Shikokus learn so fast!!!

edited February 2009 in Shikoku Ken (四国犬)
Kenzo pulled on the leash at first, but already on day two with just a few corrections he has learned to move at just the right pace. He always watches my legs to keep in rhythm and looks back when he wants to go a little faster. If he gets ahead and is corrected he will look and wait until i catch up.

Impressed at how fast they learn!

Comments

  • edited November -1
    They are creepy smart, aren't they? Our Shikoku are always amazing me.

    We have found they respond very well to clicker training and the "touch" technique [where you train them to touch your hand w/ their nose] too.

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  • edited November -1
    I think that is a trend with all Nihon ken. Yesterday I taught Sasuke "bow" during his dinner with a 7/10 success rate. My Akita learned quickly too.
  • edited November -1
    Yea, mos def.

    All the Nihonken are smart and fast learners. Each breed learns differently tho.

    Shikoku seem to have an easier time problem solving than, say, a Shiba. They also learn very quickly from other dogs. Our Shikoku will see us teach a dog to do something, then later our Shikoku will offer that behavior to us. Most of Ahi's early training she learned from sitting in a training class and just watching the other dogs [we signed up to late to get in the class, but the trainer let us sit in for socialization].

    Akita are extremely astute at reading a person's body language and seem to have a balanced, steady, train-ability. They are easy to train to do most anything and each thing you train them to do they learn at the same rate as the last thing. They also offer behavior quicker than our other dogs.

    Kona, our Kai, he is a hard one to train. It's hard to motivate him, but once he is motivated he learns things even faster than our Shikoku. He also is a very dedicated worker - teach him a routine and he will perform that routine w/o asking him to do so perfectly - as long as the routine is fun for him [like chasing birds off our property, or piling sticks in an area - he moved 25% of the tumble weed I had to clear last summer - good little helper].

    Our Shiba are funny. They learn very fast, but only if it's worth it for them. lol. "Oh, if I sit you will give me some love - ok I'll sit all the time"... "wait, I have to lay down now for attention? Forget that, I'll just sit, ok?"... The trick with shiba is to make it fun, they LOVE games. Shiba also like negative attention, which is kinda strange when training them early on. You have to ignore things or they will learn that doing "x" means you pay attention to them.

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  • edited November -1
    my shiba inu did that and i was amazed too. perhaps the energy i am giving off now is lacking but she pulls quite a bit now. a complete 180 from the first couple months that i walked her. i even moved to a choke chain and shes still loves to pull.
  • edited November -1
    Im gonna stear clear of the choke chain comments....

    My two shiba are the same as Brad described. They are attentive and will do their commands IF there is something in it for them! And I have noticed the negative attention thing as well. If Sake REALLY wants something and I don't give it to her and then she sits or lays down for it I do give it to her she realizes she just has to listen and sit and I will give her what she wants instead of freaking out barking at me for what she wants (because then she doesn't get any attention!).
  • edited November -1
    Yes, Shikoku are really fast learners and very good with clicker training. Kuma is really smart and really into learning precision obedience. Right now we are working on the dumbell holding on command (until told to "give") for obedience trials as well as the holding of a metal object (also in obedience trials). The clicker training works really well and he is very quick to pick up what I want.

    Vahid, if you didn't see my post earlier in the week, this is a super training site and it works really well with Shikoku.

    http://www.dragonflyllama.com/ DOGS/ Dog1/levels.html
  • edited November -1
    William, please avoid using a choke chain, especially on a small dog like the Shiba. It can cause severe damage to them, especially to the trachea. Try a "Gentle Leader" Harness instead, they work wonders WITHOUT causing harm to your dog.

    Vahid, that's awesome! I hope all your future endeavors go just as well! :) ~
  • edited November -1
    We finally had to move to a harness for Keiko too - she doesn't pull on the leash normally, but if there's a person/dog/squirrel/leaf she likes to lunge. Just not worth risking her hurting her neck.
  • edited November -1
    Thanks for the helpful information guys, I will switch immediately.
  • edited November -1
    Kris-Isn't dumbell work rewarding (wink)- Beebe (shiba) learned faster than any of the retrievers/GSD in our class and could complete a directed retrieve in such a short amount of time, because she always got treats for the hold and the out on command, but her interest faded quickly when she realized after 4-5 repitions that she would rather spit it out and do her other tricks instead of sit there with a plastic thingy in her mouth. (Bored) Your Kuma sounds like he has a little more patience and more drive to please you. The frustrating thing now is that I can't progress on to flat retrieves and retrieves over jumps until she has a rock solid hold and out. Sigh, that's the only way to keep it interesting though. Do you do any games with the dumbell work to keep it interesting?
  • edited February 2009
    Lindsay, I haven't done any directed retrieves with the dumbell yet, he is actually just learning. What I am doing is teaching him to hold lots of different objects on command (in addition to the dumbell), even things he doesn't like to hold (like a metal spoon). That is still a work in progress. That website I posted has lots of good suggestions.

