Help! Big Dog, Little Dog trying to defy laws of physics
So, our little dog Turbo (about 14" tall, under 15 pounds) is old, deaf, probably a little arthritic, teeth are rotting, and his smeller isn't working like it used to. We've had him for 11 years and he's probably 16-17 years old.
Enter the Akita, Twix. 3 years old, 60+ pounds, rescued from the shelter on June 5th, no ill intent but significantly larger.
Both dogs want to occupy the same space at the same time. Twix steps on Turbo, Turbo snaps at Twix, fight ensues.
This is the second time since Saturday it's happened. The first time Turbo ended up with a bloody spot on top of his head and a pierced and bleeding ear. Tonight Turbo ended up with a hurt leg from where Twix stepped on it, and covered in slobber. No blood and no other apparent injuries. He will always lose. I'm afraid he will lose badly one time.
Two questions:
1. How should I react when it happens
2. What can I do, besides total separation (not really an option), to help prevent it.
Twix is very sweet. When it happened I came running up the stairs and Twix pulled off the fight. I towered over her and pointed down at her. She cowered to a corner and curled in to a tight ball. I pointed to the bathroom and she belly crawled with her chin on the ground towards the bathroom. She was very apologetic. She is still (20 minutes later) very submissive to me. We have the other dog in our bedroom recovering. I had tried to get her in to the crate we just bought for her, but she's not crate trained and as any of you with Akitas know, it's not practical to force her in. I did leash her and walked her, as she cowered, in to the bathroom for some isolation while we figured out if the other dog was OK.
So, tell me what I did wrong and what I should do to make it, and do it, right.
Enter the Akita, Twix. 3 years old, 60+ pounds, rescued from the shelter on June 5th, no ill intent but significantly larger.
Both dogs want to occupy the same space at the same time. Twix steps on Turbo, Turbo snaps at Twix, fight ensues.
This is the second time since Saturday it's happened. The first time Turbo ended up with a bloody spot on top of his head and a pierced and bleeding ear. Tonight Turbo ended up with a hurt leg from where Twix stepped on it, and covered in slobber. No blood and no other apparent injuries. He will always lose. I'm afraid he will lose badly one time.
Two questions:
1. How should I react when it happens
2. What can I do, besides total separation (not really an option), to help prevent it.
Twix is very sweet. When it happened I came running up the stairs and Twix pulled off the fight. I towered over her and pointed down at her. She cowered to a corner and curled in to a tight ball. I pointed to the bathroom and she belly crawled with her chin on the ground towards the bathroom. She was very apologetic. She is still (20 minutes later) very submissive to me. We have the other dog in our bedroom recovering. I had tried to get her in to the crate we just bought for her, but she's not crate trained and as any of you with Akitas know, it's not practical to force her in. I did leash her and walked her, as she cowered, in to the bathroom for some isolation while we figured out if the other dog was OK.
So, tell me what I did wrong and what I should do to make it, and do it, right.
Comments
It isn't fair to the older dog that the other invades his space. Even for the small dogs such as Shibas you can not bring in an adoptee usually and leave it at that. Integrations in the majority of cases have to be done carefully and gradually with supervision.
Old dogs enjoy their space and peace and you have to help make sure the other newcomer respects that by means of separation when you are not there to referee.
Snf
They weren't unattended. I was going down the stairs, they were 3 feet behind me and my very responsible 13-year-old daughter was on the couch next to them. The first time it happened we were all in the kitchen together. Thus, the reason he got stepped on. I will not, and have not left them unattended together.
We have scheduled time with a trainer, but it's not right away. I was hoping for some advice for the situation I described while I wait to meet with them.
I'm not asking for a description of the ideal world, I'm hoping for advice for the real world. In the real world, as the dogs become accustomed to each other, they will be in the same room together, with humans present. There will be times when something happens, in spite of our presence. That's what I'm looking for.
