Yes, most of our dogs come from Champion lines. All of our Akita come from champion lines yet they are riddled with health/genetic issues... so I'm not sure I would place much value on champion bloodlines when selecting a companion.
When you're working with a reputable breeder, I don't really think it'll matter if the dog has champion lines or not because if it wasn't a healthy dog, the breeder wouldn't be breeding them to begin with.
I personally think of that guideline as something for people who don't want to fully research on something themselves. It's so someone can be like, "Oh, this dog is of champion lines, I'll go with him" kinda thing. This is a personal opinion and only relating to people who are looking for a companion animal though.
I agree with you that going "oh this dog is from champion lines" and then pulling the trigger on a dog is lazy. it could be a ZHD champion or champion of a backyard dog show, health screeing and meeting both parents is more important. I just thought it would be a matter of pride among some of the owners on the forum, seeing as if they got their dog from reputable breeders, and it seems a good deal of the reputable breeders show their dogs. Also it would seem to me that those reputable breeders that show put a great deal of time in effort into producing a healthy dog that epitomizes the breed standard.
So i guess the question I'm trying to ask is. Is there anyone on this forum, who has a healthy dog purchased from a reputable breeder, who also shows their dogs (the breeder not the owner), that is from a champion line?
We're going through a breeder who has bred many champions...when we asked about health issues, she was pretty insistant that you are getting a living, breathing, animal that may come from excellent lineage, but could still end up with health issues. She gurantees the health of all the puppies she sells and does have proper health certifications on all the dogs she breeds, which certainly lessons, but does not eliminate the possiblity of getting a dog with some of the more common genetic faults that are pre-disposed to Shibas....but I think it's pretty clear that a byb, who does no testing, is more likely to produce dogs with genetic health issues than a reputable breeder...but no breeder is ever going to say that they've never seen a health issue arise in some of the dogs that they have bred, champion or not.
Jazz is from champion lines and was a show dog - she was pulled from the breeding program (before she was ever bred) due to allergies. She lacks 2 points from being able to use the title Champion. Her breeder does still do shows, but not so many anymore.
Both of Kuma's parents are champions in a few countries. His mother was also best in show and best in a specialty show.
It's a kind of nice thing to know but nothing major. The fact that they were both certified healthy dogs is much more importatn, as his the fact that they have wonderful temperament, that Kuma seems to have inherited.
I should also mention that while Jazz has the lines and points from her own shows, she's extremely dog reactive as well. The breeding part is only half of the issue - the other part is how well you socialize your pup with other dogs & with people. Jazz loves humans, she was very well socialized on that, but she doesn't know very much about playing with other dogs.
Ike is a really nice boy to live with, loves other dogs and has been pleasantly free of any health or poor temperment issue (aside from what cannot be resolved with continued socializing-some fear of men). I am so thankful that he came from what I feel is a great breeder and home who put the effort into showing her breeding dogs to their championships and performing their health checks, because he is a product of that. He has not yet earned any points toward a Ch., I am having way too much fun going to matches and handling classes with him right now:)
Sasuke and Ninja have a history that is unbeknown to me. Ninja was a "spur of the moment" purchase when my parents wanted a dog to keep us company when we come home from school and wait for my parents to come home. They both knew I loved Akitas and instantly fell in love with her. She is also very healthy at 8ish years and is the friendliest dog ever. She also warmed up to Sushi very very quickly.
Sasuke was adopted by me from a couple who bought him from a pet shop. He does have a few issues that I'm trying to curb but aside from that, he is a very healthy boy. I love his personality when he is not growling at me lol. This might be from the owners doing something to him or if the breeder took him away from his litter mates sooner than 8 weeks... Speaking of which, I need to check on the dates.
My family and I love them both to death and will not trade them for any dog in the world!
As far as championship bloodlines: before I rescued Sasuke, I talked to about 20ish breeders. I will go out on a limb and say that at least 14ish of them have said they had championship lines. The other people tried to distract me from the subject or were just BYB to begin with.
Here's how I see it: a breeder should title their dogs in some way. Whether that means conformation, obedience, agility, hunting, depends on the breeder's interest. If none of the dogs in the line are titled, they better have done ALL the tests (CERF, patellas, etc) have their dogs looked over by other breeders, and have a really, really good reason to give as to why their dog is worthy to be bred.
My new pup is not of immediate champion lines, but I'm good with that. The Breeder bred 2 of her females. One was a repeat breeding of a champion female to a champion male that had produced many champions in past litters. and the second was to male (which is the son of the previous champion mother mentioned) and a sesame who has not shown. I can not say for certain if the father had shown since his mum was a champ. I actually much perfer the litter I'm getting a pup from. The sesame mother tested much better than the champ mother did on hips and eyes (excellent vs. good). Also although they are the same price and most definately will be great pups, I dont want to deprive a possible owner from a great show dog just cause I want a companion. I am never planning to show so personality (not looks) is what drives my decision.
i agree with everyone, health and behavior trump fancy titles. It's no good saying my ankle biting shiba with bad hips comes from a champion line. I just still thinks it's cool. It's nice to know your dogs family tree. It's like my grandpa Jack, the fact that he was in WWII, I'm proud of that.
I'll be proud to say, "yeah that's my shiba ductaping your three year old to the tree, he's from a reputable breeder, healthy and generally well behaved, oh an yeah his mom and dad were champions! put that in you pipe and smoke it mr designer dog, dog owner" or something like that. you know what I mean.
I'd be more impressed with a well-trained mutt than I would with an unruly beautifully championed shiba.
I am always fascinated with relationships, and the ones dogs form with their owners cannot be hidden with all the Coach collars or overpriced accessories of the world. I can admire the beauty and near epitome of representation a dog can show in appearance, but I would be absolutely floored with envy and jealousy if that same dog were obedient, happy, and healthily co-existing with their owner.
