Leash expectations
So all of you have/want/will soon have Nihon Ken, and just about everything I have read says that these dogs should not be off leash in public. Is this correct? Unlike myself, you know this going into your planning for life with your dog/s - and you expect it. Do you ever feel they are missing out on some basic dog right (a-la Merle's Door), or do you sort of feel like it just goes without saying that *of course* these dogs are attached to you in public? It has taken me a long time to realize the real cost vs. benefit of Sage's off leash action, but it was my expectation going into our life that all dogs can be trained to attend to their handler (ie come) sufficiently to enjoy life off leash. I am still learning about Nihon Ken, and I think all of your perspectives will help me adjust mine! 
I mean, you don't fall in love with Kais and expect that you will spend and hour and a half at the dog park every sunday afternoon running off lead and making new friends, right? You don't get an akita and think he will be like a lab, following you around town and welcoming everyone he meets with jumps and slobber, right? Otherwise, you'd have fallen in love with a lab, right? You expect certain behavior, a demeanor...
I mean, you don't fall in love with Kais and expect that you will spend and hour and a half at the dog park every sunday afternoon running off lead and making new friends, right? You don't get an akita and think he will be like a lab, following you around town and welcoming everyone he meets with jumps and slobber, right? Otherwise, you'd have fallen in love with a lab, right? You expect certain behavior, a demeanor...
Comments
But that aside, I never really had a desire to allow my dog to be off leash in an area that isn't fully enclosed. From my previous experiences with dogs growing up, it has given me the idea of 'if you unleash a dog in an open area don't expect to see it again'. But this also doesn't mean that I want my dogs always tethered outside the house, I just want to make sure there's no risk of them disappearing. The scariest thing is when a dog escapes the leash and starts running towards heavy, heart sinking as you expect what may happen. Twice this happened to me with a friends dog, and both times he was smart enough to turn around before going into the street.
Dog parks are a fairly new thing around here as well, the first 'real' dog park being built in 2005 (or around that time). When I was thinking about what dog to get, oh so long ago, the idea of a dog park never crossed my mind. And I know that if I ever got a dog that would not enjoy places such as dog parks, I would find other means of giving it 'freedom'.
Luckily for my guys, we have access to the backyards of several friends and family for them to romp around in. These yards give them a 'new' place to romp and explore in.
I personally love having my dog on leash in public, as apposed to off leash, makes me feel more secure and in control should anything happen.
To compensate, we do a lot - and I mean a LOT - of walking/hiking.. every day 2-3 times a day we walk. We try to hit up the 4 different state parks in my area at least once a week each and really try to make each time we are in or out of the house mentally and physically stimulating for them and myself. I have a 12ft and a 20ft lead for them (my female gets the 20ft, male gets the shorter) for exploring, going through creeks, running in a field.. anything we can do but we just don't do off leash. You gotta be creative to get around that rule!
I have always worked with "damaged" dogs, and off leash has never been an option. It is because of poorly trained/monitored off leash dogs that my dog Piglet and Miko are TERRIFIED of ALL Golden and Labrador Retrievers. I am at the point that regardless of whether I have my dogs with me, if I see an off leash dog any place where I know there are leash laws I get very upset.
Piglet loves the woods. Walks in a beautiful heel. And I can't take her there often because there is always some person 50 feet behind their dog, who is bounding towards us going "don't worry he is friendly!" well MINE ISN'T and she is scared now at the dog charging at her. And if my dog defends herself, she can be taken from me. How is that right or fair?
Then there is my shikoku, who I wouldn't trust to walk the ten feet to my back yard off leash. All I need is the right bunny rabbit to dash and bye bye puppy, hello road pizza.
I have a fenced in yard for the off leash frolics and Miko has play dates pretty regularly to get those zoomies out.
