Aggression towards other dogs
So I've been trying to read other posts about behaviour, fear, etc., but I still find myself at a loss...
I adopted Mylo almost a year ago (will be a year on June 9th). He's 8 years old now. When I adopted him it was made very clear to me that he did not get along with other dogs. I accepted that, but did not know how difficult it would actually be on us. Apparently, where I live, a LOT of people like to let their dogs off leash. I'm talking about in the halls/foyer of my building, on the building property, on the sidewalks, on front lawns of homes, everywhere. For the most part, these people also believe that since their dogs aren't aggressive, this is a fine idea. Not so much. I can't count how many times I've had this situation:
Me: "Excuse me, can you please leash your dog? Mine isn't good with other dogs."
Them: "Why?"
Me: "Just please grab your dog."
(this is all as the other dog is coming towards Mylo and I, and my heart rate sky rockets)
Them: "oh, no, it's fine, *insert other dog's name* is very friendly!"
(dog reaches Mylo, Mylo lunges, and fight ensues. I break up fight, hold dogs apart, and as the other owner approaches, I'M THE ONE receiving the dirty look.)
So I've resorted to taking the rarely-used back staircase 5 floors every time we go out (not that I'm complaining, it's decent exercise), keeping Mylo close to me and peeking around every blind corner, and crossing the street any time we see another dog on the same side of the street as us (regardless if they are on a leash or not). It's working out fine so far *knock on wood*... but it can get exhausting.
Here are some facts on the situation:
I was told by NYCSR that he could be this way because he was in a poorly run kill shelter where the dogs fought (before he was rescued).
Mylo NEVER approaches other dogs.
He is completely fine with them approaching him, up until they are about 3 inches from him. At this point, he lunges at them. (no warning growl)
He has NEVER hurt another dog, pinned them, or drawn blood.
I cannot help but get panicked when I see an off leash dog, or dog approaching us without me being able to gain a decent clearance from them. I know it only makes the situation worse, but I think I panic because I don't know what to do.
I was told a few weeks ago by the receptionist at the Canadian Canine Training Academy (here in Ottawa) that it could cost me about $600 for 8 weeks of personal training... but that it might not be possible to train out of him because he's 8 years old.
I have absolutely no intention of giving up Mylo. I want to learn how to deal with this situation.
Any thoughts? Suggestions? Advice? I'd appreciate it more than you can imagine.
I adopted Mylo almost a year ago (will be a year on June 9th). He's 8 years old now. When I adopted him it was made very clear to me that he did not get along with other dogs. I accepted that, but did not know how difficult it would actually be on us. Apparently, where I live, a LOT of people like to let their dogs off leash. I'm talking about in the halls/foyer of my building, on the building property, on the sidewalks, on front lawns of homes, everywhere. For the most part, these people also believe that since their dogs aren't aggressive, this is a fine idea. Not so much. I can't count how many times I've had this situation:
Me: "Excuse me, can you please leash your dog? Mine isn't good with other dogs."
Them: "Why?"
Me: "Just please grab your dog."
(this is all as the other dog is coming towards Mylo and I, and my heart rate sky rockets)
Them: "oh, no, it's fine, *insert other dog's name* is very friendly!"
(dog reaches Mylo, Mylo lunges, and fight ensues. I break up fight, hold dogs apart, and as the other owner approaches, I'M THE ONE receiving the dirty look.)
So I've resorted to taking the rarely-used back staircase 5 floors every time we go out (not that I'm complaining, it's decent exercise), keeping Mylo close to me and peeking around every blind corner, and crossing the street any time we see another dog on the same side of the street as us (regardless if they are on a leash or not). It's working out fine so far *knock on wood*... but it can get exhausting.
Here are some facts on the situation:
I was told by NYCSR that he could be this way because he was in a poorly run kill shelter where the dogs fought (before he was rescued).
Mylo NEVER approaches other dogs.
He is completely fine with them approaching him, up until they are about 3 inches from him. At this point, he lunges at them. (no warning growl)
He has NEVER hurt another dog, pinned them, or drawn blood.
