Japanese and american akita

edited May 2009 in Akita (秋田犬)
As far as I understand most countries in the world have divided akita into two different breeds but in USA and maybe some more countries they are still counted as one. Is there any plan of divide the breed in the US?
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Comments

  • edited November -1
    There is a Japanese Akita club in America and one or two breeders who are pushing for the breeds to be divided.
  • edited November -1
    Recently there was a vote about it here, I think. Tho I dunno what the outcome was.

    It's a very touchy issue here.

    At one point there was a split in the US, but then they merged the 2. It's a constant battle between the 2 sides.

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  • edited November -1
    I personally think if the American breeders got their hands on the Japanese Akita the split would have to happen, I don't know of anybody who has met both the American and Japanese and still thought they were one breed, they are so different!
  • edited November -1
    Yes I have understood that it's a touchy issue over there. I have added a few comment to a couple of youtube videos and the reactions from other peoples were sometimes very rude, so to speak.
    Do you guys know why the breed isn't divided? I've heard that if you goes to japan with an american akita they don't even call it an american akita, they say "great japanese dog". Strange that it's so hard to get along with it. But on the other hand, we are from different parts of the world with different points of view... ;)
  • edited November -1
    Well, the new name for the American Akita is the "American Akita", it used to be the "Great Japanese Dog". The FCI changed that a year or so ago, I think.

    Honestly, they are the same breed at their core genetics. It's just two VERY different types, and that is why it's split - but if you trace back to the birth of the Akita they looked much more like AAs than JAs. It was not until Morie Sawataishi that the Akita Inu type really started to emerge.

    So, we have a breed that evolved into 2 distinct types (even in Japan), and in most of the world they felt it was right to separate them into 2 breeds with their own set of standards, while in the USA the breed club felt it was more beneficial to the over all health of the breed to merge them and slowly shape the types to be one.

    If you look at the Akita in America today, and where it was before, you will see the head types of the Akita are moving toward the Japanese type (look). So, it seems things are actually moving away from the Shepard look of the American Akita and more toward the Japanese look just with a huge variation in color.

    Akita in America today very closely resemble the Akita from Japan in the Edo period (and before). Watching this merge is a lot like seeing history repeat, and watching the transformation of the Akita into the Akita Inu in Japan. It's kinda interesting.

    Anyway, I am not really for or against the split/merge. I prefer the look and temperament of the import type (the Akita Inu) but you will never see me argue one side or another - I don't want to be caught under any of those cross-hairs.

    I just wanted to give some of the background.

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  • edited November -1
    Thanks "brada", it was interesting reading! It's nice to read about how an american thinks about it.
  • edited November -1
    I have friends with American Akitas and of course I own an Japanese Akita. I may be wrong but all they are voting on is wether or not to put on a ballot a vote to split the breed. The problem I see in the US - is that a lot of the American breeders are starting to produce -tweeners. While looking for Kaeda, I received many emails that talked about a breeding program with just a or they . In fact that is how I learned about the Japanese Akita.

    IMO - a blends or tweener seem to loose the features that make each type so neat. Out of the group I visited, few kept the tight lips, the head was not defined as much. To paint a mental picture I saw one that looked like Kuma but with loose lips, squared torso, but kept the JA smaller shoulders. Another one was a brindle with a mask.

    AKC - should split into two breeds but as an outsider I just feel the temptation to blend will prevent it.
  • edited November -1
    so what’s happen during the dog shows?? I understand that more prefer is American type.. So if JA are so different how they can gain breeding powers???
  • edited November -1
    AKC just voted and the vote was 55% Do not split and the rest was for a split. In the US more prefer the American Type because that is all they have seen. When people see a JA, we get a lot of OOOs and Aaaas but I doubt any of them could pick out a mix. At the pet expo in Costa Mesa, there were a few mixes running around.
  • edited September 2009
    do u mean the ACA? My understanding is that it up to the ACA whether on the breed can be split in America..
  • edited September 2009
    When Yoshiki and I first came to the US and saw an American Akita for the first time (it was a family friend's dog), we thought it was a really 'ugly' (no offense, please) Akita who didn't look like an Akita at all. Only later when we found out there was a difference between American Akita and Japanese Akita, did we know that his friend's dog was actually pretty spot on for an American Akita. But neither the JA or the AA looks much like the Akita I see in old books and stamps and the Hachiko statue in Tokyo doesn't look much like either, too.

