Major differences in Kai vs. Shikoku
If you would be so kind... 
I'm wondering about core differences in the breeds beyond appearance and size.
Like, differences in Workability, Willingness to Please, Acceptance of other dogs, Integration ease into a new family/pack, Potential health issues, Behavior tendencies, Tenacity, Drive, Alertness and level of 'care' to alert, Living space requirements, Exercise/stimulation needed daily/hourly/etc., Attachment to humans vs. dogs vs. both...
Comparing everything that makes these breeds everything they are, what are the core differences?
Thanks!
I'm wondering about core differences in the breeds beyond appearance and size.
Like, differences in Workability, Willingness to Please, Acceptance of other dogs, Integration ease into a new family/pack, Potential health issues, Behavior tendencies, Tenacity, Drive, Alertness and level of 'care' to alert, Living space requirements, Exercise/stimulation needed daily/hourly/etc., Attachment to humans vs. dogs vs. both...
Comparing everything that makes these breeds everything they are, what are the core differences?
Thanks!
Comments
I'll give my input soon, I need to think about it...
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Workability
> I would say they have the same level of workability, assuming you got a Kai and Shikoku with similar drive levels.
Willingness to Please
> Shikoku are much more willing to please than Kai. But our Kai shows a greater problem solving ability.
Acceptance of other dogs
> Our Kai has had very little issues with the addition of a new family member, while our Shikoku always show a certain level of grumpiness or excitement. Our Kai tends to be more aware of the general balance of his family vs. the number of bodies - he gets upset when a dog is gone or when a dog is added (even one who is just returning from boarding).
Integration ease into a new family/pack
> I think this depends more on the individual than the breed, IMHO.
Potential health issues
> It appears Elbows may be a small issue in Kai and knees and issue with Shikoku.
Behavior tendencies
> Shikoku are generally snarkier than Kai but less quarrelsome. Kai seem to be more likely to actually fight but less likely to start the fight while Shikoku seem less likely to actually fight but seem to like to bully dogs a lot. Kai are very protective too, and will "run interference" in order to stop potential fights.
*NEVER spook a sleeping Kai.
Shikoku are rather selfish, or self-centered compared to Kai.
Tenacity
> Our Shikoku are tenacious 75% of the time while our Kai is more like 50% - but when our Kai goes off it trumps the tenacity of any of our other Nihonken. I have seen him freak out at an Akita and scare the living daylights out of them - and he was outweighed by 40lb in that argument.
Drive
> Depends on the dog and the lines. Both Shikoku and Kai will work longer than any person.
Alertness and level of 'care' to alert
> I would give it to the Kai here, Kai are formidable watch/guard dogs. A Shikoku will alert you tho, and some may fight - a Kai will mos def fight. A Kai will give their life for you, I'm not sure a Shikoku would - they are a bit too selfish.
Living space requirements
> Same.
Exercise/stimulation needed daily/hourly/etc.
> Both breeds require lot of exercise, as much as you can give them. Kai seem more robust and hardy as out door companions.
Attachment to humans vs. dogs vs. both
> Kai attach to their pack heavily, more so the people. Shikoku attach themselves but seem more attached to their home than their family.
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I was waiting for your answer on this. Thanks. Just one question. I have heard that these health issues are more prevalent in the US Kai and Shikoku and that in Japan you do not see them as much. Can someone give me their thoughts on that?
Maybe, I mean it's a stretch, but maybe, there is a little of that with Kai due to their inbreeding level, but I would say it's marginal. The Japanese rarely screen their dogs so how would they even know?
Kai and Shikoku are tough dogs, they can hide HD, LP, etc... you would never know they have it if you didn't test. Here in the US a lot of orthopedic specialist prey on the sympathy and love we have for our pets so they over diagnose looking for an easy buck (or 3,000).
I think if there is any perceived difference it is due to these factors...
A) Most Japanese breeders don't screen their dogs for health issues.
C) Vets, surgeons, specialist make their money selling LP, HD, Elbow issues diagnosis.
That's my opinion.
There is this perceived prestige and purity with imported dogs that, frankly, couldn't be more off-balanced. I have seen it every breed I own, and I have RARELY seen better quality dogs come from other countries when comparing top breeders in this country vs top breeders in the motherland of the breed. Truth is, North America is WAY more advanced when it comes to screening our dogs than most other countries. Just my opinion, from experience.
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Really if any owner of one or the other want to weigh in, thats fine. Gives me more to work with!
Brad - thank you very much! I was trying to explain breed differences to my husband, whose interested is starting to pique in the idea of one or the other
It's great to get your input, and I think you made some good points. My breeder had both parents registered with OFA, so one last question....How can we get breeders with animals who have had issues register both the good and the bad?
