We have none yet but I do agree with Corina. There're just some you need to have, and have more than one of, or mix and match.. but then there are others you admired/like but will never get...
..and I agree that all of the native Japanese Spitze are markedly different. A Shikoku is not a bigger Shiba, and an Akita is not a bigger Shikoku.. ~_~; I am seriously concerned for whoever thinks that a Kai is just like a bigger Shiba. More concerned for the dog, though.
Concerning the "American Akita"...yeah I have some NIPPO books with old photos...ALL the Akita were originally this type.
I indeed was VERY confused about the Akita and the 2 different "types" of Akita in the beginning. "The Great Japanese Dog" & "Akita"...are they different breeds or simply 2 variations of the same dog???
I'm still not quite clear what had happened. Something about after the importation of the Akita to America..."Japan" decided to go with a more "traditional Japanese" looking dog; with more "asian-like" features - or so I'm told. World War and it's impact on the creation/purpose of the Akita, blah, blah, blah. I haven't done any major studies, just read some material and have spoken with a few people. This is just what has come up.
Interesting stuff. In either case, reguardless of preference on Akitas, both are beautiful and unique for what they are.
*** Oh, I forgot to mention, that BOTH indeed are "products" and "creations" of Japan! That much, I feel I'm pretty clear on. When a certain need for a breed changes, then so does that breed. ***
shikokuspirit, my fiance tried to explain this to me and my dad whilst walking our AA. The way I understood it was exactly as you say. I did recently get corrected on the forum though so I'll just go with the majority . I love my Tiger and I don't really care who he is or what people think he is, he's a wonderful companion. They are both definitely brilliant and different in their own ways, two very outstanding types of dog.
As far as the history goes, the general understanding when you do a little digging is as you describe, from what we've (and by we I mean my fiance) found.
The German Shepherd is a perfect example of how much variation a single breed can have, if selected for certain qualities. There's at least 7 different "types" or variations that I know of in GSD's. I'm sure there's more if one wants to divide each "catergory" into "sections". Each type serves a purpose, however slight or extreme.
By the way...on the "over-generaliztion" of Japanese dogs.
Apparently the common thought process on ALL Asian breeds (not just the Japanese) is that they are "Independent" & "aggressive".
I can understand if this is the kind of behavior people have been exposed to when dealing with SEVERAL Japanese breeds. However, most I think have had limited exposure or mostly have only dealt with already problematic dogs who happen to be a certain asian breed or mix (so automatically, the entire population must all be like this, right?). First impressions are very important. One or two bad experiences and then the whole breed is blamed for it.
These are also dogs that have to WANT to work. And I think most don't respond very well to too much pressure. I'm thinking very few people have the tolerance or patience to work with a Japanese dog.
Is this something that other Nihon Ken owners can agree with? <-- what I wrote out in the bold. This has just been my observation, but what does everyone else think?
I like to think the Japanese dogs are more "primal" in nature than other dogs. I try to stray away from describing nihonken as "primitive" because it also connotes a simple-minded, unrefined type of dog when that's grossly inaccurate. They react quicker to their instincts and are more prone to listen to their instincts over trained domestication.
I think because Americans/Westerners are more exposed to a variety of dogs and, within that variety, the breed of dogs have been bred further removed from their original purpose. As a result we, as a general populace, think of dogs as a subservient canine suboordinate more than we do a canine companion. It's a blow to our man/human ego to own a dog that we cannot easily/readily manipulate and bend by our force of will (try pretending to be mad at a Rottie vs Nihonken).
This classification of a relationship has run many of us out of our minds when trying to treat our nihon-ken as the former instead of the latter. And I have to say it's not just nihon-ken. Huskies also come to mind.
I don't know, with enough exercise Tikaani is a lot easier to train than Tetsu.