But that's me, I liken champion bloodlines to boutique name-brand products. It's not for everyone.
Also, the one thing any shiba will teach its owner is humility (in spades). So if/when you get one, I would be surprised if you'll still have that prideful attitude you've indicated about one-upping a designer dog-owner. A shiba will humble you. I guarantee it.
I thought he was referring to a 3-year old designer dog...not a 3-year old child. I'm not foolish enough to pit any dog against the unpredictability of a toddler:)
the only reason i mentioned designer dogs is because i think its silly to pay thousands of dollars for a puppy mill mutt when you can go to a shelter and rescue a dog for less
Comparing things and one-ups-womanship is a human obsession and in human nature, especially when it comes down to our pets/kids/homes/possessions,etc. It's fun to discuss where a dog comes from as long as the info isn't used to justify breeding a dog that really ought not to be bred, just because it has a champion/s in the recent pedigree or way back (specifically concerning pet store/BYB shiba).
There aren't a lot of generations of shiba in the US that were born, bred and shown here, so chances are actually pretty good that a pet store/BYB shiba purchased in the US could actually have an AKC champion as a grandparent or great grandparent. I have seen this in at least 3 pet store shiba pedigrees from dogs born in the mid 90's. There were champions in their pedigrees from top shiba breeders (how the offspring ended up as breeders in a puppy mill, who knows.) Regardless, I don't feel the CH title says much about a dog unless the actual dog has earned the title him or herself.
thanky you lindsayt, that's exactly what I was asking in the in the first place. It's fun to talk about where you dog may have come from, even though shibas haven't been in the US for that long, and were saved from near extinction in japan before the war, it's cool to be able to look back and say oh this dog comes from here, to me it's the same as a family tree. It's cool to say oh I had this person in my family way back when, but it doesn't define you as a person, or make you better than anyone, it's something nice to know. It seems like some people are taking this the wrong way. If I had the white stratocaster that Hendrix played at Woodstock, it would be right up on my wall. I'd take it down and say, check this out, Jimi played this, at Woodstock! It wouldn't be a bragging thing, like oh look at the cool materail possesions I have, it's more of a... man this is a piece of history, it's just a piece of wood and metal, but to me it's important, not because it's worth money . But because it's seen history.
Thank you (even though I had nothing to do with it!). I was really blessed to get Jazz the way that I did - her breeder gave her to me under a spay contract because of the allergies. The only other thing I had to do was drive the 7 hours to pick her up & she was mine. I think she's a very pretty shiba and understand why she did well in shows - she has a bit of arrogance in her look and it shows when she's on parade.
Comments
----
I personally think of that guideline as something for people who don't want to fully research on something themselves. It's so someone can be like, "Oh, this dog is of champion lines, I'll go with him" kinda thing. This is a personal opinion and only relating to people who are looking for a companion animal though.
So i guess the question I'm trying to ask is. Is there anyone on this forum, who has a healthy dog purchased from a reputable breeder, who also shows their dogs (the breeder not the owner), that is from a champion line?
It's a kind of nice thing to know but nothing major. The fact that they were both certified healthy dogs is much more importatn, as his the fact that they have wonderful temperament, that Kuma seems to have inherited.
Sasuke was adopted by me from a couple who bought him from a pet shop. He does have a few issues that I'm trying to curb but aside from that, he is a very healthy boy. I love his personality when he is not growling at me lol. This might be from the owners doing something to him or if the breeder took him away from his litter mates sooner than 8 weeks... Speaking of which, I need to check on the dates.
My family and I love them both to death and will not trade them for any dog in the world!
As far as championship bloodlines: before I rescued Sasuke, I talked to about 20ish breeders. I will go out on a limb and say that at least 14ish of them have said they had championship lines. The other people tried to distract me from the subject or were just BYB to begin with.
I'll be proud to say, "yeah that's my shiba ductaping your three year old to the tree, he's from a reputable breeder, healthy and generally well behaved, oh an yeah his mom and dad were champions! put that in you pipe and smoke it mr designer dog, dog owner" or something like that. you know what I mean.
I am always fascinated with relationships, and the ones dogs form with their owners cannot be hidden with all the Coach collars or overpriced accessories of the world. I can admire the beauty and near epitome of representation a dog can show in appearance, but I would be absolutely floored with envy and jealousy if that same dog were obedient, happy, and healthily co-existing with their owner.
But that's me, I liken champion bloodlines to boutique name-brand products. It's not for everyone.
Also, the one thing any shiba will teach its owner is humility (in spades). So if/when you get one, I would be surprised if you'll still have that prideful attitude you've indicated about one-upping a designer dog-owner. A shiba will humble you. I guarantee it.
Jesse
Jesse
There aren't a lot of generations of shiba in the US that were born, bred and shown here, so chances are actually pretty good that a pet store/BYB shiba purchased in the US could actually have an AKC champion as a grandparent or great grandparent. I have seen this in at least 3 pet store shiba pedigrees from dogs born in the mid 90's. There were champions in their pedigrees from top shiba breeders (how the offspring ended up as breeders in a puppy mill, who knows.) Regardless, I don't feel the CH title says much about a dog unless the actual dog has earned the title him or herself.
It seems like some people are taking this the wrong way. If I had the white stratocaster that Hendrix played at Woodstock, it would be right up on my wall. I'd take it down and say, check this out, Jimi played this, at Woodstock! It wouldn't be a bragging thing, like oh look at the cool materail possesions I have, it's more of a... man this is a piece of history, it's just a piece of wood and metal, but to me it's important, not because it's worth money . But because it's seen history.
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2340&page=1#Item_53
is Jazz's family tree.