I'll tack on a few agreements on the points Brad made on Kai.
-Problem solving: Kai are definitely pretty strong there
-Alertness: Haru is very alert to every sound or change she senses in her surroundings. If it bothers her, she'll tell me about it.
-Most all of the Kai I've seen are definitely attached to their people.
Now I can't compare any of that against a Shikoku, but seeing a lot of Kai and Shikoku at shows, the Kai do seem overall more attuned to their person. The Shikoku seem much more concerned with what is going on in 'their' world.
On the health issue front, I think you will end up seeing more of the same health issues in a breed if there is a smaller gene pool (just due to a possible prevalence of a 'bad' gene in certain lines. If most of the dogs are from the same line, you'll start seeing a lot of that bad gene).
The only way to tell if the dogs over here are actually in better shape than the dogs over there would be to actually test them. Like Brad said, North America is much more advanced in screening dogs, hell most of the tests aren't even done over here. I don't know a single breeder of any of the Nihonken breeds that tests their animals.
As far as the idea an imported animal is healthier/purer and all that, it is far fetched. The only clear reasons I can think of for imports are 1. To increase genetic diversity 2. Importing animals to add their traits to your breeding line.
Well sorry for the temporary thread-jack.
Workability
My dogs have always very much been pets. But Miko is an excellent hunter with an amazing prey drive. While also being a very good listener (most of the time). I fully intend on using her balanced temperament and sweet nature in some sort of therapeutic working capacity once she is more mature.
Willingness to Please
Miko is much more interested in feedback than Moto ever was. Meaning she had a much greater interest in what we (humans) have to offer in return for her giving desired behavior. Moto was way more of a rebel.
Acceptance of other dogs
Miko growls, a lot. But she also growls WHILE licking. So I have come to accept that as just part of her "talk". She loves other dogs. Plays very well. And lets other dogs into our home with no issue. When a dog offers her a correction (normally for being a tad too enthusiastic) she takes it in stride. And recovers really well.
Integration ease into a new family/pack
She has not had many additions to her family. Only subtractions. Which she clearly feels. She is craving a lot of attention right now.
Potential health issues
keeping a close eye on those knees.
Behavior tendencies
No issues at all. Is a nervous/bored chewer.
Tenacity, Drive, Alertness and level of 'care' to alert
good luck redirecting a shikoku when she has her attention directed towards prey/or even an interesting passerby. You better have something REALLY stinky and delicious.
Living space requirements, Exercise/stimulation needed daily/hourly/etc.
Our house is 1600 sq. ft. Small fenced in yard. She gets 3 miles of walking two times a day. Lots of playing. And lots of attention. Less exercise leads to a rambunctious pooch.
Attachment to humans vs. dogs vs. both
We noticed she really latched on to Piglet when Moto died. Now that we have lost Piglet too, you can feel that she is lonely. She is very snuggly with me now (I am not complaining) which I think is part grief and part I am not occupied with Piglet (who I babied tremendously). She is very clearly craving canine attention. We will not be able to go long without getting her a dog companion. She loves us very much. That is clear. But she was born into a pack. And you can see she feels lost now.
We may not like to look at it like this, but we are their consumers and we drive the market. Right now too many people (like me) buy from irresponsible breeders and don't hold them accountable for not doing the tests. When you buy a poorly bred dog YOU and the BREEDER are to blame. God knows Jen and I have learned this lesson.
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Jen - I think this is a great thread and a great idea. I'm happy to be able to way both, but I agree hearing from owners of just one breed will help too. I'm interested in hearing from them. One day maybe I will have a male Shikoku and a female Kai and then I will feel like I can speak definitively on the differences.
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Shigeru - You nailed it with 1 & 2. I agree 100%.
When you go to the shows, do the Shikoku act as outwardly nasty to the other dogs as the Kai do?
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Workability
> Good
Willingness to Please
> Extremely willing to please (very eager to do as asked)
Acceptance of other dogs
>Since I don't have other dogs regularly at my house, I cannot always say. In dog class he is very focused on me and is VERY good at completely ignoring the other dogs. For those that saw him at the EC PA meetup, I was very impressed with his behavior with ALL the other dogs. Here is an intact male dog who let 20+ dogs come into HIS yard and he played very well with all the dogs, big and small, young and old. The only dog (who was bigger than him) that he was a bit taken aback with was Tikaani. But usually he just ignored him; only when Tikaaini kept trying to get Kuma to play was Kuma very slightly snarky at him.