So do I feel like my pups miss out? No. They are given so many joyful moments so often. I am always insuring that they are getting lots of mental stimuli. Most of my rescues I have had to actually teach HOW to play. Once you see Piglet (a dog who was used as a breeder bitch in a fight ring, who new so much suffering, got adopted by us, had to have ACL replacement surgery, and then had her best friend die) "happy roll" in the grass and frolic next to MIko, you can tell she doesn't think she is missing anything (except maybe the pizza crust in the street I won't let her eat).
I know the basic safety and leash laws bit, which are obvious, I am wondering now this may be a rural-urban thing and not as much a breed thing. I am sure reading these that if I lived in the city/suburbs I would have different automatic expectations that I have been operating with. Do those of you who live in the country take them places off leash? I have been beating myself up for years over the off leash thing- needlessly, apparently! It is a very off-leash culture here that I am in here...and I am changing my ways and expectations b/c of Sage.
My views are a little warped because I always have had "broken" dogs. I pick my dogs by who gets killed if I don't get them. Miko is and will always be my only breeder dog, and she was a wake up call. We had no trauma to transcend.
I think we will have LOTS to talk about next week!
I grew up in the Poconos before out-of-towners started to over develop the area. Our first dog, a beagle mix named Woodsie, would run off leash (and intact!) and come home every night - baying to let us know to open the door. One day Woodsie didn't come back. We lived near a huge wooded area with big open fields (hunting areas) and I can only assume he'd been hit, mauled, shot, or picked up by a hunter who needed a dog. Our second dog (still alive at 14y/o) was a female rat terrier. She would get off leash and romp for hours then come home. She is still incredibly reliable off leash and in her old age doesn't leave the yard boundaries anymore. We never trained her to do this, she just does it and I trust her to keep the habit when I'm at my moms.
I learned the hard way to keep a dog on leash, moving from 'the country' to 'the city' as an adult, my first foster was a border collie mix who took off like lightening as soon as I let her run around the yard.. she hopped the 4 foot fence and there she went.. she had no focus and I bought a retractable leash and tie out for the yard.
After getting a foster basset hound, I realized the fault in retractable leashes should a rabbit scent go into the road, and once I got my first shiba learned how fulfilling life at the other end of the leash could be.
Like Jess said, with a lot of ingenuity for places to go and things to see on my part, I really don't think my dogs are missing out on much as dogs restricted to the leash unless a designated, fenced in off leash park is available. In fact, since they live in my world on my terms, I think it helps our bond to fully make sure we are all enjoying our time outdoors on either end of the leash.
That being said, I hope my next dog will be trainable off leash. I'd like to get a dog I can take hiking and teach a solid recall, a dog I can take packing, and a dog I can train to flush birds (and off leash activity). We shall see... its a far cry from a typical nihon ken!
I get very frustrated with people who don't obey fence & leash laws. Yet, there's nothing that I can do about offenders.
I grew up on a farm in N Minn. We always had (usually just one) dog. The dog never had a leash. It worked fine. Neighbors were far enough away, well known to one another, and no one was into poison or shooting as far as I know. I don't recall that any of our dogs ever went missing or suffered a calamity or injury of any sort.
Now I live in a suburb of Mpls. We have leash laws here, and I keep our dog, Josephine, on the leash all the time when she is in my care and when in town (this is me speaking). My husband, on the other hand, keeps our dog off the leash whenever possible, even here in town. He has had a few heart-stopping moments with Josephine, and of course I tell him how irresponsible he is. He is nevertheless thrilled to no end to see her take off after a rabbit (even caught one last winter and he obliged by skinning and cooking for her), a duck or a goose, etc. She is very friendly with dogs and humans, but minds surprisingly well (will sit and stay on command if someone is approaching, etc.). We are lucky to live near a high school with a nice berm, fenced fields, etc. so this is where most of the off-leash activity takes place in town.