I cannot help but get panicked when I see an off leash dog, or dog approaching us without me being able to gain a decent clearance from them. I know it only makes the situation worse, but I think I panic because I don't know what to do.
I was told a few weeks ago by the receptionist at the Canadian Canine Training Academy (here in Ottawa) that it could cost me about $600 for 8 weeks of personal training... but that it might not be possible to train out of him because he's 8 years old.
I have absolutely no intention of giving up Mylo. I want to learn how to deal with this situation.
Any thoughts? Suggestions? Advice? I'd appreciate it more than you can imagine.
Comments
Kyla,
I understand and share in your predicament. I adopted Jazz at age 4 – she turns 6 this July. Jazz is reactive to other dogs most of the time. Here are some of the things that I’ve done:
Training classes & Behaviorist – the training classes were good in the fact that Jazz was around other dogs, but not right next to them – kept a distance of 6-7 ft at all times. Behaviorist helped with learning clues about Jazz’s posture and responses. It helped me learn to read her better.
Jazz likes to be carried or held. She is less reactive when be carried – I actually have a sling for her to make things a bit easier for me. Normally, this isn’t the way to go, but after having Jazz evaluated – it was the way for her.
Jazz takes melatonin any day that we are going somewhere. The basic purpose is to help knock off the edge that she has with other dogs and sounds.
Jazz wears a harness that will support her when I have to pick up her up quickly from the ground because of another dog.
Over time, these things have lessened her reactiveness, but it never goes fully away. I doubt that it ever will. Jazz has failed daycare screenings every place we have tried (7 to date). This past weekend was an excellent example. When we arrived at Jen’s place, Jazz was not a happy camper – nothing but growls. The next day, she did very well and even played (Jazz is still learning how to play). At the picnic, Jazz did fairly well, but then one dog got to close and she was done with the other dogs – from that point forward, she growled at any within 5 or so feet.
I’m overly hyper-vigilant about Jazz, but I don’t want another dog hurt by her. When she does play with another dog, I am thrilled. When she growls, I accept that she’s not comfortable with the situation – whether that’s because of the dog or because we’re outside or any number of other issues she has. I am fortunate in the fact that there are not many dogs close by to me and we are able to walk Jazz in relative peace. Jazz does better indoors than out and much better with spitz types than non. Some dogs she simply likes better (Sally the Pug, for instance) and some dogs she cannot stand (Gator the Boxer), no matter what the situation.
I would look for a behaviorist to help you understand the subtle cues that Mylo gives off – that may make some of the biggest differences.
Adopting a dog with known issues to other dogs makes your job a lot more complicated in the avoidance and management department. So learning to manage is key.
What is your goal? To have Mylo be more accepting of other dogs? Or to be able to control the situation should another dog approach you?
If you get in the habit of picking him up or doing anything to physically respond to his reactions (short of removing him on ground level and avoiding), you are opening the door for injury to your person or frustrating another dog by the height difference, and the fact that Mylo, being a shiba, probably isn't really into that sort of coddling scenario. I think it pacifies the immediate situation but reinforces the jealousy or fear that drives your dog's reaction to other dogs.
Like LJ said, a behaviorist that reinforces positive training methods can help you learn cues and how to redirect or avoid certain things to make all interactions with dogs end on a positive, or at least a constructive, note. I think a trainer who uses positive reinforcement could teach you how to allow Mylo to rely on you and focus on you to keep his immediate environment safe.
I like to believe that I can read Mylo's body language very well... but I never see any body language changes when another dog approaches. They could be there, but they might be so small that I don't see them. The thing about Mylo is that he doesn't give a warning growl like most dogs. He seems totally fine, and then lunges at the throat within a millisecond.
Avoiding seems to work ok, but I feel kind of guilty that he can't socialize with his fellow canines. I feel like it's my responsibility as his mum to make his fears (which it is, essentially) go away.
