Also before I attempt to install the wireless internet so I don't have to sit by the TV to access the net, I've just noticed that Tiger pays me attention when I sing. Tail wagging and watching me. A good sign. Whilst I cannot sing forever, it means he doesn't hate me. I can live with being number 2. Even if it means nothing it's made my whole day to have him look at me with a happy expression/body language.
OK, I'm going to possibly be a little hard on you. Well you might take it that way, but I'm really concerned about the story I read above. I said it before, and I will say it again. You really need to work with a behaviorist. Not only does Tiger need training, but you need some as well. It will build your confidence and help you develop a more positive relationship with him.
A lot of us have been through this. I worked extensively with Bear, my Rott companion of 13 years, and multiple trainers and behaviorists with him. He had special needs and it was my first time having a dog in my home as an adult (without the guidance of my parents). Get on top of this. It's not healthy to be scared to walk your own dog. Not for you and not for him. At the same time, it sounds like you are insecure. You're blaiming yourself because you think that you should just know how to take care of a dog. No one just knows. It's part of this forum to support eachother on what we don't know, but I think you need more one on one assistance from an expert.
I appreciate that we need a behaviorist but the only ones we've found in our area are £400 at the least and it is not something we can afford right now. In the mean time we're doing the best we can, I wont walk Tiger alone until we've seen a behaviorist but it is not something we can do tomorrow, or the next day. It'll take time to gather that kind of money together. I think we've drastically underestimated the amount of money moving house left us with, it''s a dyer situation and we're doing the best we can. Until then we can't just not walk him.
edited to include that once Tiger has proof of up to date shots we've been admitted into an obedience class for free, not to participate, but so that the owners of the group can assess Tiger. It is not a behaviorist and they are no experts but it is all we can do in the mean time.
That was the most i've read in a very long time..i had to do it in 2 sittings!
Bottom line, and I know how hard it is when you've just bought your first place, bottom line is you need a trainer/behaviorist. We got one when we first got Spuds, and we thought it was to train the dog, but it was to train US. If it's a good trainer you'll get a wealth of information from your first session, trust me.
alrighty it sounds like a rough week .....just breath (LOL)! : )
I think Tiger has been through quite a bit being moved around so it also sounds like there hasn't been consistent expectations or life style. The dog will look to the individual that provides the most confidence and makes him feel the most comfortable in high threshold situations. Some animals do gravitate to one gender in the household more than the other. However he has not been with you all long enough to form a true bias personally toward you. There are techniques that can bring a positive relationship back. You need someone to help you with developing your skill set and helping you stay safe and keeping Tiger and others safe as well.
So instead of beating yourself up I would calling someone such as Learning About Dogs and ask if they can recommend a good behaviorist/trainer for an evaluation of Tiger in your area. Usually trainers know each other or have enough connections they can put you through to someone closer to your area.
It can't hurt to have at least one private eval. session to get you started and then you can back it up with a quality center once the core eval. has been done.
Here's the link ( I am presuming you live in the UK....if not just shout out and maybe someone here will have contact for your country of origin).
http://www.learningaboutdogs.co.uk/
PO Box 13, Chipping Campden, Glos. GL55 6WX. 0(+44)1386 430189
Really you don't want to want too long.... retreating to the house is like stuffing a cork in a soda bottle hoping the pressure goes flat. It doesn't really work so well in regard to dogs. You need help with adjustments and handling so I would try to get things addressed soon.
Snf
PS: Like Irene mentions below......as an idea do you think that your friends or family will (in the name of housewarming spot you a loan) for getting you all settled?? Maybe a garage sale ....I know when we moved there was stuff that we didn't really need that brought in a little cash.
ok I feel like I was a bit too direct in the above post...I know you had a really rough week, but one thing our trainer said that stuck...you don't want the dog to end up being a burden--dogs viewed as burdens are the ones left at the shelter.. And if this continues Tiger might very well feel like a burden, when he really isn't given the right guidance. Perhaps your family members can help pitch in or give you a little loan to help get the trainer?
We've saved up nearly £200 thus far, so in honesty we aren't far off an evaluation and I think John found a lady that he likes the sound of though I'll have to ask him for her name etc. Like I said to Tara we are seeing a trainer, she's been in the business for a long time and when we explained the situation with money and rescuing, moving house etc she was more than happy to evaluate him at her center for free, she's not a behaviorist but it's a step we can take whilst we're saving up for someone else. In terms of borrowing from family, from my side we've borrowed £3000 already and from Johns side half of them have recently lost jobs so there isn't much we can ask from them. I've asked friends to give us money instead of items, but it's the same deal, nobodies got a lot of anything at the minute and it's hard to ask them.
I must say that last nights post was one of the lower points I've had over the last 48/72 hours and today I've spent a lot of time walking with John, we talked about a lot of what I "saw" in Tiger and realised that I was just humanizing the dog beyond reason. Tiger is the same when I leave the house, he doesn't leave the front door for a few hours just in case I come back. He is at his most comfortable when everyones together and it is the only time he comes into the bedroom, if we're both there. We walked him with the muzzle and it's true what the guy who sold it to us said. It really calmed him down. His initial excitement period is a lot short but the whole time is spent trying to get the thing off. After about 5 minutes and a couple of "ah, leave it"s he walks by our side, only venturing off in order to sniff and pee. He only jumped at one dog today and I can't say I blame him, the thing was a horror, it tried to bite Tigers leg. I clicked my fingers to the left of it and it turned it's head to look at me so I walked it off while John walked Tiger in the opposite direction. He responded well to the correction of an old Jack Russell mix, she didn't want to be sniffed and so she growled, Tiger backed up straight away so we praised him for responding correctly to the other dogs body language.
I know that at the moment we're just muddling through and that there's a settling in period and believe me when I say I understand the importance of talking to a professional but until we're in a position to do that where an emergency with money wont put is in dyer straits theres nothing we can do. We're doing our best and I really appreciate the concern here, it's the reason we sign in, but please believe me when I say our lack of action isn't through complacency or a belief we can do it ourselves, we just have to be careful at the moment with our money.
