"Let me ask you, if something came into your yard that the guardians perceived as a threat (like a coyote or person) do you think that they would just try to kill it or work towards scaring the threat away?"
>>>> Well, this is not an easy question to answer. The short answer is that a threat would be scared off before it entered our yard, and so this type of situation isn't very realistic.
The one thing to keep in mind is that an LGD just wants you to leave. If an LGD is ever barking at you, they are asking you to go away and not to proceed onto their property. All you have to do it turn around and walk away, they will not pursue you (like Blue might).
An LGD's M.O. is basically "shock and awe", that is their main role and mission. They want to scare off a threat by making a lot of noise and a big display, and in most circumstances they are very effective at this, and their "job" ends there. With CO, they use their bark as a warning to not approach their territory, and use a "bark and lunge" bluff to frighten a close threat off (like the UPS guy at our door).
So, the assumption is that a predator or intruder wouldn't continue on their mission once met with the bark or the bluff from the CO. If, in some strange situation, a threat ignored the warning signs, or got into the yard w/o the COs knowing, I'm pretty sure it would go differently depending on the threat (human or animal)...
First, a note on how hard it would be to sneak up on Luytiy: He knows when our neighbor's friend walks over to their house. He cannot see their house well (due to our fence), and the house is far enough away so that he doesn't hear the stranger walking up to it, but he smells the man before he even turns down our street (400+ feet away). Rick, our neighbor, can walk to his friends house and then walk back to his house and Luytiy will just watch at the gate, not making a sound - if he has a friend with him - or if his friend walks over alone - Luytiy will give a very serious warning to him. This is how amazing his sense of smell is.
So, back to your question...
If it was an animal that ignored the warnings or snuck into the property, the COs would make a lot of noise and charge the threat. The threat would more than likely flee, if the threat ended up standing it's ground or getting cornered and fighting back, our CO would attack - if it was a canine (like a Coyote), I'm pretty sure they would kill it, if it was a bear or a large cat, I think they would probably not go for kill and just "bay" the threat there until it figures out how to leave the property or I come out to figure out what to do. They would certainly attack the larger threat if it attacked them first.
If it was a human that ignored the warnings or snuck into the property, I would guess it would go very similarly except that the first line of defense would be to knock the person over and then hold them there (standing on them). If the person just continued to lay there the CO would snarl at them until I came out, if they decided to fight back then they would be bit and chased off. You would have to be a very stupid person to continue into the yard once warned, and if you are so mousy quiet (and odor free) that you could sneak in without the COs knowing - which is really not likely as they small everything - then the pure shock of surpring a CO would probably lead to some serious injuries for you. The COs are at their most extreme when surprised.
An LGDs final action is physical confrontation. From my experience it actually takes a bit to get them there, they would prefer to just scare the crap out of you. On the job, it wouldn't be very effective for the LGD to physically confront a threat every time - they wouldn't survive very long doing that.
Then there is Blue, he is a Personal Protection dog. Blue is a lot different, and is some ways more scary. He doesn't charge the fence line when there is a threat spotted, he just stays in his position and growls until you are close enough for him to make an attack. He gives little warning, and will just burst into a sprint right up to you barking and being very intimidating. If you just stand there, and ignore him, he will stand there and bark at you. If you make a sudden movement toward him he will jump at you and force you down. Blue is probably quicker to bite than our COs are as he seems to crave the combat (the physical confrontation), while the COs just want to be scary. If a dog entered our property, and Blue was on the job, I'm pretty sure that dog wouldn't be leaving our property alive.
Having said all that, if WE bring a new dog in, the COs and Blue don't really care. The Shikoku and Shiba are the ones that get nasty about that, even if WE bring the new dog in.
That first video is really interesting. It seems the living situation your dogs are in produces excellent social skills. Seeing the three of them interact with "limited resources" is a fantastic example. Perhaps the most interesting part of that video is the standoff around 0:22. That's the type of situation that you would probably see escalate among either more reactive dogs (I'm seeing Joey in particular here, or probably even either of your Shikoku based on the brief meeting we had in Madison) or poorly socialized dogs. But for Blue and Luytiy, it was a calm moment of clear communication. Blue was clearly in a position to grab the antler with his head lower than Luytiy's. Luytiy applied calm but assertive (forgive the invocation of Cesar's mantra, but I can't think of more descriptive words) pressure to Blue, maintaining his head position above Blue's. When Blue concedes a few seconds later, he doesn't completely give up. He stays close, keeping his head low respectfully and keeps contact with Luytiy. It's almost like he's saying "fine, you can have it but I'm not happy about it."