Then we and Josephine are so lucky to have that farm where I grew up. She gets to be back in that wonderful world of no-leash at all times whenever she is at the farm. She has spent many hours daily in the woods with my husband (and me sometimes), roaming the fields with us, etc. Now mind you, she does not get out of our site, and she most often strongly desires to be in the house or just loafing on the deck or under it when we are doing the same. In other words, she is not so pre-disposed to just wander of on her own.
I think much is not so much about breed characteristics as it is about the training and socializing when it comes to the risk associated with off-leash. We were fortunate to find Josephine (and same was true for a prior doggie, Joe, who died of cancer a few days before Josephine came into our life) when she was just a young pup (10-12 weeks old), so we did not have to deal with healing a broken doggie such as Jessica described.
I hope my comments are helpful, and I do not like to take risks with my doggie when there are the hazards of cars, many people, other doggies around, etc. It seems there is not so much at risk in a solitary country place where there are virtually no cars, lots of acreage to roam and a doggie who wants to stay by her humans...
Now imagine you've got a dog whose breeding tells him or her to try to stay within half a mile of the pack leader, and be a good dog and get lost until you find something to kill.
That said, I do enjoy off leash work in a variety of known, and what I feel to be secure settings with 1 of my Shiba Inu. This has taken a lot of work and instead of risk a "failure" I would just rather let her drag a long line or go on a flexi lead but in safe areas she is totally off lead. She appears to enjoy herself just as well, and my stress level is reduced when she has a line on her. I know she can heel and I know she can recall under distress/mega distraction, so I don't feel the need to constantly test her. It's most important to me that she be able to safetly and immediately stop when I ask and recall in the event that the leash fails, not because she never wears one. I don't think that's fair to her, or very safe. The male is intact and it just isn't safe (I do let him off leash sometimes at the dog park when it's empty, or I know the other dogs).
Honestly, I don't think dogs are "missing out" on being off leash if they get adequate, supervised playtime in their own yard. Being on leash in public places is for their own safety. Dogs left to their own devices can be hit by cars, shot at, be nuisances to the neighbours... who knows what else.
I'd have to say it takes a lot of work, and extreme vigilance when training them, trying to foresee every possible situation they could get into, and training around it. It's especially difficult here in Japan, everything's cramped, and there are cars everywhere. In my mind cars are the biggest danger. If I'm somewhere where my dog could end up in a car's path, the dog stays on leash. My big Newfie mix had other issues, he was huge and some people would be intimidated by him, so he stayed on leash anywhere we might run into people. I'd have drivers pulling their cars over to ask if he was a bear.
The only dogs I've had since Cyrus have been JRT's, and my last one Sophie was extremely well trained, an excellent hunter as well. She could be going nuts chasing boar and I could call her off. It took A LOT of time and effort to train her.
That being said, anytime a dog is off leash, there is risk. There are too many unknowns to plan for everything. Every time I allow a dog I own off leash, my radar kicks into gear and the entire time I'm focused on where my dog is and what it's interested in. I reckon when we introduce an animal to our urban environment we accept the responsibility to keep it safe from said environment.
If I lived in the States where you actually have yards, and dog parks, I'd be in heaven. As it is I have to pick my spots carefully. With Haru, so far I haven't found her to be any easier or harder to train off leash. She's much more aware of where I am than any other pup I've owned, never wanders very far away, and is always checking to see where I'm at. But, she is a lot more strong willed. If she's thirsty, she'll ignore me and go to where she knows there's water, THEN she'll come back. She always knows where home (or the car when we're out) is, and sometimes she'll just decide she wants to start heading back.