And what I said last night about being scared of Tiger isn't strictly true. I was more worried I'd put him in a situation like that again combined with the belief he'd decided I wasn't to be trusted. I walked him the whole time today and I felt comfortable that I could control him, the only time I handed over the lead was to walk down the hill because it was wet and my trainers kept slipping, I didn't want to risk him jumping and me sliding over and hurting him in my fall or releasing him in my shock. That's where we met the biting westie.
I wont lie, Irene, directly after the "attack" as it were, I felt like I couldn't keep him but after about an hour I realised that not only had we made a commitment to him and that if I were to give him up know I'd be sentencing him to a life of going stir crazy in a shelter because he'd be labled as "best for no children, no cats, no other dogs" and those Akitas have been in Shelters for years. Not only that but I love him. The silly dog that he is. I'm not giving up. I'm just going to have to try harder. We're going to make an "obedience" video later so show off his mad skillz
Let me tell you a little bit about my story with Bear. It might help you understand that I sympathize with where you are at. I was young, only 18 years old, when I got a call from my Uncle who breeds Rotts. He was away at a show and had been called by our local Rott Rescue team that they had picked up a 5 month old male from a home where he was starved, only fed raw meat (you know to make him mean...lol), and was also possibly given Methamphetimines (?sp) to make him more aggressive. They didn't have a place for him, and knew if they took him down to the shelter he would automatically be put to sleep. Given my experience at having dogs my whole life, my Uncle asked me to pick up the dog (who they did say was pretty friendly, scared but friendly) and have him spend the night at my house. My roommate and I drove to get him. He seemed like a normal puppy, skinny and scared but you could see a good temperment in his eyes.
That night I took Bear home. He had some food aggression issues, hoarding and such. But who could blaim him. It was scary how underweight he was. I ofcourse was not ready to pick up a dog. I had gotten some food and such, but I didn't have a kennel for him or a crate or anything. That night he wouldn't go to sleep, and I needed to get some so I let him sleep in my room on the floor. I heard him growling at any movement outside or creaking of the house. I can't tell you how scared I was. I have never felt that way about an animal in my life. I felt like I had a wild Mountain Lion in my room that could attack at anytime. I remember that night like it was yesterday, 15 years later. I didn't sleep at all.
Given what he had been through, I didn't have the confidence in myself to know that I could handle him. Two days later, I decided that my home would be his forever home, but I still lacked the confidence to walk him, play with him like a puppy should be played with, and even at times train him. I was in college and renting a house, working two jobs, and well BROKE! lol. It took a lot of calls, and I was lucky that I had the rescue group to pull resources from. There are groups out there that will help. I'm sure there are Akita activists in your area who could push you in the right direction.
Bear and I, with the help of others spent 13 wonderful years together. Even as I talk about him now, I have tears in my eyes. I don't know if we would've lasted without some assistance in the beginning. He was just too much dog for me with too sad of a past that left him traumatized. I was a little harsh. Yes I understand that. I'm Italian and I say things bluntly at times. I just hope that you and Tiger can have the life that Bear and I had, but it will take some professional guidance in the beginning. I am not rich by any means, I know how expensive dogs are. I just shipped a Kai to my home and am going through the same expenses in the same bad economy. I know it's hard, and I do sympathize with everything you are going through. I see a lot of Bear and I in you and Tiger.
Sorry I took up so much of your thread with this story, but I hope that it helps you understand where I am coming from. I've been where you are.
don't apologize, it's a beautiful story. We're as determined as you were, I think. We know that it's important for him and us to see a professional and we know that the longer we wait the, potentially, worse he could get but aside from this one incident he'd been nearly perfect settling in. I'd been dying to get on here to tell the story so I could hear some comfort or advice, John was a little upset at the time that I hadn't been able to catch him and that I'd not attached the lead correctly and it made it all the worse for me. Of course we were both upset and have since spoken about it.
We have got the full support of a group called The Friends Of Akitas Trust, who came to assess Tiger when we hadn't fully decided (for all of 5 minutes!) that we'd keep him, and we're seeing some of them soon (the 5th of sept? We missed one last week due to moving). I hadn't mentioned it above because I'd assumed it'd be seen as avoiding a professional and letting "amatures" have a free try. Me and John are living out of boxes and on a free sofa and bed because we're saving every last bit of our wages to put a fence in the garden, pay for his vets bills and save for the behaviorist. We have got local "experts" (in terms of having rescued Akitas for a long, long time) as such and they have their own "behaviorists" working in the shelter who will be walking with Tiger when we see them, I guess I was a bit scared to mention it in case I got told to just go to a behaviorist already. Not that I don't appreciate the advice, I guess I was just a bit touchy I still put a lot of the blame of the experience from the other day at my own doorstep even though I can see that Tiger has suffered nothing from it.
I might add, if anything this experience with the other dog has calmed him a little though that could be the effect of the muzzle. Or both. He still jumps up, excited, but it's less so now. John has commented that "Tiger learnt from that dog to wind his neck in and learn to read when a dog doesn't want to play".
I'm taking him out, after his nap, to play with the flexi-lead and frisbee in the garden. We don't use the flexi anywhere other than the garden because I don't want him to be walking nicely, sprint for a dog, get snapped back by the lead at full pelt and hurt himself. But till we have a fence, it at least gives him an opportunity to meander here and there checking for the scent of our local foxes in our garden without having to jump fences chasing him if he's off lead
promise of pictures.
ps. You weren't blunt at all, I understand. The reason we come here is because of all the sincere advice from seasoned veterans of all dogs, not just akitas, shibas etc. Though I must say the spam also brings me back.