I have noticed that Tetsu is quick to learn and understand things, it just takes a lot of incentive to get him to want to do what you ask of him. I say training a shiba is more like what they say when it comes to training a cat. You don't command a cat to do what you want, they'll just give you a smug look and walk away; you have to ask them and make it worth their wild to fulfill this one request.
Beth, I wasn't saying Huskies are just as hard as nihonken, but can also be classified outside the ease of subservience/biddability that most of us westerners/Americans are used to with our "instant gratification/My-way-right-away-yesterday" like say, a Lab, Golden, Rottie, Pibble, etc.
Besides, in your example, you're utilizing exercise as a prequalifier to Tikaani's ease of trainability, whereas you wouldn't need exercise to "warm up" some of the other breeds to a command. They do it just because you said so and your sole approval is its just reward.
Incidentally among the breeds that consistently rank as "smartest" - Poodles, GSDs, Dobes, Aussies, etc., these are all relatively recent breeds and the purpose of breeding was of course to work alongside humans and be able to learn or aid in human activities.
Primitive (qualified as land-race or very old dog breeds before purposely breeding began to me) dogs such as pariahs and most spitze consistently also rank the lowest on these scales.. probably because it was never their intention to be "human friendly" in terms of being highly integratable into human society. Same reports also note that these dogs aren't necessarily "stupid" - just not willing to please or thrive on praise or acceptance. In other words, much like a cat.. they think they can do just as well without your bossy self. ;P
Same reports ALSO note many such "primitive" breeds can be seen to make better judgment calls too.
Was that the report from the "Whole Dog Journal"? I tried to read it online but it only gave abstracts. Do I need to get a subscription to read the full article?
Jessica, I think Ruby is the cutest pibble ever. I'm not usually a pibble fan,(too big) but I am a very big Ruby fan.
I only have my Tosca and, while I'd love another right now (no work, plenty of time) I know that can't be. First of all, Tosca is dog reactive. I adopted her knowing full well that she will not share me. Even if that weren't the case, within the next year or two, I expect to be moving to New York City for either grad school, or a possible job, or just saving my sanity and I know how hard it is to find a place that will take one dog let alone two. And once I find work, mine time becomes more limited. I will have a hard enough time getting this spoiled baby to adjust to a more solitary existence.
One needs to exercise a great deal of self-control with both nihon ken and potato chips.
I grew up in a multiple dog household, and many of my relatives also have multiple dogs. In the beginning, I was thinking I would probably end up with a kai and perhaps a shikoku. However, at this point I am looking at one nihon-ken, and then enjoying meet-ups with forum members where I can get my "fix" of the other ones. I think Chrystal was dead on in her assessment. I grew up in a larger family, and there was plenty of love to go around for all. Now it is only me, and it is perhaps best (for me) to have only one dog to spoil.
"These are also dogs that have to WANT to work. And I think most don't respond very well to too much pressure. I'm thinking very few people have the tolerance or patience to work with a Japanese dog."
I think he is probably right at the core of his statements- that we should examine whether we can be a better human to our current dog. Holding out for perfection may take forever, but at the same time I feel that I am not as resolved as I'd like to be with Sage yet for a third dog.
and from another entry of his: "In my opinion, there are many dogs these days that are over-socialized, and, for that matter, too many owners who are really worried that their dog isn’t getting enough playtime with other dogs – especially if they have a dog that tends towards aggression. In the grand scheme of things, what’s important for your dog is NOT that they have other dogs to play with. What IS important for your dog is that they have a chance to be a dog, to do what dogs do. And that is simply to have an outlet for their prey drive as way of handling the emotional energy (and stress) of their days in “human-world”. The more that you can show your dog what to do with their energy, and the closer that you get to resolving 100% of your stored up stress, the happier your dog will be. And your dog will be guaranteed to be more social when around other beings – dogs, cats, people, etc."
I don't like the last sentence, as I am highly skeptical of "guarantees" when it comes to dog behavior, but the rest of it I can dig. I imagine this may be different for dogs on various parts of the prey-drive spectrum, too= ie: fetch, tug, dig, etc. ie: a pekingese will have less prey drive to satisfy than a gsd.