Regardless of a dog's breed, there are too many reasons TO keep a dog on leash when in public. I think there are great examples of why in this thread, comments about herding breeds, dogs like Piglet, and just the fact that most places there are leash laws. In Japan, the only time a dog is legally allowed off leash is when hunting. I guess I'll know more as time goes by training Haru, but I don't foresee training her to be too much more difficult than training any of the other dogs I've had (off leash). Would I walk around in urban settings ie around the neighborhood or in town with her off leash? Definitely not, and I wouldn't do it with any other dog either. I do think dogs should be able to stretch their legs and really take off running, but I don't think it matters too much to them whether they're in a large fenced off area or actually out in the woods somewhere. As long as they're getting that release I think that's all that matters. I just like running with them, and the mountains are funner for me :P
###########################WALL OF TEXT ENDS HERE####################################
P.S. I'm probably going to be ordering a Garmin Astro GPS collar for Haru when the hunting season rolls around (I'll sleep easier knowing I can keep tabs on her)
I brought Sage into this when I got him (age 4 months) and I thought this would be as good for him as it had been for Reilly, and he'd enjoy the playtime and the exercise and learn from the other dogs we knew. He did for a while, but several bad things happened to him that never happened to Reilly- he got pinned by a grumpy springer one day, leaving a bite on his throat; he rolled while playing with two other dogs and accidentally slipped his kneecap very painfully; he was boxed by boxers and pinned by a huge one named Louie; he was mobbed by an aussie shep and two border collies for no physical damage but much fear. The bad times balance was now too great for him and though he loved his friends his anxiety with new dogs appearing became large.
Why did I keep bringing him to the Field? Because he did enjoy it most of the time, and because the culture around me was that dogs will sort it out, and when I talked with the other people about it, they'd tell me I was paranoid and he was fine and it was MY worrying that made him stressed out and reactive. Quit worrying about it, they said. He's fine, its just dogs being dogs. I did not want to take him away from the dogs that he played with and was friends with, and that was where they were.
Both of my dogs are big and brindle, but Reilly is a very different person- she is confident and cool and this projects all around her so that nobody is confrontational with her to begin with. Many dogs are not worth her time, and she doesn't care, and those who are likewise powerful lords and ladies are sized up, news is exchanged, and respectfully they part ways. Sage was a wary guy from the start and I think the other dogs knew it and in the playground atmosphere there they knew whose buttons to push to get a reaction. Dogs who would never dream of looking at Reilly would get in Sage's grille, herding types in obedience class and agility stared at him and set him off. The agility trainer asked us to leave class and when we returned he told me, "It's his BREED- they are all like that, from the akitas down to the little chins!" I tried to focus him and position him away from the BCs but I learned later we were waaay over threshold in situations impossible for him to succeed in. We had to quit it ALL, and I really didn't want to hear that.
Sage was an adolescent now, and too stressed out with this social life and activities and began to be curt with dogs he could not avoid who would not leave him alone. His personal space discomfort zone is fair sized. One day in the Field he was sniffing some grass tussock and was crowded by two dogs and he snarled at them to back off, which they didn't- it was noisy and scary looking but there was no contact and the man who brought the two dogs stopped the whole thing by kicking Sage in the face. That was IT...
We had already quit classes, and we stopped going to the Field cold after that, but I still felt I was denying him some freedom and exercise. Now that I recognized I had a reactive dog, I was worried that he really needed energy drain worse than ever and I was less able to provide that since I had trouble every time I took him anywhere, on leash or off. I discovered some important books and worked with some fantastic people at that point and realized that what I had taken for adolescent attention-seeking misbehavior was stress, and that further I had to quit blaming him for not being able to control himself in a situation *I* bring him to that he can't handle (even though Reilly could). Even more, I had to quit blaming mySELF for not knowing what I didn't know and take it from here. I convinced my husband to fence the backyard, which IS the best thing in the whole wide world, especially in the snow and now in summer that we put in a sand pit.
I was afraid of the isolation having a reactive dog would put on me- all my friends were at the Field. Or were they? As it turned out, 4 of us began to meet up in places to avoid the Field Scene. We took them off leash to forests and parks that had few if any dogs. We made jokes about our dogs being too BAD for the Field, and the Field being too BAD for us. Sage did better with known friends only, but was still reactive to most unfamiliar dogs that still occasionally popped up. I was able to see that he was actually still stressing, though not reacting, just as we hiked with our friends. I reduced these trips to 3 a week. Then 2. Then 1 and this January I reduced these trips to once in a while. I took Reilly alone if I wanted to go with friends and left Sage home. (Sage would like me to say here that HE thinks we should all stay home and play in the yard only.)
