Inu? Ken?

WrylyBrindle

I bet this was covered a long time ago, but searching for "inu" and "ken" reveal a large number of posts...

Why is it "kai KEN" but "akita INU"-- It's never Shiba KEN...

is there a distinction between the two words?

tjbart17

Kai Ken are also called Tora Inu or Tiger Dog. :-] My roommate, East Indian born and raised in Japan, prefers not to say Kai Ken but rather Tora Inu. It makes for wierd conversations. I call Koda a Kai, she calls him a Tora Dog.

tsukitsune

I'm told that "Ken" and "Inu" share the same kanji character. KEN is the borrowed Chinese pronunciation and INU is the Japanese pronunciation of the same character. I'm sure it's more complicated than that.

Calia

OH, I remember reading a thread that talked about this...Something to do with grammar, but I can't remember what. I'm gonna have to find that thread now.

Kenshi

They are interchangeable.

TheWalrus

Like Kenshi said, they are interchangeable. For most of the breeds 'inu' used to be the preferred reading of the ’犬’ kanji. However in recent years most people read it as 'ken'.

Nippo was originally read Nihon Inu Hozonkai, but now most people read it Nihon Ken Hozonkai.

There may be other reasons, but I haven't heard of them.

Kenshi

There is a lot of regionality to this kind of thing in Japan, so in certain parts there may be a preferred name for a dog breed. Tara, what part of Japan did your friend grow up in? East or West?

But here's the thing - most of us on this forum are native English speakers. We talk a lot about these dogs in English on here, so we actually have the right to decide for ourselves how to use these Japanese words in English.

(Though I wish we could bring back the original Japanese meaning of "Shika" ).

ayk

What is the original Japanese meaning of "Shika"?

For some reason, I thought Shika ken refers to a deer hunting dog while Shishi ken refers to a boar hunting dog? That the medium-sized Japanese dogs would be hunting both?

ShikokuSpirit

While I was in Japan, I noticed that "Shiba Inu" & "Shiba Ken" were both frequently used.

While the Shikoku were always "Shikoku Ken" and never "Shikoku Inu".

-shrugs- I guess it's all about what sounds comfortable as well. Some are interchangable and some...not.

lindsayt

Shikoku Ken has a much better ring to it.

tjbart17

Cliff, she grew up in Kobe.

Kenshi

Kobe, close to Osaka and Kyoto. From what my wife tells me they speak a lofty, metaphor-laden dialect in Kyoto and in Osaka its more puns and jokes. So it sounds perfectly appropriate that they call Kais "Tiger Dogs" there!

I actually think that's quite a beautiful name for the breed. It would actually be a shame to lose that in translation. Maybe we should all make a point to refer to our dogs by the various names. Shikoku owners, start calling your dogs Kochi Ken when people ask!

Shika seems to in fact mean deer. Thing is, when I first started researching Japanese dogs, subsequently to find this forum, I read in several places that the "Shika Inus" were the medium-sized "mainline japanese" dogs, i.e. Kishus, Kais, and Shikokus.

Sangmort

Don't think it matters too much as "ken" & "inu" simply mean dog. So you could just say a "Shiba dog" or "Shiba" since saying "Shiba inu dog" or "Shiba ken dog" would be "Shiba dog dog" when translated.

...

if that made sense. haha ~

Kenshi

Forgive me for being on the internets after two glasses of wine and babbling, but I think we oughta like, promote the preservation of some of the Japanese culturalness of these breeds. It ought to be as important as maintaining healthy bloodlines and stuff. I am not saying we need to become matagi and hunt bears with flintlocks, I am just saying that being aware of where in Japan our dogs are from (take a vacation there!) and what they meant for the people who developed them would be a good thing. It might seem silly but it is the right thing, and a nice thing for us - especially us Americans - to do to pay respect to the culture that we are ah, um, rescuing these breeds from.

Akitas are pretty much an American breed right now, Shibas are a pretty general breed even in Japan, but the Shikokus, Kishus, Kais, and Hokkaidos are steeped with history and it would be a shame to not learn about all that.

Romi

As Osy stated, "Ken" and "Inu" both mean dog. My parents both refer to Shiba's and Akita's with "ken" not "inu". I know in Japan, there are different accents, and if you lived there, you can tell when someone is from a different part...so, maybe certain area's of Japan use "ken" more often than "inu" and vice versa.

Sangmort

I'm not saying forsake the names themselves. However, we are speaking...english, here. As far as the Japanese use the word interchangeably in their native tongue I don't think it matters all that much here in English. Obviously, sometimes the Ken or Inu must be kept. For example, if you search for 四国　"Shikoku" in google, [ in japanese ] odds are you'll get the Island not the dog.If you search 四国犬　”shikoku dog"...THEN you'll get the dog breed. However, "Shikoku Ken" is mixing two languages. The breed name of, say, The Shikoku is not Shikoku KEN it's Shikoku...Ken just means you're talking about the dog...not the island. You're not axing the name, just translating the word describing the breed to english.

芝犬　= Shiba Dog. Plain & simple..."Inu" is simply the romanization of the word.

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I do agree however, we should not let the history of the breeds die. History is important, as it's where they come from. Knowing the past helps you to understand the present.

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Cliff! What're you drinking? I think someone spiked your wine with some 151 rum lmao!~

tjbart17

lol. You all crack me up. I am about to poor myself a glass of wine now.

I should clarify. My roommate actually didn't even know the word "ken". When I said we were getting a Kai Ken, she looked at me blank. I said it was a Japanese breed. She said "oh a Shikoku that's my favorite dog." I said no a Kai. We went to Google and she said "lol that's a Tora Dog". She wouldn't say dog as ken but rather inu. To her, ken means nothing.

Now being born in Southern Italy, I can totally understand. There are some Italian words that I just don't get. The Napolitan dialect is so different. However, I do not know any Japanese......so the debate continues.

WrylyBrindle

Sangmort's post- I see, so it's kindof like us talking about a Labrador or a Chesapeake or a Newfoundland- place names. We dont need to say "retriever" all the time once people to know we are talking dogs, not the Candaian Maritimes, or Maryland duck country. Kai, Shikoku, Hokkaido, Akita are places.

tsukitsune

Awesome post, Osy! That was really informative!

Ippus

That sounds like a fairly accurate summation to me, Chrystal, although it seems there are some regional preferences involved as well.

I think it's a fantastic idea for owners of Nihon-ken to preserve some of the culture the breeds are steeped in... even just putting up a framed poster (like those informational displays in zoos) about the region your breed comes from, or about the breed itself, in your home might be a great first step.

Sangmort

Yep, you've got it Chrystal! That's why on the forums, we just say "Shiba" really, as I think by now, here on the dog forum we know we're talking about the dog

Because these places; Akita, Shikoku, Hokkaido, etc. are pretty well known places in Japan [ for example, Shikoku is one of the major islands that make up Japan ] they almost have to add "dog" to the end of it, otherwise it'd make for a bit of confusion

Phillip - I plan on teaching my dog his obedience commands in Japanese, for kicks haha. Like the way some German Dog Breed owners teach their dogs in German. ~

Migoo

I had that discussion, with my father in law, when an artist was going to make a painting for the breed display case on a show called "My Dog" here in my home town last winter. According to my father in law, Inu is more of an officially way to speek while ken is more to the everyday way to say the word dog. My father in law comes from Nagoya.

tobyshiba

I read somewhere ( a while ago ) that Inu was more all around, and Ken was a very local. Obviously Ken and Inu are interchangable. But, if you happen to hear Ken more in Japan, that might explain it. xD;