At least my Shikoku tends to hip slam while playing with other dogs -- none of the Shiba did that
Integration ease into a new family/pack
> Depends on the dog. Kuma would probably accept a new dog, but he is very attached to me, so that might be difficult going to a new family. That said, he loves all adults and children, so I think he would adapt.
Potential health issues
> as Brad indicated
Behavior tendencies
> Hmm. He is a very easy dog to live with (doesn't chew, etc). But I DO work from home, so he is rarely left alone. I think that he could become a chewer and have some bad behavior if I went away to work each day.
Tenacity
> Very tenacious, especially for hunting. I don't find that it goes over into other areas outside of hunting.
Drive
> High, especially for hunting. I found that when hunting, if the quarry fights a bit, he goes in stronger. For instance, he caught a ground hog that bit and held onto his leg (didn't break the skin), but it must have pinched because Kuma shrieked but then in a half second went in stronger, harder, and faster and dispatched the quarry. The other day, he came on a ground hog that actually stood up to him (vs ran). He got very frustrated and had it pinned to one area, and barked at he vehemently from about 1 inch from the ground hogs face. But because the animal kept pivoting and standing him off, he just "barked to detain" vs going for the kill (ie, like when the animal runs from him)
Alertness and level of 'care' to alert
> Alert yes, guard dog, not so much. Kuma will give an alert bark on occassion, but he is very people oriented and friendly to ANY new person. If anyone comes, all he wants to do is go see them and kiss them. Not protective of me at all.
Living space requirements
> Fenced yard
Exercise/stimulation needed daily/hourly/etc.
> Both breeds require lot of exercise, as much as you can give them.
Attachment to humans vs. dogs vs. both
Well, I don't have any other dogs at home right now. Kuma is very attached to me and follows me everywhere, not so much for Dan. It has only been in the past 6 months (he is about 19 months old now) that he is even happy if I leave him with Dan (he used to be very upset when I left even with Dan around).
Brad I have a feeling there is a funny story attached with that statement....
It's a good question despite the fact that these breeds were each developed to do mostly the same job, and you look on a map and gee, if Japan were California I could hop in my car and probably visit each of them in a single day. But horizontal distances belie the actual amount of isolation each of these areas had during most of Japan's history. So these dogs are each the product of a slightly unique culture of hunters.
It's a natural question because we want to see like a little stats bar for each breed. We know there are going to be differences, so what are they?
The problem is, nobody on this forum really has enough experience with these dogs. I don't want any of you to stop talking about your Shikas!! But fact of the matter is, everybody on this forum has individual dogs that are a part of them and we're (well, you-all, hopefully I'll be making a deposit in a couple of weeks) very biased.
What we, as the English Speaking Japanese Dog Fancier Community really need, is somebody to get rich, buy a bunch of land in the mountains, and start breeding all the Japanese dogs in their home. Or would that be too many? Maybe a bunch of us could get rich and buy a bunch of adjacent land and we'll each take a breed or two. Anyway, we'll all need to be vets and animal behaviorists so we can be professional and objective with how we assess the differences in the breeds.
But then again every animal behaviorist I've ever read the writings of tends to emphasize the individual nature of dogs anyways. So we'll need a bunch of writers and poets in our little commune.
More seriously, I think anybody on this forum who has asked themselves or the forum "what's the general difference between X Inu and Y Ken" owes it to the community to get one of each! And then report back with many pics and anecdotes!
I am hoping to get a Kishu this year. When I do, either you guys will be like "that's nice cliff, white, most boring Japanese dog breed ever," or you will all suddenly go "OMG! Why haven't I considered one of THOSE? Cliff, how is he compared to Shikokus and Kais?" And I won't know. BUT I bet you I will have an opinion anyway!
Workability - Rakka is very good at being what she is, and that is a hunter. She loves to run, chase, track, and "detain" other animals. She can learn non-hunting-related tasks, too, but she is less willing to offer new behaviours as opposed to my sheepdog, who likes to try everything. She does love to do things with me, though, and could be used in a variety of settings.
Willingness to Please - She's very willing to please. If she thinks we're mad at her, she often sulks off to her kennel and she loves to cooperate. Although, sometimes she's not very intune with me - like she'll be doing something I don't want her to do and she'll be totally clueless to my reaction until it becomes obvious, then she'll suddenly clue in and be good.
Acceptance of other dogs - She had some trouble accepting other dogs when we first got her, but she seems to have calmed down considerably from living with a pack. She can be too rough in play and sometimes a bully, but she's usually fine. I've had a number of foster dogs and haven't had a problem with her yet, although she bullies Skella big time. Actually, the more dogs we have around the better things seem to be for her. She picks on Skella if they're outside I'm not there (and paying close attention), but when we have a foster dog or are dog-sitting, she seems totally fine with Skella, for some reason. I took her to the dog park once, too, and she was fine to dogs of all sizes. Although, lately, she's been "detaining" Skella on the front porch - not letting her leave and being an all around bully. Actually, I think she may be frustrated because she's the odd one out - Tojo and Skella are super buddies, but they don't include Rakka in their play, so I think Rakka gets frustrated. I think when we add another shikoku, she'll be much happier.