Fair or not, we brought this dog home and want to give it a good home and good training. I think we can do that. If everybody thinks it was the wrong thing to do because it's not fair to the old man, I have no problem re-homing the Akita and trying again. My family will be heartbroken, and I'll be kind of sad, but I'm 38 years-old. I can handle disappointment.
Sorry to be snappy, but I feel kind of like Twix. No ill intentions, I ask for advice, and I got snapped at a little. I'm also a little stressed not knowing what to do. I got in over my head with this, at least a little bit, and I'm trying to be responsible. Thanks for any practical advice you can give me for the immediate situation.
And really, your comments are all spot on. Please don't take offense at my response, none intended. We spent $75 on the dog at the shelter, and we've spent over $300 since Saturday on gear, including a crate that was much more expensive than we planned for. We were planning on a medium dog, and fell in love with Twix. You know how it goes. Again, no problems with any of that, I still expect to by a dog run to let her be outside when we can not be home for several hours. She'll live inside, but the run is a good alternative to the crate when needed. I also expect more financial drain. No problem. I just want to do the right thing. Thanks.
There is no fast and easy fix, only management at this point. All dogs deserve a proper introduction phase, whether they hit it off right away or not. I would DEFINITELY keep them separated at all times unless you have total control over their interaction and can protect your older dog's space and Twix from having a really bad experience (it sounds like its really not her fault when these issues happen).
Real world - dogs need their space, and newly acclimated dogs who had already had an issue stuck in the same room is going to create a lot of tension.
Are baby gates feasible?
Whenever I introduce a new dog to our existing two (who are young, and playful) I still keep them at a distance (crated) when I'm not there and really limit their interactions to leashed walks. No eating, no toys, no treats... keeping it really simple so I set them up to succeed.
Of course there are scraps and arguments and sometimes fights, like you said : real world and things happen.
I think you can do it - you already are making progress in that you are getting to know your new dog and everyone is trying to figure out how to manage time and space effectively and safely.
Where are they all other hours of the day? If they've only had 2-3 issues so far, something must be working to manage their time/space/issues/etc! The part that worries everyone on the forum (I assume) is the age and frailty of Turbo and the size and vitality of Twix. The next issue could end even worse..
I think consulting a positive trainer is a great idea. It would be a total shame to give up on Twix now, she really sounds like a sweet dog who is bigger than even she realizes... but Turbo needs to be protected through management of their space.
I think baby gates are a great idea if your doorways allow for them and your kids are old enough to know how to use them. Say if everyone is in the kitchen and it's crowded, Twix could get moved to the living room so that Turbo doesn't have to worry about getting stepped on and you don't have to worry about possibly breaking up a fight. Twix might not love being in the living room but could learn to deal with it or you could rotate which dog is in the crowded room. At 16 years old Turbo might not mind hanging out on the couch if you remove him from the crowded room. Dogs don't always get what they want and sometimes that might mean separation from the family for the safety of everyone.
The best way for you to break up a dog fight would probably be to try and remove Twix from where Turbo is. If you pull Turbo away Twix might try to latch on. When I've had to break up dog fights I generally try to smack one of them fairly hard on the ass, to break their concentration on the fight and then grab the rear legs and pull away. Reaching for a collar, or diving in between the dogs is a good way to end up getting bitten.
I still stick by my stance, which is very much real world and not philosophy ….. Keep them separated..... at this point until you have a behaviorist/trainer assist you in your home you need to keep the peace and get a routine going first before they can have any free time together. There are triggers that the average human cannot always see between dogs and it has nothing to do with how responsible you are. A trainer/behaviorist can show you the way. I have every faith that you are responsible or you would not be seeking advice and willing to learn.
We as a group can only give general advice, but an expert that can give hands on advice is worth a million in getting your situation worked out. A behaviorist can pinpoint the specifics in your particular circumstances. Therefore it is better to be safe than sorry and not let repeat occurrence happen in the duration. Separate them even when you are in the same room in this case.