    I find that (at least my) Shikoku is much more willing to please than the Siberians I had in the past, who sound more Shiba-like. They got bored easily with this kind of stuff. If Beebe were mine, I would practice on teaching her to hold other things beside the dumbell (to make it more interesting), retrieving in different patterns, mixing it up. ie, not just doing the "official" test pattern. That way, when you go to class and do the "test pattern" it isn't so boring because she does not do it at home as much. I would also do variable reinforcement of treats for her training sessions (ie, sometimes every 3X she does it right, sometimes every one time, sometimes only after she has completely finished an exercise). I would build up to longer periods of concentrated working without treats, while still keeping the reward at a variable rate. Research has shown that dogs, horses, rats, etc work harder if the rate is variable and they can never guess when they are going to get a treat.

    http://chiron.valdosta.edu/whuitt/col/behsys/operant.html

    But, I have to say, the fact that you have Beebe doing the dumbell retrieve at all is super, given Shiba's very independent nature. Kudos to you!
  • edited November -1
    I found that he stopped pulling when a NO command was given at the EXACT time I would tug back whenever he pulled. He instantly learned.

    Any delay between the action and the command and they won't link the two together. Have you tried timing your commands like that?

    Another example, Kenzo liked to play-bite our wrists as a greeting. At first telling him no would just get him more excited. Then I tried letting him grab my wrist THEN telling him a loud NO the very second he grabbed it. He immediately got the picture and instead put his mouth on my wrist without biting down at all. He now always does it that way. Pretty smart!

    I'll try the clicker training. Thanks for that site Edgewood- I'll check it out and let you know how it goes!!
  • edited November -1
    Rakka had horrible leash manners when I got her, but she, too, learned quite quickly to be more polite. Especially considering how seldom I walk her on leash, you'd think she would forget, but she remember things quite well. The long nihon ken memory is both a blessing and a curse.
  • edited November -1
    Yes, Vahid, with negative reinforcement (which has it places too), the no must be given very close to the behavior so that the dog knows what not to do. I know that Kuma is very sensitive to "no" and it really has an affect on him and diverts the behavior that I do not want. He gets upset with himself when he hears "no" and tries to not do that behavior again (so as not to get the "no" from mom). The time of the behavior and the stimulus (whether "no" in negative reinforcement or the "click" in positive reinforcement should be timed as close as possible to the behavior that you want to change (in neg reinforcement) or train (in + reinforcement). Hope that helps.

    Oh, and yes, Shikoku LOVE to do the arm biting as a greeting! Mine never bit down, only mouthed your arm. But it sounds like you are on the right path that Kenzo is now only mouthing your arm. I just let my guy do it to greet me when I come home, he is very gentle. I think that both of Brad's Shikoku do it as well (and I think that others with them have posted about it, I just for sure remember Brad talking about it).

    :-) Take some more pictures of Kenzo too for us!
  • edited February 2009
    Kris-thanks for the suggestions, I will definately try to mix up the objects a little to keep her interest. I do tend to over-rehearse the test pattern, probably a no-no with a dog that gets bored easily. I started her on the "take" and "hold" whenever we were just sitting around doing nothing, watching tv. She got treated everytime she touched or mouthed the dumbell, eventually they just put it their mouth once the treats are harder to come by. Ike was able to "take" in under 5 minutes. Will definately be changing things around now to keep their interest. I also realize I need to be more consistent with the variable rate treating. Thanks again for the tips.
  • edited November -1
    Hi Lindsay

    Here is another good (dog training) site which talks about variable reinforcement and its benefits!
    http://www.clickandtreat.com/ff07.htm

    good luck.

    Remember, patterns get boring, better to mix it up. If you always mix it up but still ask and reward precise behavior, when you go into the ring to compete, your dog will still do well. :-)
  • edited November -1
    Rakka does the arm bite to me, and I let her, but she knows that she has to stop if I say so. Luckily, she doesn't do it to other people! She doesn't put any pressure at all, but I don't want people getting the wrong idea.
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