    But that's just me.
  • edited November -1
    http://www.northlandakitas.com/akitahistory/ahistory.htm That kinda sums the akitas history and different looks.
  • edited November -1
    Well even the Japanese refer to the modern JA as an improved breed. With regards to the Akita history goes - I do disagree with the comment on the GSD stereotype. The GSD influence came from two sources 1. people who during WWII breed with the GSD to hide the Akita from being taken away. (Pelts, lack of food, etc). 2. Early influence of the GSD, Mastiff, and Saint Bernard -before the animal was labeled as a national treasure.

    The Japanese were breeding the Akita for fighting as early as 1860s. So most of the photos you see are going to reflect the mixing that was being done during that time. In my JKC book, both Mastiff and Saint Bernard are cited as being used from mixing around 1868. I am willing to bet that most early photos of the Akita were taken around 1900.

    On a side note, I have heard(and read) that a small medium type dog from the north was used to help bring the breed back after World War II.

    RE the vote: Akitarise - I thought it was an AKC vote but it would not be the first time I have been wrong. I will double check.
  • edited September 2009
    yeah i read it was the hokkaido and the magati dogs from the mountains around akita...
    Regarding the shepardy look in the AA I think its a result of some breeders interpreting the standard differently or basically not caring. http://www.northlandakitas.com/aguide8.htm
  • edited November -1
    Health wise is one or the other type better off than the other ?

    By the way I was very impressed by the AA look in France, I love how they have tighter lips than those I've seen in NA
  • edited September 2009
    Well think of it this way. You have a type of Akita -AA which has evolved through two major mixings. Were talking from 1860 -2009 = 149 years. I am willing to be that your Akita come from a line that had very little GSD mixing. In fact the Akita in your photos look very much like the Akita shown in the JKC book.

    Speaking of Hokkaido, it appears that some Akita as well as the Matagi dogs, found their way into the Hokkaido region. (Late 1800s) I get the feeling that this is the same stock that was used when they post war Akita restoration was under way.

    I have always been amazed at how fast the non-JA colors (Pinto, black mask, etc) jumped out of the JA line after all those years of being mixed.

    When I get home tonight -I am going to try and scan some of those photos in as a point of reference.

    One minor edit - also it is important to point out that Northland Akitas was (I think they are not breeding anymore) a tweenie breeder. The northlands website is packed full of information but like a lot of things on the interweb...it is far from Gospel. For the record, while I am drawn to the history of the Akita, I do not support the mixing of the two types. Hence my thoughts and feelings are a bit biased and so is theirs.
  • edited November -1
    Just a FYI, it's Matagi, not Magati.
  • edited November -1
    Done - thanks thought it looked weird.
  • edited November -1
    If theres an American Akita...is there an American Shiba? Hmmmmmm......

    This kind of thinking also comes from the minds of people who placed the Shiba with the worthless dogs like Shar-peis etal...instead of the workers/hunters like the Husky.
  • edited September 2009
    What do you mean "worthless" dogs like the Chinese Shar-pei? .. Do you mean the Non-sporting group of the AKC?

    Most dogs in that category have historically had jobs. Not sure why the poodle is in there, or the Schipperke, either, but I know I don't consider them "worthless"..

    At any rate, the AKC doesn't separate Japanese Akita from American Akita anyway.. most of the other National kennel club of every other country do, though, including the 90+ countries that are part of the FCI.
  • edited November -1
    "Non-Sporting" actually means that the breed had a variety of jobs, not that they're worthless.
  • edited November -1
    I knew that would get some hackles up.

    Yes, non-sporting competitions.

    The JP Akita club in my area all find the American Akita style to be very undesirable and actually feel it is not the same dog whatsoever.

    Its like saying the Tosa is a Shikoku to them. Yeah, they have Shikoku in them...but damned if they're anything like them.
  • edited November -1
    Shar pei are one of my childhood breeds that I grew up with/still in the family. They were/are excellent watch dogs and fearless. They definately excell at their jobs. This breed has definately grown on me and the pups look like giant brains. It's too bad PEOPLE have misused/abused the breed and damaged it's health.