Keep in mind you have had the new dog for a week or two and that is not much time at all in the grand scheme of things. There is much more ahead. In fact for some dogs it takes a year if not longer fully to integrate. Don’t expect too much too soon. Try to stay relaxed since your anxiety will make the situations much worse. Both dogs seem pretty stressed and as owners we can only try to make them more comfortable by remaining calm and setting up the situation for success and eliminate challenges between the two dogs.
Soooo separate them until you have a qualified trainer come in to evaluate. Make sure they do not use harsh methods. It sounds like the Akita girl may have had a few too many harsh treatments in her former life from what you describe of her behavior toward you so you don’t want to make that worse. Submissive behavior is not always a good sign in every case. Again talk to your trainer/behaviorist a good one can break out the components of the issues at hand.
Snf
Dogs are not democratic, but it sounds as If Twix really wanted to hurt him, she would have done it by now.
When you aren't able to have full attention on dogs, they should be separated by sturdy barriers.
When you are able to supervise and intervene, I would let them both drag a leash. That way, you can better separate them without sticking your hands in biting range. Remove all potential resources that may cause a scuffle (toys, chewies, bowls, etc). Set yourself up for success and don't let Turbo feel crowded. Tether Twix to a sturdy piece of furniture if you must to maintain proper barrier bubble. Make sure that good treats and fun things like walks outside happen in the presence of the other.
Teach Twix to "go settle" on a mat/dog bed on the floor. When she gets too close to Turbo, send her to her place. Make sure that Turbo gets some one on one time with the family. You must realize that you and your kids are "resources" to Turbo - resources that he doesn't necessarily want to share.
Check out this thread on introducing new dogs and living in multi-dog households.
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=826
I do appreciate the good advice. We took Turbo to the vet today and he's not seriously injured, but his hearing, eyesight, and his sense of smell aren't good, and he's got arthritis. He's on antibiotics for the first set of bites, and he's getting glucosamine now for the arthritis. He has a heart murmur, so no pain meds at his age. He'll just have to deal with it. I agree that she has no intention of hurting him, really. She is showing mothering for him, trying to lick his wounds, nosing him, etc. As long as she's not just tasting him to see if she should go all the way, I think this is a good sign.
With that being said, absolutely I agree that separation while we are with them as well as when we are apart is the answer. We will have to take extra care to be Turbo's ears and eyes, and to keep them separated so that incidents don't happen. In a household like ours constant supervision is tough to accomplish. The always-on leash and dog mat/bed are great suggestions, as well as separate rooms. I'll have to think about the baby gate. We have two of them, I don't know if they'll be a great deterrent for Twix. Twix is a fast learner and pretty obedient. Already she knows that a part of the kitchen is off limits, and stays out of the dining area during meals. I think sending her to a mat is a do-able solution. Thank you, TeamLaika.
Qualified behaviorists are hard to find in this area. I'm sure they are around, but the two I've talked to this week (due to your suggestions, thank you.) don't sound qualified. On a divine intervention note, today at the doctor's office while getting the cast for my youngest, my wife met a lady in the waiting room who has bred Akita's and has 20 years experience training the breed specifically. Her daughter does rally training, and they live about 1/2 mile from us. They have a dog training business, so we are going to cancel with PetSmart and go with them. She is willing to come to our home and work with us and Turbo. Snf, Thank you for the tips on "submissive behavior is not always a good sign..." I hadn't thought of that. I'll be sure to describe the behavior to the trainer as we get started.
We have the kids spending extra time with Turbo, in fact my 6 year-old with the broken arm was reading to him for quite a long time today. Very cute.
I needed the advice on breaking up dog fights. Fortunately all I had to do this time was a quick, "Hey!" and Twix pulled off immediately. I think I have been expecting too much on the socializing. I am used to dogs either being agreeable, or disagreeable. You know within the first few minutes if things are going to be OK or not, and often faster than that. This is a much more complicated situation. I will change my approach and go more slowly, as painful as it is.
This is a lot of work! Who signed me up for this, anyways?