My goal is whatever is whatever Mylo and I can accomplish together. If at first that means that I have to control the situation, then that's what we'll do. But if, together, we can get Mylo to be more accepting of other dogs, then that would be ideal.
I have not tried focus commands so far. I actually didn't know what they were until reading a recent post on another discussion today. What I have done in the past is this: If we are ever walking and another dog (on the other side of the street of course) is barking at Mylo (this usually gets him to pull on the lead towards them), I pull him to the other side of me, close to my side and say, in a commanding but calm voice, leave it. When he looks away from the other dog and walks ahead with me, I give him lots of verbal praise and say "Good Mylo! Good leave it!" until we are out of the situation. I figure that this will encourage him to not react if another dog is chirping him.
I have not tried clicker training either. The closest thing to it (and I know it's FAR OFF) that I do, is snap my fingers to get his attention and get him to look at me as I do hand signals (as well as speak) for his commands (sit, down, stay etc.). He reacts better to hand signals with voice commands better than voice alone.
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=3851&page=1#Item_13
and pick up some of the books, I know they have helped many forum members with their training!
It's strange with dogs, with learning and training, they don't generalize well. You teach them to sit perfectly in the living room, then ask them to sit in the kitchen and they have no idea what you want them to do.
It seems it's the opposite with learned behavior based on fear with dogs. They get bit by a Lab they don't learn all Labs bite, they learn all dogs bite - which is a huge generalization. Add fear to the mix and it gets bad, everything that causes them discomfort becomes something they must take this ("The best defense is a good offense") approach with.
Maui was very much like this, at first we felt he was giving no signals that he was uncomfortable, but then we really tuned into him and realized he was telling us long before the "attack" that he was not comfortable. It's just subtle sometimes... A slight lift to their hair, looking a different direction, licking their lips, yawning, these are just some of the things that your dog may be doing to tell you (and the other dog) that he is not comfortable.
Maui is still reactive with other dogs, but he has come a long way. He is always an issue when we introduce a new dog, and it takes him (literally) years to start to interact with one of the dogs - but he is learning - and improving. It is only now that he will play with Loa. He still will not play with Hilo.
Thing is, we have a different situation here, most people don't have a dog ranch. You need to ask yourself if it matters if he likes other dogs? Does he really need to interact with dogs?
When a dog is approaching like that, don't freeze, just turn and walk away.
Don't be afraid to tell the other dog to get moving too. If the owner is not going to listen to your warning, then apply pressure to the other dog - look at them and say "BACK!" in a forceful voice. If the owner has an issue with it tell them to take a hike - you are protecting your dog (and their dog).
Every time he snaps at another dog he is practicing that behavior, and each time it happens he is more likely to do it the next time - because it works! The other dog usually goes away - works like a charm!
There is no magic cure for this, and it really really sucks - it's hard to deal with. But think about your dog, while you are stressed out about the situation and some person giving you a bad look, your dog is FREAKING OUT inside his little head - scared out of his mind - to the point he feels he needs to act violently to escape the situation. It's sad, and, IMHO, there is no reason to put him through it - just walk away.
He has you, he doesn't need other canines. He is STOKED to have you, trust me. He had nothing before you.
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I know it must be hard, and annoying, to have so many off leash dogs approaching the two of you while you're trying to have a nice walk. But in these off leash situations, you may need to adjust the use of distraction work when the other dog is practically on top of Mylo. Giving him a toy or something that he can hold in his mouth can help slow his bite responce down, and you can try to make use of the tug game to keep his mouth preoccupied long enough for you to convince to other person to take their dog away.
Also with dogs who are running towards your dog in a friendly manner, step between the two and make attempts to scare the other dog away. Saying "eh eh" loud and clear combined with a few strong hand claps has really helped me scare away most dogs that Tetsu doesn't want to deal with. Telling the other dog's person that their dog will get hurt(if not by your dog, than by you) should it come closer can help prevent a situation. I've learned that some threats are justified if it means getting through their thick skulls and preventing a fight.