    I hope never to see a division of American vs Japanese type in Shiba.
  • edited September 2009
    I know that Northland akitas was a tweenie breeder. I've read their akita world interview but they provide more info on the Akita's history then any other site Ive found so far. You notice the change of color/type in the akita breed by looking at the Akihos photos.
    http://akitainu-hozonkai.com/award/award_all.html

    To be honest I dont consider the japanese akita to be the true akita any more then the american akita.
    To me its the same breed just one being refined more then the other. It annoys the hell out of me when i hear people say the AA is a mutt when the Akita breed itself was impure to begin with. i agree with Jack Burton, it is time that the ACA split the akita. Both akita's deserve the chance to be recognized in the US without having to compete against each other in the ring.
  • edited November -1
    I love both breeds, obviously I am passionate about the Japanese Akita, but I absolutely love the American Akita. I can't wait until I can add a nice big pinto with a black mask to my pack, they are amazing dogs!

    However I really don't think that they are the same breed. I often go for walks with a friend of mine who has a stunning, very well bred American Akita who I am very fond of, if you look at my Japanese next to her American, they look completely different, they act completely different, they are no more similar to me than an Akita is from a Shiba, they look the alike, but so do Huskys and Malamutes, Beagles and Hamiltonstovare etc.

    We had someone stop us recently and said, "Oh, what a gorgeous Akita!" to my friend, then turned to me and said, "And what is this one, a Husky?". Someone who could recognize an Akita didn't recognize my dogs.

    I'm not interested in debating the history of the breed, or which is the true Akita (I think they both are!), I just know what I see, I just look at my Japanese and friends Americans and it's as clear as black and white to me that they are not the same breed. Their temperaments are different, their shape, heads, ears, eyes, size, colours are different, I really find it quite strange that anyone still thinks they are one breed, I see more differences between them than similarities!
  • edited September 2009
    eh I tend to go by the history of a breed then by appearances. Selective breeding can change the appearance/temperament of a breed after many generations. Really it is up to the individual to decide whether both types are the same breed or not. I tend to believe its the same breed different types. But i do believe that both types should not be bred together. Both are beautiful the way they are. If it takes to splitting the breed in the US to preserve their unique looks then so be it.
  • edited September 2009
    Yeah of course, I respect everyone's opinion as long as they respect both breeds! :)

    The way I see the history argument, if you go back far enough in time all dogs breeds are just one breed! New breeds are being developed all the time, they evolve. If we are not allowing them to be two breeds just because they share some history we may as well say they are all just Wolves because all dogs share some history if you go back far enough.
  • edited November -1
    "To be honest I don't consider the Japanese Akita to be the true Akita any more then the American Akita."

    >> I couldn't agree more with this statement. Look back at the old photos, or even read the "Dog Man" book, the breed didn't look like the Akita Inu of today nor did it look like the AA. The overdone, unhealthy, couch potato that is the "Akita Inu" of today couldn't be further from the original working Akita. The AA is just as far removed as the JA is to the original "rustic" working dogs.

    I have seen a lot of Akita Inu, and some have been impressive dogs, but none of them, to me (IMHO), can be compared to the original rustic Akita. The original dogs where tough, strong, working dogs - they hunted bear and fought each other. They were so impressive, so powerful of a fighting opponent, that the people of Kochi created the Tosa Inu just so they could have a dog that could stand up to the Akita Inu! The Tosa Inu! I mean, that is pound-for-pound one of the most powerful dog breeds on the planet, and it's very existence is due to the impressive power and strength that was the Akita.

    Look at your Akita Inu or American Akita, and ask yourself if you think that dog lives up to the Akita reputation. Do you? (really I'm asking)

    I ask becuse this topic - the split - it comes up a lot, it has come up on this forum a lot. The topic always seems so silly to me because it always goes back to an argument of which breed was most like the original Akita, and the truth is, neither is like the original Akita. They are both refined and far removed from the original Akita.

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  • edited November -1
    "Look at your Akita Inu or American Akita, and ask yourself if you think that dog lives up to the Akita reputation. Do you? (really I'm asking)"

    That is something I have actually been thinking about lately. I also have talked to a few breeders recently about how the functionality of the Japanese Akita is getting less and less as they're bred for show which is such a shame, honestly I can't imagine any of my dogs having the strength, courage or power that we have all read about. I don't think the Japanese Akita of today lives up to the Akita's reputation, mine certianly don't! I actually think the American Akita lives up to it a little bit more than the Japanese does, but I completely agree that neither are all that much like the old Akita!
  • edited November -1
    smh like i said its up the individual to decide. I love and respect both types. But the fact is it didnt take hundreds/thousands of years to develop the japanese akita. It took 20-30 years to create the standard that the japanese felt was acceptable. American akita missed its chance to be "improved" when AKC closed the door to imports back in the 70s.
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