That video was exactly what I needed to see this weekend - thanks for posting!
I think thats the beauty of the way you manage your dogs - you know them, and you do not interfere with things they can work out on their own. Its interesting that things can remain civil between three guardian breeds and two higher value items without you or jen being visibly present. Thanks for the lesson
"Having said all that, if WE bring a new dog in, the COs and Blue don't really care. The Shikoku and Shiba are the ones that get nasty about that, even if WE bring the new dog in."
A little off topic, but hypothetically, along those lines, do you believe it could be possible to do dog boarding in a situation like yours where there are so many different personality types in dog already present? So if one of us were to one day own Shiba and Shikoku and a type of LGD, do you think that would be asking for big trouble then by expecting them to be ok with new dogs/puppies frequently comming and going for daycare, or do you think they would eventually get used to it with with the appropriate management practices?
Um, I'm no expert, but I think they would get used to it, tho the younger you started them on that the better. The way I take it is, our Shikoku don't want to fight new dogs, they just want to be very clear on the "rules" of the house and, more importantly, their "rules" of engagement. Once that initial excitement period is passed it's fine... So I think the object would be to manage the initial intros (first 48 hours or so), since that is where most issues will come up.
From our experience, the initial shock of the new dog creates the majority of the hysteria. Even off property, just walking Blue, if he is surprised by a dog his reaction is terrifying while if he knows to expect to see a dog his reaction is a lot less.
Blue is really starting to get his non-puppy serious face. He's such a good looking dog. But I really love how he's running and the akitas are in the back like "Really, dude? We're going to go chill over here ... tell us if some cheese needs chasing and then we'll help."
Blue and Masha seem to be best buds. They are together a lot- I still love that shot back a while ago where she's got him by the loose skin on his back and he's looking back sort of goofy...
Luytiy is rather leonine, isn't he? Its good to be King...
I agree, and I have noticed this before, I read it as 3 different things...
1) Blue is still very immature, he's very much a puppy, so his guarding instinct isn't 100% operational yet.
2) He's a personal protection dog, so his defaults seems to be protecting us and not so much the property.
3) I've never reinforced him guarding the yard. I think if I took the time to do that he would be a more of a property guardian than he is, but I am not as interested in having him guard the property since Luytiy and Masha do that very well. We want Blue to have a PP role, so looking for us when he feels there is a threat is, IMO, the correct response.
Comments
>>>> Well, this is not an easy question to answer. The short answer is that a threat would be scared off before it entered our yard, and so this type of situation isn't very realistic.
The one thing to keep in mind is that an LGD just wants you to leave. If an LGD is ever barking at you, they are asking you to go away and not to proceed onto their property. All you have to do it turn around and walk away, they will not pursue you (like Blue might).
An LGD's M.O. is basically "shock and awe", that is their main role and mission. They want to scare off a threat by making a lot of noise and a big display, and in most circumstances they are very effective at this, and their "job" ends there. With CO, they use their bark as a warning to not approach their territory, and use a "bark and lunge" bluff to frighten a close threat off (like the UPS guy at our door).
So, the assumption is that a predator or intruder wouldn't continue on their mission once met with the bark or the bluff from the CO. If, in some strange situation, a threat ignored the warning signs, or got into the yard w/o the COs knowing, I'm pretty sure it would go differently depending on the threat (human or animal)...
First, a note on how hard it would be to sneak up on Luytiy: He knows when our neighbor's friend walks over to their house. He cannot see their house well (due to our fence), and the house is far enough away so that he doesn't hear the stranger walking up to it, but he smells the man before he even turns down our street (400+ feet away). Rick, our neighbor, can walk to his friends house and then walk back to his house and Luytiy will just watch at the gate, not making a sound - if he has a friend with him - or if his friend walks over alone - Luytiy will give a very serious warning to him. This is how amazing his sense of smell is.