The first link below may help clarify the difference between behaviorist and animal trainer
"Many people are confused over the difference between an animal behavior consultant and an animal trainer. What is the difference and does it matter? Yes, it does matter but the gap has been closing in recent years. Many animal behavior consultants are also trainers, but not all; most trainers are not animal behavior consultants--but some are."
from what John explained to me (I'd thought the same) a trainer, or at least the trainers we've spoken to, work more with commands, handling etc where as a behaviorist (or at least the woman he has spoken to) is trained specifically in how to recognise certain behaviors (such as dog reactiveness or aggression) and combat those behaviors (ie, hopefully, to give our dog some manners when meeting new dogs and when, if ever, playing).
I think theres definitely a difference because I can see no trainer charging £400 per session. If we can get the help we need from the Akita Shelters (who, I'm told, have people who are trained to recognise such things as reactiveness etc in order to place them in new homes. I assume this would be the same as what a behaviorist looks at?) and the trainer we've settled for (who charges £30 a session) then we can comfortably save for a behaviorist whilst keeping Tiger safe and happy. If behaviorist and trainer are the same thing, then I'm intrigued to see what this lady has to offer, but not £400 intrigued.
On a more positive note, got the ol' flexi-lead and his rubba, squeaky kong thing out in the garden with the camera. It was difficult to multi-task with John out of the house but the shots aren't too bad. They at least capture the size of Tigers soon to be kingdom. Darn fence.
(from the first night we had him. John wanted to get him up on his front two legs on the stump. He wouldn't do it, he rarely does what he does not want to. They're both as stubborn as each other.)
The king deigning his willing servant with a glance in my direction at his name.
The result of fetch in our house is usually a really excited tiger hopping on his butt to get at the toy in your hand, a really good sit and stay and then a confused "why the hell did you throw that perfectly good toy away?" look before standing, woefully, to find the chew, chew it, drop it and forget it. This photo is mid chew. It's lost in the long grass now, too dark to find it.
We always walk the perimeter in our garden. This is the spot where his in heat friend (of the family) Amber lay for a good hour or so whilst he was still at Johns friends. He sniffs it every time. Same spot. No peeing. Just a good ol' sniff to see if she's been back.
The very edge of our new garden. Not far from the fox run and the fox trap that the old neighbours set up, we've dismantled it but not managed to pull it all up yet so Tiger has a strict "leave it" command every time he gets up there, he's usually pretty good with it too
Patrice put it very well. There is a difference, and yes behaviorists are more expensive.
I'm not so worried about Tiger. He's a dog, being a dog that needs some training. Sounds like he went a couple years without any. I could tell that the second you said in your first story that he had been fed scraps. IMO that's a form of neglect right there. We are responsible for the proper nutrition of our animals.
I think the behaviorist, or someone alike, will help you with your self esteem and comfort levels in engaging/training/living with him. Us humans usually need more training than our dogs. lololol. :-] You said it yourself, he obeys commands quickly. Behaviorists work with us sometimes more than with the dogs. That's a specialty that a trainer does not have.
well a trainer is a good start, as I think you guys plus Tiger need to walk properly on a leash (15min intially at a walk of unrulyness from an Akita is certainly not good) and use the right collars or learn how to use them properly. 400 pounds does seem like alot...is that for as many sessions as needed to solve a particular issue or per session?
Tara you're right, it's definitely something we want to do, bearing in mind we plan on rescuing more akitas in the future (whether we will have this opportunity whilst Tiger is with us - which will be for the rest of his life - is an unknown and something we'll also learn from a behaviorist) it's something me and John need to learn about, and we're excited to learn about. "Dog psychology" as it were, is fascinating to both of us. Also I refuse to be scared of my dog, at the very least it's unfair on him because he'll know I'm scared and it'll cause him to react.
Irene, we're hoping that being as how he's only ever been walked in his entire life within the last month, that the time it takes for him to calm down will lessen. It used to be the whole walk and it's slowing with time. Also we're hoping that the space in the garden (fence pending) to run with him and not have the leash barring him from free movement will release a bit of pent up tension. We shall see. From what I understand the £400 should be the sole cost, though I get the impression from John that it depends on the variety of problems and how severe they are, I do know that the £400 was an estimate for the lady based on previous consulations and she did stress that each case was different, according to John. He's not here so I can't ask :S
I apologise for the size of these, but the smaller ones not only take a long time to upload and edit but they just don't look as good, ha.
We took Tiger for a long walk today as he'll be alone tonight for around 4 or 5 hours.
As I write this, he's sleeping on my feet in front of the settee. He snores, sometimes. Though that might be John, who is also sleeping near us in the dog bed.
At the local "dog park" we met a German Shepherd off leash. The owner started shouting at "Jesse" to come back as she approached Tiger (who is muzzled, leashed and stood calmy between me and John), he was shouting rather aggressively at his dog and then collared her before saying "it's ok, got it, I saw the muzzle". I tried to explain the muzzle was more to make us feel calmer walking with him until we can find help to see his issues with other dogs and that he's never bitten anyone or any dog but he walked away. Everybody else at the dog park thanks us for being "responsible owners" and not taking that risk. Grr. If he'd just let his dog sniff Tiger and allow a little interaction it would've been so much better.
claire can i just add i think your doing a wonderful thing by this boy but please be careful when taking advice from anyone from akita rescue (whether that is FOA JAWT OR AR&W), the people that are involved myself included are not trainers or behaviorist but are just pet owners like myself that volunteer to assess dogs coming in and home check potential homes and are no way quailfied to deal with any issues your boy may have. infact have no formal training at all. taking the wrong advice from someone could potentially do this boy more harm than good and while many of them are experienced pet owners your boy need to see someone who is professionaly trained to deal with his problems.
His muzzle might help ward off other dogs and their owners, now that an Akita is muzzled, I think it sends a "dangerous dog" warning out there... which can be good if you don't want people allowing their off leash (or on, flexi) being allowed to just come up.
However, like the above incident - now he can't defend himself from a dog like the illegal Tosa - but since you are responsible and have him on leash, hopefully you wont' have that incident until you can work with a behavior specialist.