Remember, doing some of the techniques suggested on this post will not only keep Mylo from harm (and further worsening his dislike of dogs), but will also help keep the other dog safe (as it's not the dogs fault that their person is an idiot).
Getting to a behaviorist or good trainer will help you much more so you can ease the tension. Understanding the signals is critical so you don't have to hold your breath as you go out the door.
Baby steps....work on it bit by bit with some professional help. If Mylo does not like other dogs it isn't the end of the world. I am sure he is perfectly happy playing with you
Snf
and it is very very hard to go about with the dog you know is sweet and lovable and fun and have to tell everyone to keep back because he is afraid. Which no one ever believes when they see the gargoyle face. Other people will think what they will and I have a hard struggled with this, even in my family- "He's crazy." "Who would want a dog like that?" and then everyone telling you they saw it on Cesar that you just need to do XYZ, and that if you only trained him properly this wouldn't be a problem. WRONG.
Reactive dogs take lots of time and patience. More than anyone anticipates. I read everything I coudl get my eyes on. It helped me a lot to take Reactive Dog class- I had a great teacher Emma Parsons- who could see how I was working him and correct my chops. I love reading, and I could move in to the Dogwise warehouse and live happily ever after, but taking him to class helped a ton in terms of real-world timing. Emma's book is "Click to Calm."
Emma;s class is clicker training- remember the clicker is not used to get his attention, it is used to mark the exact second he is doing the right thing, so he knows exactly what he is being rewarded for. And don't be skimpy on reinforcers. I made more progress when I ditched the Charlie Bears (meh..) and used crumbled cheesburgers. When he sees a strange dog, Sage was convinced the world was about to end and who cares about a dry old Charlie Bear or three when doom is rolling in? When I taught him to look at me, it had to be SOOOOO worth it.
It also takes time. Learning to replace the reaction behavior with a different behavior needs a lot of reps at what seems like ridiculously tiny steps to keep him under threshhold. Failure is not an option. Every time he has a successful response, its like putting a penny in a jar; every time he explodes, it's like dumping 500 pennies out. So, explosion prevention #1, working at a distance and duration he can succeed at #2, Lots of reps at the successful distance- I mean lots. It will take months. He also needs downtime- working hard on this is stressful, he needs time to drain his stress chemicals (2-7 days, according to Ali Brown, "Scaredy Dog" book)- and time for what you are practicing together to be processed by him. Let him take the time he needs. Learning is a jaggedy line- so when somedays it seems he did worse, remember learning is like that. He'll then have 2 better days, but he will GET it.
The posts above are correct- some dogs don;t like othe rdogs and that is okay. It is maddening to think about other people taking their dogs all these places and dog park and so forth, but even though *I* think all that is cute and fun and so forth, Sage certainly does not, and I cannot go to dog field to make ME happy and blame him for not being different. He is who he is and the reasons he got that way are things I can do nothing about.
So we train, and learn together. We had a good walk today, when things get scary, he will huff and puff a second and then he remembers to sit or trot by my side and look at me for his treats and we handle the problem by waiting for it to pass by, or by leaving the scene. It is really hard to make sure that all his public encounters are at a handle-able level for him- another reason why Reactive Dog class was helpful- it is so controlled that the dogs are able to stay below freakout threshhold and learn.
Turid Rugaas "On Talking Terms with Dogs" is excellent for picking up his signals. The other book that turned a corner for us was "Stress in Dogs" from Dogwise publishing- we ask an awful lot of our dogs, and we can give some individuals too much of what we think are good, even really great, things.
Good luck and know that we are here with ya!
I certainly understand and accept that I'll never be able to bring Mylo to the dog park. That wasn't my goal. We are both very independent and content socializing with eachother, or with other humans. My goal was to get Mylo to not react when approached by another dog, but I see now that this is going to take a lot of time and work. I'm willing to put the effort in, but I think that I first need to focus on calming Mylo and easing his tension.
