits, like a "3 strike rule", after the 3rd time it's difficult to correct, so if it can be prevented from happening then it should.
Maybe someday I can write a book. What I do is not so uncommon at all. The more involved you get in something, the more your mindset changes. It has to do with experience, the dogs, the environment and the people around you. This is what I've learned. It's also what works.
We all may have different ways of handling things, but reguardless of our aspirations for ourselves and our dogs, I think our goal is the same. We just take different paths in order to get to that point - harmony among the pack.
I guess that's why they are so good looking! It's that 18 hours of beauty sleep! Lazy Laiki!
Brad - didn't you say you set up a webcam to see what Kaia and Maui did while you were gone and found them to sleep pretty much all day??
Ahi on the other hand would chew, and circle, and pace... all day.
----
sometimes, when the pits arnt in the house
my two shiba inu, spends all day with my rabbit =]