Having a dog is a huge learning experience, but the learning curve is rather steep - especially when it seems half the time you are learning from a mistake you made! I've done the same thing, and it surprises me how much I've learned in only three years. I grew up with dogs, always had dogs, thought myself pretty knowledgeable and still what I have learned since owning Shiba Inu has blew my mind. In your descriptions above of Tiger, the situations and your explanations, I think you have a GREAT understanding of the dog, of what you should be doing and what you have room to learn from a professional. Keep up the great work - Tiger is going to be so proud of you! He's lucky that you have found each other!
Venus, thanks for the heads up, I guess I kind of assumed that at least some of them would have training because it seems like an important thing when placing dogs in a new home but I would've inquired before I took advice in the first place we'll definitely be seeing a behaviorist regardless of how well he does with us on our own. Just because he "learns" to behave the way we want doesn't mean there wont be deep seated issues that could rear their head. It's the right thing to do, just not possible right now. It's on the top of our to do list though
Jen (or John) thank you that was a really nice comment, it's made my day. It really is a rather steep learning thing, what kept me going the most was remembering a comment from Brad in a post somewhere that said the very same thing about learning from mistakes they've made!
I worried about the muzzle thing too, not only because he would have no defense should anything like that happen again (aside from his massive size, lol) but because of the memory of the kids threatening to stab my dog (not sure if I told this story, basically Tiger barked at a gang of kids and they threatened to stab him etc etc, John came to save me) however I don't walk him after dark now and I would rather run full pelt than feel like he'd be some kind of weapon or threat (I seriously doubt he even would, to be honest) and with regards to other dogs he didn't bite the Tosa pup at all, he just stood there and took it so I doubt it'll make any difference and even with thorough training and guidance from a professional he'll never be off leash and I'll protect him should a dog try to attack. It's what I'm there for. He keeps my toes warm at night and I'll keep away nasty dogs.
I am trying to spread the message when we talk to people at the dog park that he's not a dangerous dog as such, it's just the more responsible option based on his situation and how little we know from his previous interactions, I don't want people flinching and moving away but most people have understood and been very good about it
I am glad you posted the photos of Tiger in his "mask"- he doesn't look like it bothers him, and it helps me feel better as I sometimes think I should fit Sage a muzzle. It looks so normal seeing it in photo after photo and that TIger looks unruffled by it. Do more people seem comforted that he's in a muzzle, or frightened of him because of the muzzle?
chrystal my akita boy had aggression issues, he couldn't cope with people round his face and woud snap at strangers if they tried to stroke him so he was always muzzled when out in public. to protect anyone that may not listen to me asking them to back off and to protect him, i though that it would stop people approaching him but it never had a negative effect on the amount of people who wanted to pet him cause he was so cute. it got to the stage where i just put myself between him and anyone else and venus between them and me cause she adores the attention and it ment the mars wasn't stressed so much.
Sage only has strange-dog-aggression- he loves people and his circle of dog buddies- and I would not want to make people afraid of him because he has super sensitive radar and if he picks up attitude in people, he is very confused and wary of them- he just looks at me with this huge question mark over his head. The muzzle seems smart for when I must bring him out to the vet waiting room, but I am encouraged (for us) that you find people weren't afraid of Mars (although you wished they'd give him some space!)
I suppose a calm dog in a muzzle doesnt worry anyone. But an overreacting dog is scary either way. Tiger looks pretty cheerful and I think if I met him with Claire or John on a walk, I'd ask if it was alright to meet him!
at first I was reluctant to muzzle him, because he's not really aggressive, I thought it might make people afraid of him ( and just a little bit because I like having the best looking dog in the park lol). He doesn't ever bite, but he does mouth things sometimes if he's unhappy (one man who told me he bred akita's found his rib injury and kept poking it over and over again, and he mouthed towards some kid who was jumping in front of him to wind him up, and the mom thought he was going to bite).
at first he really didn't like the muzzle, but now when he sees it he reacts the same way as he does to his lead (excitement). For the first five minutes of the walk he tries to pull it off but after that he's ok with it. When he's got it on he walks ten times calmer.
In terms of other people, it actually calms people nearby to him, which means we can have better socializing experiences with him. We've only had one guy who was an idiot about it. At the end of the day, when you talk about dog ownership all you hear off people is 'responsibility responsibility responsibility', yet you get very few people willing to take responsible steps.
one thing I will say is that I had to buy 6 muzzles before i got one that fitted and stayed on his big silly face. If anyone else is considering muzzling (and lets be honest, if your dog ever bit a person in this country, the most lenient outcome would be that you had to muzzle the dog, if you ever got it back at all), I bought a Baskerville Size 13 Wide for Tiger
Chrystal, whilst Johns answered most of your question I'll just add that, in our country (UK) at least, it's made most dog owners more relaxed. You're definitely right about our dogs picking up on the vibes people are giving out and it's meant more people are less "omg, omg, big dog, get our pup out of here NOW before he becomes dinner" and are more willing to let their dogs interact in a natural way, which is definitely having a positive effect on Tiger. I know your dog (sage, I think?) is probably never going to be in a position where he'll be completely comfortable but the muzzle definitely works in calming other dog owners.
I must say that it's true what the muzzle companies say that it has a calming effect on the dog (if you can introduce it in a positive way which I have no doubt you can and would). They say that because the muzzle rests on the underneath of the mouth it has a soothing effect. I don't know if thats the reason he's a lot calmer walking with it on, but whatever it is, it's working.
Also, I think it was kristine that mentioned the 15 minutes of out of control walking needing work and the muzzle has cut it down to 5 minutes. Hopefully with a lot more calm walks and obedience work this will be 0 minutes
Tigers the same in the vets. A monster in the waiting room (dog dependent, there are so many yappy little dogs under no control because it's "just being cute and saying hello" that I lose my mind. The calmer ones mean he's calmer but unfortunately we don't see many of those at the vets!) and then lovely in the exam room!