As for practicing distractions and having Mylo look to me when he is uncomfortable, I'm not sure how to go about this. As much as we come in contact with dogs often, it's not a constant occurrence. I don't think it would be fair to Mylo if we went looking for trouble, so that I could work with him...? How do you suggest going about this?
Also, does anyone know of a good trainer or behaviourist in/around Ottawa, Ontario?
At the advanced stages of her book, Emma establishes that a dog looking at Ben (her dog) is a clickable event, a dog near him is a clickable event, then a dog sniffing his butt is a clickable event. He gets something for tolerating it, and you work in tiny pieces like that. IF you want him to tolerate dogs in closer proximity. Don't work on it every day, by any means, Sage and I take "working walks" 2x a week, and we turn back after a short distance (1/2 mile) or one or two handleable Scaries, which ever comes first. The rest of the time it's avoiding other dogs as completely as possible. Frisbee in the yard. Ball in the house. Walks in the dark and on rainy days when no one is out. I never take him out on weekends when the world is more populated with Scaries. I have learned when all the other dogs are out on their walks, and I avoid them as best I can. I don't have to look for trouble, something he reacts to (a horse, a growly voiced man, a rattley landscaping truck, a dog barking at him from their yard) will always turn up. He cannot handle passing a dog on leash across the street without losing it. We arent there yet.
Tuli is not enthused about dogs barging into her space. It worries her greatly and she has good reasons. Unfortunately she is one that had one too many bad experiences and adopted the "best defense is good offense" tactic. Ironically, she is a bit more selective. She actually 'profiles'! Boxers, labs, and retrievers are likely to get the greatest reaction. She is not without social skills. She plays regularly with Bosco the Chow, Viking the Norwegian Elkhound and Kaiser the young GSD. There is a spaniel mix and Ridgeback that visit our house and she is tolerant. Classes (obedience/agility) really help her confidence since it is a controlled setting, meaning that even during off-leash work, the OTHER dogs are also under control.
A few weeks ago, we had another ambush. A golden retriever was being bicycled by the owner and was NOT using a bike safety attachment. The dog saw us and made a dash in our direction (the sidewalk). In order to avoid a crash, the owner dropped the leash. There was really nothing I could do and it was a totally unsafe situation. Tuli left her mark on this dog's muzzle. Afterwards I put the Trio in a sit-stay (they complied) and returned the golden to the owner and told them about the Sprenger bike attachment and the Walkie dog!
I feel awful when these things happen for a couple of reasons: (1) I feel like I have failed from keeping Tuli safe and her suspicions are once again confirmed that such dogs can't be trusted. She doesn't deserve to be accosted when she is trying so hard to be calm. (2) She gets to practice snarl, lunge, bite which I am attempting to supplant with other more appropriate habits. (3) Another dog potentially gets injured. (4) I am perceived as having demon dogs.
I was hiking while my Dad was visiting at Great Falls on Monday (busy day) and I had the Trio sit and watch me and fed treats while other dogs passed. Worked great. They were very attentive and I am not shy about telling people to keep their dogs close even though I get weird looks or sarcastic comments. I don't want them zipping out on a flexi lead or something and barging into us. BUT, all bets would have been off, if an off leash dog zoomed towards us.
Therefore, there are two other things I could recommend for warding off the thick-skulled other dog owners...
(1) If off-leash dogs are everywhere as you describe and that isn't likely to change, get Mylo a muzzle and get him accustomed to wearing it. A correctly fitted basket muzzle will permit him to pant and even drink and take treats. I know he hasn't done real damage but here's the thing: If OTHER people see a muzzled dog - they will give you a WIDE berth. I guarantee it! Then you don't have to explain anything. Of course, another dog won't recognize it as such, but then Mylo can't do any damage.
(2) Get some citronella dog mace and carry it on EVERY walk. If a person does not comply with your request to restrain their dog, if the off-leash dog does not respond to the owner, or if the owner is nowhere to be seen and you cannot dissuade the dog from approaching - spray the mace and walk in the other direction.