Sincerely, thanks again for your guidance. That's what I needed. I'll keep you posted on our progress. This weekend we'll leave Turbo home to recuperate and have friends check in on him. He still can't go down stairs and struggles getting around. We'll take Twix and her crate with us camping to the family reunion. There will be other dogs there, and plenty of people. The dogs are usually staked out or leashed, so it should be manageable. I plan to give her down time in her crate if she seems like she's getting over stimulated, and I'll pay close attention to her ears and body language to see if I can figure it out. We bought a "Loops" leash with a handle close to the collar as well as at standard length. This will help control her when she gets excited. I'll take primary responsibility for her so I know she's got someone who can control her and hold her back if needed.
As far as Twix & Turbo go, you've been given sound advice! Great to hear about finding the Akita "expert!" You're making great decisions & choices, & we can tell you're working hard to help both your pups out. It can be a struggle, but it'll be worth it in the end.
Good luck! ~
Definitely keep us posted!
We took her to the family reunion campout this weekend. I have absolutely no concerns with her and people. Going anywhere with her was like dodging the Paparazzi! If I were single this is DEFINITELY the dog I would want! You can't walk 10 feet without somebody stopping to talk to you about the dog. Friday and Saturday she didn't rest. Somebody was constantly walking her, running her, playing with her, etc. and there was no end to her energy. Truthfully it was a little exhausting. What do we do with her in the winter when it's below freezing outside and we don't want to leave the house for a week but she has energy leaking out of her ears?? Or today when it's a thunderstorm and I just spent 2 days camping in the rain? I'm not nearly as interested in going for a jog as she is.
There was only one other dog at the reunion and she was older than Turbo and very uninterested in playing. Twix was all over her wanting to play and motivate her, but to no avail. Twix growled at her once, and always pulled to go to where she was if she saw her. The reunion was at a public campground, so there were groups there. Other dogs at the campground were the same way. If Twix saw them she anxiously tried to get to them. I'm still not sure if she would eat them or not. She especially wanted to investigate the small dogs...dachsund, terriers, etc. Not sure what this means, but we'll figure it out.
Our Akita expert doesn't have a class starting for another 4 weeks, but her husband will be back in town this week and will stop over to our house to help us out with immediate needs. He is currently on a show circuit showing Portugese Water Dogs.
I'd suggest getting a good winter coat, hat, gloves, snow pants or snowboarding pants, long underwear and boots. Then you can walk your dog in the winter. If it gets below 10º you will want to shorten walks to half hour or less. If it's below zero, then just only go in and out for bathroom breaks.
They do make a lot of toys these days that you can use with your dog that will mentally stimulate and tire them out for times when you might not want to head outside. Zoo Active toys are very popular, but not cheap. They are to be used by your dog under your supervision, so they don't destroy them.
http://www.nina-ottosson.com/index_english.htm
It sounds like things are all together going pretty well at this point. Hopefully Turbo is feeling better.
I think it really helps give them an outlet for their prey drive and energy. Our shibas LOVE "shiba fishing" (aka flirt pole play)
tugging (aka tug-o-war) is also a great play tool, and helps the dog learn a bite inhibition with people. I am a huge supporter of tug when you know your dog and do it appropriately. I often let my dogs 'win' and make a huge fun game out of it. Though, they actually get bored after like 30 seconds of tugging unless we make the tug toy more of a prey thing...
Great thread on tug:
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4078&page=1#Item_12
Also, our dogs get walked twice a day every day, in all weather. Admittedly if I'm sick or the weather isn't above zero or is above 80, the walks are shortened and play sessions are increased (safely, in humidity my dogs mostly sleep, and thats ok with me).
I'm glad you had a fun time at the park doing Twix Relay!!!!
I've started another thread for things not related to Turbo and Twix getting along, I hat to get in to off topic things if other people do a search on something.
Turbo went for a longer walk yesterday and stayed on his feet when he got home. This is a good sign. He also showed more interest in following us around, and didn't avoid Twix at every turn. Also a good sign. We are still keeping them apart,or at least standing between them when they are in the same room. As Turbo regains his mobility this will become more challenging. Our house isn't a real open floor plan, so we are tripping over each other right now...which is how all this started in the first place.