According to the guy we spoke to, they don't sell the wire ones in this country (maybe just in that store?) but according to the guy and our vet the wire ones sometimes make the dogs react a little stronger to them because they don't rest as comfortably? I don't know the truth in it because not only have we not tried one but I don't see it making a difference (and the guy probably just wanted to sell us that one, for his sales, and the vet could see we had the plastic one already), unless it hasn't got the felt part underneath like ours does. On our muzzle (I'll take a photo if I remember) it has a small, red felt part where his nose/chin touch the muzzle, this is supposed to be the part that calms him. I can see the plastic being lighter material and that would probably make a difference too. It's hard to say. All I can say for definite is that we're really happy with the muzzle and the effect it's had on both Tiger, us and other people.
John also adds that with the plastic, if there was an incident with another dog it would probably have less chance or injuring either dog because it's plastic which would be a bit softer.
You and Sage are my inspiration when it comes to Tiger and his issues, I'm really proud of the way you cope with him and his issues, I don't think he could have found a better person than you! Its lovely that instead of either giving him up or forcing him into situations he may never cope with that you've come up with a way to work slowly with him and accept that some things may never be. You're our mentor!
It's fairly obvious that Tigers settling in with me and John. He is much more badly behaved than he was in the first week. He gets walked before we go to work for a long time, though I suspect it will have to be increased because when I get home he is absolutely beside himself with excitement. At first when we came home he'd be excited, he'd jump but it'd last for a minute max and then he'd accept some quiet fussing and inane chit chat (from me. I like to tell him how my day went, he also chooses which fruit juice I have in the morning. Makes me smile) but the past two days, despite the fact that today his walk was longer in an attempt to tire him out he has been a menace! Yesterday he was so excited he could barely walk. He was mostly walking on his hind two legs, he was crashing about the front room, ramming into walls and furniture (not that we have a lot of the latter). I tried ignoring him till he'd calmed down before fussing him but he just got wilder, he nipped me twice which earnt him a time out in the front room for 30 seconds, then the second time a minute. Whilst sat in the front room (in between time outs) I ignored him for a full 10 minutes before I gave in, leashed him up and took him for a jog around the garden, then he calmed down.
Today I come home to much of the same, despite the fact he was given a longer walk and I came home earlier from work (it took some persuading), so I do the same. He's still excited now! He's alone for between 4 - 6 hours, yesterday 6 but expecting much of the same I was only gone for 5 today and I think John left for work late so it would have been 4 totally on his own. He's also been in the bin, something he was never interested in before (not here or with Rich when he was on 'holiday') and broken a plate though I have no idea how he managed to get it from the sink and onto the floor.
I'm thinking of increasing his walks even further and trying to find something for him to chew on and play with during the day. It needs to be durable because I suspect he'll devour most things. Any suggestions?
I must say that despite the annoying bad behaviors we thought we'd quashed in him (mouthing and jumping) he has developed a new style. He knows that jumping up uninvited wont work (we step back and say "Floor" and reward him with a good boy and a pet when he misses or when he starts to jump and then stops) so he jumps up, bunny hops on his two legs back and lands. It is adorable. I'll have to get my phone out for when I get home tomorrow so I can catch it.
Also, whilst I'm rambling (again) we're trying to train him not to do "paw" (or shake, as some may call it). It's like he learnt to sit and do paw as a combination and he does it automatically when he sits (when he's excited, more so than when he's calmer). We're basically just saying sit with our hand signal and not rewarding the sit-paw. Is this the best way to train it out of him?
I did notice, youtubing dog obedience, that some people have a line of tricks they trot out for the camera and most times it seems like the dog isn't responding to the command but knows that it will be asked these commands in order, or together and just trots them out. I don't want that from Tiger, I want more understanding because with his strange dog issues it's going to be important to have him actually listen, not perform. Does that even make sense? Sorry everyone, I'm new at this.
Best thing is a Kong toy stuffed with Peanut Butter or Yogurt and Carob Chips FROZEN. Make one the night before and give it to him when you leave, it will last for a while and keep him busy.
We bought him a kong and filled it with something the guy gave us, (before we'd really looked into the health issues of certain foods, we're trying to keep his diet as bland as possible at the moment due to occasional orange poops) and Tiger was just not interested (I guess he figured, ew, what on earth are you trying to feed me?). I gave the bottle to Johns dad for his dog because she loves it. It hadn't occurred to me to try another food, sometimes there's so much going on I need a little kick in the head to get my brain jump-started again
Comments
A lot of us have been through this. I worked extensively with Bear, my Rott companion of 13 years, and multiple trainers and behaviorists with him. He had special needs and it was my first time having a dog in my home as an adult (without the guidance of my parents). Get on top of this. It's not healthy to be scared to walk your own dog. Not for you and not for him. At the same time, it sounds like you are insecure. You're blaiming yourself because you think that you should just know how to take care of a dog. No one just knows. It's part of this forum to support eachother on what we don't know, but I think you need more one on one assistance from an expert.
edited to include that once Tiger has proof of up to date shots we've been admitted into an obedience class for free, not to participate, but so that the owners of the group can assess Tiger. It is not a behaviorist and they are no experts but it is all we can do in the mean time.
That was the most i've read in a very long time..i had to do it in 2 sittings!
Bottom line, and I know how hard it is when you've just bought your first place, bottom line is you need a trainer/behaviorist. We got one when we first got Spuds, and we thought it was to train the dog, but it was to train US. If it's a good trainer you'll get a wealth of information from your first session, trust me.
I think Tiger has been through quite a bit being moved around so it also sounds like there hasn't been consistent expectations or life style. The dog will look to the individual that provides the most confidence and makes him feel the most comfortable in high threshold situations. Some animals do gravitate to one gender in the household more than the other. However he has not been with you all long enough to form a true bias personally toward you. There are techniques that can bring a positive relationship back. You need someone to help you with developing your skill set and helping you stay safe and keeping Tiger and others safe as well.
So instead of beating yourself up I would calling someone such as Learning About Dogs and ask if they can recommend a good behaviorist/trainer for an evaluation of Tiger in your area. Usually trainers know each other or have enough connections they can put you through to someone closer to your area.