I still felt bad that I put him through this way-inappropriate social life and that it took so long for me to learn enough and reconcile my own wants enough to draw down. I would begin to feel confident that I was doing the right thing by keeping him home, and then Merle's Door comes out, or I read the new issue of the BARK and feel terribly guilty that I am not able to provide him with all these doggie experiences. (I am SO done with the BARK magazine...) Or my sister would call and tell me all about the therapy dog stuff she does with her two, and the classes they take and how good the dogs are with everyone and everything- and it's true: her labrador Cleo is possibly a perfect dog. So I wrestle with: "Sage is who he is, and he is happier without all that, happier right here with me and Jeff and Raye and Reilly and the cats" vs "it is best for dogs to have xyz freedoms, activities, exercise, socialization and keeping them home is unfortunate and reflects poorly on you as an owner and handler that you can't do things with him."
So I needed to know what you Nihon Kenners do and expect, because I know you love your dogs and keep them happy and that like Sage they aren't labradors either, and I thank you so much for sharing with me about it.
Growing up I had a dog, a total mutt. I think he was an Afghan/Terrier mix. He was fairly well trained and I think he would have actually had a perfect recall if my dad hadn't scolded him every time my dog finally ran back to him....
This was when we lived near the woods. My dad then had to move to the city and still, my dog was off-leash for the most part. However, having gained all this knowledge, I admit it was very irresponsible and I would probably keep him on-leash whenever we got closer to a street but that's how my dog was raised by my dad. He got hit by a car once as his hearing got worse and probably his eyesight too. He survived and learned from it. Until his death he was the almost perfect off-leash dog, even in the city.
Still, I would not let any dog off the leash unless it was in a big open area that I know or a really well fenced in area.
"Sage is who he is, and he is happier without all that, happier right here with me and Jeff and Raye and Reilly and the cats" vs "it is best for dogs to have xyz freedoms, activities, exercise, socialization and keeping them home is unfortunate and reflects poorly on you as an owner and handler that you can't do things with him."
The most important mantra as a dog owner is "Know thy dog." If being out in public, around other dogs, or what have you stresses your dog, then you are not a bad owner for keeping them at home or limiting their interactions. In fact, keeping a reactive dog away from situations that could go badly makes you a better, more responsible owner than the people who let their rude dogs run free where they're not supposed to.
As far as Sage and his social needs, as a pet parent or even as a human parent, you have to weigh what is best for each being. It sounds like you possibly are still holding on to a bit of guilt in what you perceive Sage "shoulda/woulda/coulda" been doing. No justification is really needed. It is important not to get hung up on criteria for a social calendar which others have laid out. As with most things, many resources are there for the general information and not always to be followed verbatim in every case. For example if you have a special needs child or autistic child it sort of turns things on its ear for general advice. Everything must be modified and weighed. In your case with Sage, I’d say go with the flow and keep your dog safe. He does not deserve to be abused from others be it human or animal if he is not socially suave.
Really, I would relax a bit since it isn’t about meetings & marathon time lines like soccer moms, but rather enjoying the journey with your dog even if that is a simpler and quieter adventure and not part of the party. Again as parents we must use our wisdom to best meet the needs of our canine companions and kids. Things must be weighed by your particular circumstances and needs in order to help the developmental process not hinder it.
It sounds like you have come full circle in "knowing thy dog" : )
A decent publication is Whole dog Journal
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/ which may help you with particular issues in regard to Sage.