So, back to your question...
If it was an animal that ignored the warnings or snuck into the property, the COs would make a lot of noise and charge the threat. The threat would more than likely flee, if the threat ended up standing it's ground or getting cornered and fighting back, our CO would attack - if it was a canine (like a Coyote), I'm pretty sure they would kill it, if it was a bear or a large cat, I think they would probably not go for kill and just "bay" the threat there until it figures out how to leave the property or I come out to figure out what to do. They would certainly attack the larger threat if it attacked them first.
If it was a human that ignored the warnings or snuck into the property, I would guess it would go very similarly except that the first line of defense would be to knock the person over and then hold them there (standing on them). If the person just continued to lay there the CO would snarl at them until I came out, if they decided to fight back then they would be bit and chased off. You would have to be a very stupid person to continue into the yard once warned, and if you are so mousy quiet (and odor free) that you could sneak in without the COs knowing - which is really not likely as they small everything - then the pure shock of surpring a CO would probably lead to some serious injuries for you. The COs are at their most extreme when surprised.
An LGDs final action is physical confrontation. From my experience it actually takes a bit to get them there, they would prefer to just scare the crap out of you. On the job, it wouldn't be very effective for the LGD to physically confront a threat every time - they wouldn't survive very long doing that.
Then there is Blue, he is a Personal Protection dog. Blue is a lot different, and is some ways more scary. He doesn't charge the fence line when there is a threat spotted, he just stays in his position and growls until you are close enough for him to make an attack. He gives little warning, and will just burst into a sprint right up to you barking and being very intimidating. If you just stand there, and ignore him, he will stand there and bark at you. If you make a sudden movement toward him he will jump at you and force you down. Blue is probably quicker to bite than our COs are as he seems to crave the combat (the physical confrontation), while the COs just want to be scary. If a dog entered our property, and Blue was on the job, I'm pretty sure that dog wouldn't be leaving our property alive.
Having said all that, if WE bring a new dog in, the COs and Blue don't really care. The Shikoku and Shiba are the ones that get nasty about that, even if WE bring the new dog in.
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Very interesting! Thanks for sharing.
I think thats the beauty of the way you manage your dogs - you know them, and you do not interfere with things they can work out on their own. Its interesting that things can remain civil between three guardian breeds and two higher value items without you or jen being visibly present. Thanks for the lesson
btw, Masha looks so much like a lion in the first video.
A little off topic, but hypothetically, along those lines, do you believe it could be possible to do dog boarding in a situation like yours where there are so many different personality types in dog already present? So if one of us were to one day own Shiba and Shikoku and a type of LGD, do you think that would be asking for big trouble then by expecting them to be ok with new dogs/puppies frequently comming and going for daycare, or do you think they would eventually get used to it with with the appropriate management practices?
From our experience, the initial shock of the new dog creates the majority of the hysteria. Even off property, just walking Blue, if he is surprised by a dog his reaction is terrifying while if he knows to expect to see a dog his reaction is a lot less.
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Luytiy & mom:
Blue action shots:
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Blue is really starting to get his non-puppy serious face. He's such a good looking dog. But I really love how he's running and the akitas are in the back like "Really, dude? We're going to go chill over here ... tell us if some cheese needs chasing and then we'll help."
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Cute pics of Blue...
And Luytiy...
*Huge play bow.
Masha:
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Luytiy is rather leonine, isn't he? Its good to be King...
Speaking of Blue, yesterday our neighbor's dog decided to explore our property, Blue was not happy...
Ahi, Loa, and Kona were not too happy either! Thank goodness we had just fed Luytiy & Masha and they were in the barn.
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whereas the shika are not looking back at all.
interesting- how do you read that?
1) Blue is still very immature, he's very much a puppy, so his guarding instinct isn't 100% operational yet.
2) He's a personal protection dog, so his defaults seems to be protecting us and not so much the property.
3) I've never reinforced him guarding the yard. I think if I took the time to do that he would be a more of a property guardian than he is, but I am not as interested in having him guard the property since Luytiy and Masha do that very well. We want Blue to have a PP role, so looking for us when he feels there is a threat is, IMO, the correct response.
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