It can't hurt to have at least one private eval. session to get you started and then you can back it up with a quality center once the core eval. has been done.
Here's the link ( I am presuming you live in the UK....if not just shout out and maybe someone here will have contact for your country of origin).
http://www.learningaboutdogs.co.uk/
PO Box 13, Chipping Campden, Glos. GL55 6WX. 0(+44)1386 430189
Really you don't want to want too long.... retreating to the house is like stuffing a cork in a soda bottle hoping the pressure goes flat. It doesn't really work so well in regard to dogs. You need help with adjustments and handling so I would try to get things addressed soon.
Snf
PS: Like Irene mentions below......as an idea do you think that your friends or family will (in the name of housewarming spot you a loan) for getting you all settled?? Maybe a garage sale ....I know when we moved there was stuff that we didn't really need that brought in a little cash.
I must say that last nights post was one of the lower points I've had over the last 48/72 hours and today I've spent a lot of time walking with John, we talked about a lot of what I "saw" in Tiger and realised that I was just humanizing the dog beyond reason. Tiger is the same when I leave the house, he doesn't leave the front door for a few hours just in case I come back. He is at his most comfortable when everyones together and it is the only time he comes into the bedroom, if we're both there. We walked him with the muzzle and it's true what the guy who sold it to us said. It really calmed him down. His initial excitement period is a lot short but the whole time is spent trying to get the thing off. After about 5 minutes and a couple of "ah, leave it"s he walks by our side, only venturing off in order to sniff and pee. He only jumped at one dog today and I can't say I blame him, the thing was a horror, it tried to bite Tigers leg. I clicked my fingers to the left of it and it turned it's head to look at me so I walked it off while John walked Tiger in the opposite direction. He responded well to the correction of an old Jack Russell mix, she didn't want to be sniffed and so she growled, Tiger backed up straight away so we praised him for responding correctly to the other dogs body language.
I know that at the moment we're just muddling through and that there's a settling in period and believe me when I say I understand the importance of talking to a professional but until we're in a position to do that where an emergency with money wont put is in dyer straits theres nothing we can do. We're doing our best and I really appreciate the concern here, it's the reason we sign in, but please believe me when I say our lack of action isn't through complacency or a belief we can do it ourselves, we just have to be careful at the moment with our money.
And what I said last night about being scared of Tiger isn't strictly true. I was more worried I'd put him in a situation like that again combined with the belief he'd decided I wasn't to be trusted. I walked him the whole time today and I felt comfortable that I could control him, the only time I handed over the lead was to walk down the hill because it was wet and my trainers kept slipping, I didn't want to risk him jumping and me sliding over and hurting him in my fall or releasing him in my shock. That's where we met the biting westie.
I wont lie, Irene, directly after the "attack" as it were, I felt like I couldn't keep him but after about an hour I realised that not only had we made a commitment to him and that if I were to give him up know I'd be sentencing him to a life of going stir crazy in a shelter because he'd be labled as "best for no children, no cats, no other dogs" and those Akitas have been in Shelters for years. Not only that but I love him. The silly dog that he is. I'm not giving up. I'm just going to have to try harder. We're going to make an "obedience" video later so show off his mad skillz
That night I took Bear home. He had some food aggression issues, hoarding and such. But who could blaim him. It was scary how underweight he was. I ofcourse was not ready to pick up a dog. I had gotten some food and such, but I didn't have a kennel for him or a crate or anything. That night he wouldn't go to sleep, and I needed to get some so I let him sleep in my room on the floor. I heard him growling at any movement outside or creaking of the house. I can't tell you how scared I was. I have never felt that way about an animal in my life. I felt like I had a wild Mountain Lion in my room that could attack at anytime. I remember that night like it was yesterday, 15 years later. I didn't sleep at all.
Given what he had been through, I didn't have the confidence in myself to know that I could handle him. Two days later, I decided that my home would be his forever home, but I still lacked the confidence to walk him, play with him like a puppy should be played with, and even at times train him. I was in college and renting a house, working two jobs, and well BROKE! lol. It took a lot of calls, and I was lucky that I had the rescue group to pull resources from. There are groups out there that will help. I'm sure there are Akita activists in your area who could push you in the right direction.
Bear and I, with the help of others spent 13 wonderful years together. Even as I talk about him now, I have tears in my eyes. I don't know if we would've lasted without some assistance in the beginning. He was just too much dog for me with too sad of a past that left him traumatized. I was a little harsh. Yes I understand that. I'm Italian and I say things bluntly at times. I just hope that you and Tiger can have the life that Bear and I had, but it will take some professional guidance in the beginning. I am not rich by any means, I know how expensive dogs are. I just shipped a Kai to my home and am going through the same expenses in the same bad economy. I know it's hard, and I do sympathize with everything you are going through. I see a lot of Bear and I in you and Tiger.
Sorry I took up so much of your thread with this story, but I hope that it helps you understand where I am coming from. I've been where you are.
We have got the full support of a group called The Friends Of Akitas Trust, who came to assess Tiger when we hadn't fully decided (for all of 5 minutes!) that we'd keep him, and we're seeing some of them soon (the 5th of sept? We missed one last week due to moving). I hadn't mentioned it above because I'd assumed it'd be seen as avoiding a professional and letting "amatures" have a free try. Me and John are living out of boxes and on a free sofa and bed because we're saving every last bit of our wages to put a fence in the garden, pay for his vets bills and save for the behaviorist. We have got local "experts" (in terms of having rescued Akitas for a long, long time) as such and they have their own "behaviorists" working in the shelter who will be walking with Tiger when we see them, I guess I was a bit scared to mention it in case I got told to just go to a behaviorist already. Not that I don't appreciate the advice, I guess I was just a bit touchy
I might add, if anything this experience with the other dog has calmed him a little though that could be the effect of the muzzle. Or both. He still jumps up, excited, but it's less so now. John has commented that "Tiger learnt from that dog to wind his neck in and learn to read when a dog doesn't want to play".