Snf
I used to subscribe to WDJ, and I liked it a lot, but I can't keep up- I am trying to recover from Dog-Publication-Overdose and read less, live more. Obsess less, enjoy more. I am letting Bark run out, and haven't bought a book from Dogwise since last fall...less field trips, more stay in the studio and draw.
of course this forum itself is addictive, so I have only replaced one dog-info-hit with another, but at least this one is about my actual kind of dog ...
http://www.slate.com/id/2086621/
I think there is some validity to this. Dogs should be taught to be calm. Exercise is great, exercise is necessary - but it can be a double-edged sword. The more one exercises, the more exercise it takes to get tired...Normal, adult dogs sleep - ALOT! Since I work from home some days each week, I have witnessed this. The most they do is switch dog beds.
I haven't read Merle's Door. Sounds sorta sappy.
The Laika Trio is only intentionally off-leash when they are far, far away from roadways, and civilization. Nowhere around Alexandria VA is a suitable off-leash area (we do not frequent dog parks). The recall is really a difficult concept for the breed. Mine have CGCs, have attended obedience, rally, and agility classes and have been shown in conformation, but in the great outdoors, they are HUNTERS. They also know the second there is equipment failure or when no long line is attached
They have been off leash at my parent's farm in IL, in remote areas in WI (where I used to live), and in northern New Hampshire with their co-owner. Some of these trips have been for hunting. Triepak and Guska also lived in Estonia for some time with their sire's owner and got to do some boar hunting. Obviously they were off-leash for that.
They have also gotten into TROUBLE. They have found farms and killed chickens (their co-owner had to pay for 40 replacements). They have harrassed a domestic pig and their co-owner had to pay for veterinary bills. They have quarreled with other dogs,gotten skunked, and been on the pointy ends of porcupines. They have killed cats. Heck they have killed cats, groundhogs, squirrels, oppossums, moles, and raccoons on their leashes! (This part is worrisome since in the state of VA, a dog can be labeled 'dangerous' if they kill a cat. They will be entered in the state's dangerous dog database.)
When in a wooded area, they have a good sense of direction and will typically check in or meet back at the vehicle. Despite that, we have had to leave dogs out overnight on occasion. Triepak didn't come in once during a coon hunt. We dropped a crate in the woods and came back the next morning to fetch him. He came out when he heard the truck.
I am always in a panic if I end up with a loose dog around here because there is so much traffic and I think it is easier for them to get disoriented. Guska got loose one night and was found THREE MILES from my house. In an area that we have never walked in. He was making a ruckus since he found an opossum in a garbage bin at 1:30 AM and some kind-hearted people brought him in for the night. I suspect he picked up a deer to get that far. He also lost his flat collar at some point on his adventure, so he had only microchip ID.
Even dogs that live in more rural areas can get into trouble if they are not livestock broke. Some neighbors from my childhood raised sheep. They would not tolerate dogs. They would follow the rule of Triple S - Shoot, Shovel, and Shut-up if dogs were harassing their flock.
So, these days, even in rural areas, Merle's Door is not very appropriate or realistic. I firmly believe that Laikas should not be allowed to make their own decisions all the time!
I suggest you read this instead: The Guilt-Free Dog Owner's Guide: Caring for a Dog When You're Short on Time and Space
(I haven't actually read this either, but the title amused me! Perhaps one of you out there has read it??)
That all of your (everybody's) NON-broken dogs are happy and fulfilled without off leash filed trips in the woods and parklands convinces me that this is therefore easily true for a broken half-kai too. I am feeling less guilty now. I'd feel even LESS guilty if I had a dog yard HALF as nice as Brad's.
A friend of mine has a Great Dane and a beagle mix and they never leave their house and fenced yard. She has absolutely no doubt that they are happy and as mentally and physically exercised as they need/want to be.
If you have ever read Caroline Knapp's book "Pack of Two," it illustrates a lot of my same 'am I a good enough dog-mom?' anxiety. She has a lot of additional issues I dont have, but a bunch of these questions are explored in there.