Integration ease into a new family/pack - We adopted Rakka at one year of age and she integrated quite well with the humans, but definitely took some time with the other dogs. Looking back, I could've handled the introduction better. She did seem weirded out by me when I took her home, though. When I first got her in the car, I was sitting with her in the passenger seat, and talking to her, and she was leaning away from me and looking at me like I was a weirdo. Not scared, just... weirded out. We were buddies by the end of the drive home, though.
Potential health issues - Knees seem to be the thing to watch for. I'll most likely have Rakka x-rayed since her sister has LP (and just because). Maybe when she has her operation, which will be... soonish, I think (she has a benign cyst on her neck that never really went away, it seems harmless but the vet doesn't like where it's located because it could potentially get bigger and put pressure on her jugular and restrict blood-flow to the brain).
Behavior tendencies - In general, I've noticed that she acts less domesticated. She has certain mannerisms that some people find intimidating or frightening. For one thing, she has no concept of personal space. I mean, she's better than she was, but she needs to be kept in line constantly when we have company. Also, she likes to put her jaws around my wrists, the way wolves do to each other's necks. Plus, she growls more than most dogs and she makes lots of interesting sounds, including singing/whining, barking, growling, yawning (which I think is more than just a yawn because she tends to yawn while she's talking a lot) and any combination of those.
Tenacity - She's very tenacious, and not soft at all. She does everything 100% and she's not afraid of anything.
Drive - Very high drive. She's not laid back in any of her pursuits.
Alertness and level of 'care' to alert - She's alert to the things she cares about. She's watchful of all the critters on the property and she keeps close tabs on my almost-three-year-old. She likes to check on Melvin, too.
Living space requirements - The less space you have, the more effort you have to put into their upkeep. House size isn't too important, imo, because Rakka is really calm indoors, but outside space is a bigger deal. Rakka sleeps most of the time that she's inside, then runs like crazy outside.
Exercise/stimulation needed daily/hourly/etc. - We live on a big property and spend a lot of time outside (especially lately), so I don't really have to "walk" Rakka, exactly. She just follows me around while I do my outdoor stuff, runs around, plays, and at the end of the day, she's content. There have been times where I've had her with me while staying in town with someone, and I'm always caught off guard by how much more difficult it is to handle that energy when we're confined! Having another shikoku for her to play with would be tremedously good for her, too. Whenever we have a foster dog who is willing to play rough like her, she just spends hours playing hard and really, really enjoys it. I play with her, too, but I can't duplicate playing with another dog. In fact, I've been thinking I need to foster another dog soon because she's being particularly difficult with Skella lately and yesterday she kept trying to rugby tackle Isaac!
Attachment to humans vs. dogs vs. both... - She's attached to her people, for sure, but she's not clingy. She has a lot of freedom on our property, but she likes to stay with her people rather than just running for the hills. Unlike Tojo - who just does his own thing and doesn't care what I'm doing (luckily, his own thing is pretty much always sitting on the porch :-). She likes other dogs, and does really well having them in her pack. Like I said, it seems like the more dogs we have the better she is. At first, it seemed like she would've been a better only dog because of the way she reacted to other dogs (waaaay too rough and snarky), but looking back, it seems like it may even have stemmed from a desire to interact with other dogs. She never acted like she wanted other dogs to go away, she was just too in-your-face with them. Now she does really well, and I've realised that pack life is good for her. She is more submissive and calm towards people than other dogs. She's really attached to Melvin, too. It's adorable. I think she likes her big family.
"Drive
High, especially for hunting. I found that when hunting, if the quarry fights a bit, he goes in stronger. For instance, he caught a ground hog that bit and held onto his leg (didn't break the skin), but it must have pinched because Kuma shrieked but then in a half second went in stronger, harder, and faster and dispatched the quarry. The other day, he came on a ground hog that actually stood up to him (vs ran). He got very frustrated and had it pinned to one area, and barked at he vehemently from about 1 inch from the ground hogs face. But because the animal kept pivoting and standing him off, he just "barked to detain" vs going for the kill (ie, like when the animal runs from him)"
That is awesome. I think Kuma is one of my favorite dogs ever.
If a pack is 3+, where the dogs don't get the one-on-one with the humans as much as a single dog family would, I gather that Shikoku would thrive moreso than a Kai?