I'm taking him out, after his nap, to play with the flexi-lead and frisbee in the garden. We don't use the flexi anywhere other than the garden because I don't want him to be walking nicely, sprint for a dog, get snapped back by the lead at full pelt and hurt himself. But till we have a fence, it at least gives him an opportunity to meander here and there checking for the scent of our local foxes in our garden without having to jump fences chasing him if he's off lead
promise of pictures.
ps. You weren't blunt at all, I understand. The reason we come here is because of all the sincere advice from seasoned veterans of all dogs, not just akitas, shibas etc. Though I must say the spam also brings me back.
also, unless I've mistaken, I assumed behaviourist/trainer were one in the same?
"Many people are confused over the difference between an animal behavior consultant and an animal trainer. What is the difference and does it matter? Yes, it does matter but the gap has been closing in recent years. Many animal behavior consultants are also trainers, but not all; most trainers are not animal behavior consultants--but some are."
http://www.arkanimals.com/ark/dg_define_pet_behaviorist_trainer.html
Certified Animal Behaviorists in the U.S.
http://abs.animalbehavior.org/ABSAppliedBehavior/caab-directory
Snf
I think theres definitely a difference because I can see no trainer charging £400 per session. If we can get the help we need from the Akita Shelters (who, I'm told, have people who are trained to recognise such things as reactiveness etc in order to place them in new homes. I assume this would be the same as what a behaviorist looks at?) and the trainer we've settled for (who charges £30 a session) then we can comfortably save for a behaviorist whilst keeping Tiger safe and happy. If behaviorist and trainer are the same thing, then I'm intrigued to see what this lady has to offer, but not £400 intrigued.
On a more positive note, got the ol' flexi-lead and his rubba, squeaky kong thing out in the garden with the camera. It was difficult to multi-task with John out of the house but the shots aren't too bad. They at least capture the size of Tigers soon to be kingdom. Darn fence.
(from the first night we had him. John wanted to get him up on his front two legs on the stump. He wouldn't do it, he rarely does what he does not want to. They're both as stubborn as each other.)
The king deigning his willing servant with a glance in my direction at his name.
The result of fetch in our house is usually a really excited tiger hopping on his butt to get at the toy in your hand, a really good sit and stay and then a confused "why the hell did you throw that perfectly good toy away?" look before standing, woefully, to find the chew, chew it, drop it and forget it. This photo is mid chew. It's lost in the long grass now, too dark to find it.
We always walk the perimeter in our garden. This is the spot where his in heat friend (of the family) Amber lay for a good hour or so whilst he was still at Johns friends. He sniffs it every time. Same spot. No peeing. Just a good ol' sniff to see if she's been back.
The very edge of our new garden. Not far from the fox run and the fox trap that the old neighbours set up, we've dismantled it but not managed to pull it all up yet so Tiger has a strict "leave it" command every time he gets up there, he's usually pretty good with it too
Enjoy
I'm not so worried about Tiger. He's a dog, being a dog that needs some training. Sounds like he went a couple years without any. I could tell that the second you said in your first story that he had been fed scraps. IMO that's a form of neglect right there. We are responsible for the proper nutrition of our animals.
I think the behaviorist, or someone alike, will help you with your self esteem and comfort levels in engaging/training/living with him. Us humans usually need more training than our dogs. lololol. :-] You said it yourself, he obeys commands quickly. Behaviorists work with us sometimes more than with the dogs. That's a specialty that a trainer does not have.
well a trainer is a good start, as I think you guys plus Tiger need to walk properly on a leash (15min intially at a walk of unrulyness from an Akita is certainly not good) and use the right collars or learn how to use them properly. 400 pounds does seem like alot...is that for as many sessions as needed to solve a particular issue or per session?
Irene, we're hoping that being as how he's only ever been walked in his entire life within the last month, that the time it takes for him to calm down will lessen. It used to be the whole walk and it's slowing with time. Also we're hoping that the space in the garden (fence pending) to run with him and not have the leash barring him from free movement will release a bit of pent up tension. We shall see. From what I understand the £400 should be the sole cost, though I get the impression from John that it depends on the variety of problems and how severe they are, I do know that the £400 was an estimate for the lady based on previous consulations and she did stress that each case was different, according to John. He's not here so I can't ask :S
We took Tiger for a long walk today as he'll be alone tonight for around 4 or 5 hours.
As I write this, he's sleeping on my feet in front of the settee. He snores, sometimes. Though that might be John, who is also sleeping near us in the dog bed.
At the local "dog park" we met a German Shepherd off leash. The owner started shouting at "Jesse" to come back as she approached Tiger (who is muzzled, leashed and stood calmy between me and John), he was shouting rather aggressively at his dog and then collared her before saying "it's ok, got it, I saw the muzzle". I tried to explain the muzzle was more to make us feel calmer walking with him until we can find help to see his issues with other dogs and that he's never bitten anyone or any dog but he walked away. Everybody else at the dog park thanks us for being "responsible owners" and not taking that risk. Grr. If he'd just let his dog sniff Tiger and allow a little interaction it would've been so much better.
His muzzle might help ward off other dogs and their owners, now that an Akita is muzzled, I think it sends a "dangerous dog" warning out there... which can be good if you don't want people allowing their off leash (or on, flexi) being allowed to just come up.
However, like the above incident - now he can't defend himself from a dog like the illegal Tosa - but since you are responsible and have him on leash, hopefully you wont' have that incident until you can work with a behavior specialist.
Having a dog is a huge learning experience, but the learning curve is rather steep - especially when it seems half the time you are learning from a mistake you made! I've done the same thing, and it surprises me how much I've learned in only three years. I grew up with dogs, always had dogs, thought myself pretty knowledgeable and still what I have learned since owning Shiba Inu has blew my mind.
In your descriptions above of Tiger, the situations and your explanations, I think you have a GREAT understanding of the dog, of what you should be doing and what you have room to learn from a professional. Keep up the great work - Tiger is going to be so proud of you! He's lucky that you have found each other!