(3) Recruit some 'bomb-proof' dogs that you and Mylo can go on leashed walks with occassionally. Make these really fun with tasty treats and never go over Mylo's threshold (ensure that the other handler can comply with your request to stay a safe distance away at all times). This will reinforce the concept that he can be in proximity with other dogs and still be safe. Practice your attention and control excises with this dog nearby.
I would teach Mylo to ignore and be satisfied with that. He doesn't need 176 MySpace Friends. Keep both your heart rates low and enjoy your walks! Good luck.
It sucks that we who have reactive dogs- and have to put muzzles on them, walk in the dark, yell at people to stay away- are on the receiving end of the hairy eyeball, when we are being responsible. It helps to remind myself of this often- that I am being a good dog mom, and keeping him safe. Remember not to be hard on yourself about it. You are being Mylo's mom and responding to his unique needs. He landed in the right place at the right time to be with you.
Snf
It's not vanity, I just don't know if I can look at him wearing a muzzle and fake that I'm excited about the fact that he has a huge thing on his mouth =0(
- yeah, I rolled my eyes , too...) you show him the muzzle- give a cheese cube- put it away for a while and go play fetch. next day Show it, cheese, put it away. another time, put a piece of cheese inside it like a cup, so he has to stick his nose in to get it, What a GOOD BOY- this is SUCH A silly game! Put it away. SLOWLY you asscociate for him that the muzzle = happy and cheese. When he doesnt mind each increment than you move on to the next, until you put it on him, feed a cheese, and take it right off, go play. Always a good thing. Always predicts yummy, or play...
If the muzzle is off-putting, then a vest can be a warning, at least to people with control of their dogs. There are companies who customize dog vests- if you google up service dog vest, you'll find some. He wont look like a monster that way, but it does nothing to relieve you of the worry that he could bite defending himslef. Poor guy! My trainer says the muzzle would makes everybody's blood pressure go down and I would send less bad vibes down the leash.
I think I'm more geared toward the halti/ gentle leader route, paired with a possible vest. I'll have a look at the options tomorrow after work.
I did not find that either of these halters had a calming effect on him- which they claim by citing pressure points on his nose and nape of the neck- but Sage has been a pretty anxious guy. He fought the GL, and he tolerates the Halti.
BTW there is a great video about desensitizing your dog to the GL (or a muzzle) with Jean Donaldson here: http://abrionline.org/player.php?id=58
caveat- She trains this WAAAAY faster than any of us mere mortals shoudl expect...
I've been looking around online and on Ebay for vests, and I can't seem to find one that just says "in training, stay clear". They all say either "therapy dog" or "service dog" on them... I'm a little apprehensive about misrepresenting Mylo as a service or therapy dog due to possible legal repercussions, not to mention a bit of an ethical blip lol. I'm thinking I might just order a plain vest, and get it custom embroidered or custom silk screened.
Oh, and thanks for the video suggestion! I'll definitely have a look.
Now if people let their dogs approach my dog too fast or in a rude way, i usually just turn around, say "come on" in a calm, higher pitched voice (baby talk-like) and we walk the other way, away from the distractions. Mochi doesn't usually lunge at other dogs but if too many try to sniff his butt at once or they just all come close enough to make him feel uncomfortable, he will let them know, starting with a low growl.
Just yesterday I was walking my dog when all of a sudden a Min Pin was right on top of Mochi and my friend's dog. The woman kept saying "im sorry im sorry im sorry" and the guy was just like: "They are very unsocialized" and while walking away from them all I said was: "then SOCIALIZE THEM." Now, usually I wouldn't react this way but I've been watching this couple from my porch thinking who gave them the right to even own one dog. They have 2 Min Pins that are out of control and probably never get any exercise. To make matters worse, recently they got 2 Shih Tzu puppies that are also not socialized nor exercised and such people just make me mad. With any other person I would ahve tried to explain the importance of early socialization, etc. but I guess I've just had enough of those two people.
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack your thread!
Guh...
Where I live, they WOULD GET A FINE. I usually complain about cops in my area having nothing to do but on this one I'm glad!