Jen (or John) thank you
I worried about the muzzle thing too, not only because he would have no defense should anything like that happen again (aside from his massive size, lol) but because of the memory of the kids threatening to stab my dog (not sure if I told this story, basically Tiger barked at a gang of kids and they threatened to stab him etc etc, John came to save me) however I don't walk him after dark now and I would rather run full pelt than feel like he'd be some kind of weapon or threat (I seriously doubt he even would, to be honest) and with regards to other dogs he didn't bite the Tosa pup at all, he just stood there and took it so I doubt it'll make any difference and even with thorough training and guidance from a professional he'll never be off leash and I'll protect him should a dog try to attack. It's what I'm there for. He keeps my toes warm at night and I'll keep away nasty dogs.
I am trying to spread the message when we talk to people at the dog park that he's not a dangerous dog as such, it's just the more responsible option based on his situation and how little we know from his previous interactions, I don't want people flinching and moving away but most people have understood and been very good about it
Sage only has strange-dog-aggression- he loves people and his circle of dog buddies- and I would not want to make people afraid of him because he has super sensitive radar and if he picks up attitude in people, he is very confused and wary of them- he just looks at me with this huge question mark over his head. The muzzle seems smart for when I must bring him out to the vet waiting room, but I am encouraged (for us) that you find people weren't afraid of Mars (although you wished they'd give him some space!)
I suppose a calm dog in a muzzle doesnt worry anyone. But an overreacting dog is scary either way. Tiger looks pretty cheerful and I think if I met him with Claire or John on a walk, I'd ask if it was alright to meet him!
at first I was reluctant to muzzle him, because he's not really aggressive, I thought it might make people afraid of him ( and just a little bit because I like having the best looking dog in the park lol). He doesn't ever bite, but he does mouth things sometimes if he's unhappy (one man who told me he bred akita's found his rib injury and kept poking it over and over again, and he mouthed towards some kid who was jumping in front of him to wind him up, and the mom thought he was going to bite).
at first he really didn't like the muzzle, but now when he sees it he reacts the same way as he does to his lead (excitement). For the first five minutes of the walk he tries to pull it off but after that he's ok with it. When he's got it on he walks ten times calmer.
In terms of other people, it actually calms people nearby to him, which means we can have better socializing experiences with him. We've only had one guy who was an idiot about it. At the end of the day, when you talk about dog ownership all you hear off people is 'responsibility responsibility responsibility', yet you get very few people willing to take responsible steps.
one thing I will say is that I had to buy 6 muzzles before i got one that fitted and stayed on his big silly face. If anyone else is considering muzzling (and lets be honest, if your dog ever bit a person in this country, the most lenient outcome would be that you had to muzzle the dog, if you ever got it back at all), I bought a Baskerville Size 13 Wide for Tiger
I must say that it's true what the muzzle companies say that it has a calming effect on the dog (if you can introduce it in a positive way which I have no doubt you can and would). They say that because the muzzle rests on the underneath of the mouth it has a soothing effect. I don't know if thats the reason he's a lot calmer walking with it on, but whatever it is, it's working.
Also, I think it was kristine that mentioned the 15 minutes of out of control walking needing work and the muzzle has cut it down to 5 minutes. Hopefully with a lot more calm walks and obedience work this will be 0 minutes
According to the guy we spoke to, they don't sell the wire ones in this country (maybe just in that store?) but according to the guy and our vet the wire ones sometimes make the dogs react a little stronger to them because they don't rest as comfortably? I don't know the truth in it because not only have we not tried one but I don't see it making a difference (and the guy probably just wanted to sell us that one, for his sales, and the vet could see we had the plastic one already), unless it hasn't got the felt part underneath like ours does. On our muzzle (I'll take a photo if I remember) it has a small, red felt part where his nose/chin touch the muzzle, this is supposed to be the part that calms him. I can see the plastic being lighter material and that would probably make a difference too. It's hard to say. All I can say for definite is that we're really happy with the muzzle and the effect it's had on both Tiger, us and other people.
John also adds that with the plastic, if there was an incident with another dog it would probably have less chance or injuring either dog because it's plastic which would be a bit softer.
You and Sage are my inspiration when it comes to Tiger and his issues,
Today I come home to much of the same, despite the fact he was given a longer walk and I came home earlier from work (it took some persuading), so I do the same. He's still excited now! He's alone for between 4 - 6 hours, yesterday 6 but expecting much of the same I was only gone for 5 today and I think John left for work late so it would have been 4 totally on his own. He's also been in the bin, something he was never interested in before (not here or with Rich when he was on 'holiday') and broken a plate though I have no idea how he managed to get it from the sink and onto the floor.
I'm thinking of increasing his walks even further and trying to find something for him to chew on and play with during the day. It needs to be durable because I suspect he'll devour most things. Any suggestions?
I must say that despite the annoying bad behaviors we thought we'd quashed in him (mouthing and jumping) he has developed a new style. He knows that jumping up uninvited wont work (we step back and say "Floor" and reward him with a good boy and a pet when he misses or when he starts to jump and then stops) so he jumps up, bunny hops on his two legs back and lands. It is adorable. I'll have to get my phone out for when I get home tomorrow so I can catch it.
Also, whilst I'm rambling (again) we're trying to train him not to do "paw" (or shake, as some may call it). It's like he learnt to sit and do paw as a combination and he does it automatically when he sits (when he's excited, more so than when he's calmer). We're basically just saying sit with our hand signal and not rewarding the sit-paw. Is this the best way to train it out of him?
I did notice, youtubing dog obedience, that some people have a line of tricks they trot out for the camera and most times it seems like the dog isn't responding to the command but knows that it will be asked these commands in order, or together and just trots them out. I don't want that from Tiger, I want more understanding because with his strange dog issues it's going to be important to have him actually listen, not perform. Does that even make sense? Sorry everyone, I'm new at this.
Is there anything here we're doing wrong?
Can you get Kong's in the UK?
http://www.kongcompany.com/