Natural Dog Training makes a really good point.. the three main guys seem to 'upsell it' but they truly at the core of the dog experience, and they see major results because of it - I guess they have a right to brag.
Already, with shibas anyway, harnessing and invigorating their prey drive has done wonders for us. Our bond (them to me) is more open and less Master vs. Dog, but team cooperation. I think we are building new levels of trust, they can expel their energy with and to me and we work together now. I can't explain it as complicated as Kevin Behan, or as eloquently as Neil Sattin - but Natural Dog Training really does have a point.
I'm starting to really like Natural Dog Training as well, some of it I actually find a bit "new age" (not that that's bad), but, as Jen wrote, I think the core "values" of the method is really solid - if you have a dog with prey drive.
Where I have had a hard time with Natural Dog Training is when you have a dog with very little prey drive (like Luytiy)... but for Nihonken, the methods seem perfect, imo.
Maybe we should make a "Natural Dog Training" thread to discuss the method???
"And your dog will be guaranteed to be more social when around other beings – dogs, cats, people, etc."
It has nothing to do with being "social" but more to do with maybe a "tolerance" of co-existing with others.
I made that mistake with Lynx, because she WAS social as a PUPPY, but that's in the past. She's really not a social dog NOW. However, with her anxiety/energy exhausted...she is more likely to "tolerate" doggie introductions and co-exist amongst other dogs (humans & pack-cats - not strange ones). And the key factor here is to not be interested in them; to not have this "need" to cause trouble.
So a stress-relieved dog is indeed a happier dog, a more tolerant (and perhaps self-controlled) dog...NOT a social one. IMHO.
Comments
and researched the breeds history
..and I agree that all of the native Japanese Spitze are markedly different. A Shikoku is not a bigger Shiba, and an Akita is not a bigger Shikoku.. ~_~; I am seriously concerned for whoever thinks that a Kai is just like a bigger Shiba. More concerned for the dog, though.
Concerning the "American Akita"...yeah I have some NIPPO books with old photos...ALL the Akita were originally this type.
I indeed was VERY confused about the Akita and the 2 different "types" of Akita in the beginning. "The Great Japanese Dog" & "Akita"...are they different breeds or simply 2 variations of the same dog???
I'm still not quite clear what had happened. Something about after the importation of the Akita to America..."Japan" decided to go with a more "traditional Japanese" looking dog; with more "asian-like" features - or so I'm told. World War and it's impact on the creation/purpose of the Akita, blah, blah, blah. I haven't done any major studies, just read some material and have spoken with a few people. This is just what has come up.
Interesting stuff. In either case, reguardless of preference on Akitas, both are beautiful and unique for what they are.
*** Oh, I forgot to mention, that BOTH indeed are "products" and "creations" of Japan! That much, I feel I'm pretty clear on. When a certain need for a breed changes, then so does that breed. ***
As far as the history goes, the general understanding when you do a little digging is as you describe, from what we've (and by we I mean my fiance) found.
Reminds me how the German Shepherd Dog in the US isn't quite like the ones in Germany ( to me those hips always looked so painful to watch)
Apparently the common thought process on ALL Asian breeds (not just the Japanese) is that they are "Independent" & "aggressive".
I can understand if this is the kind of behavior people have been exposed to when dealing with SEVERAL Japanese breeds. However, most I think have had limited exposure or mostly have only dealt with already problematic dogs who happen to be a certain asian breed or mix (so automatically, the entire population must all be like this, right?). First impressions are very important. One or two bad experiences and then the whole breed is blamed for it.
These are also dogs that have to WANT to work. And I think most don't respond very well to too much pressure. I'm thinking very few people have the tolerance or patience to work with a Japanese dog.
Is this something that other Nihon Ken owners can agree with? <-- what I wrote out in the bold. This has just been my observation, but what does everyone else think?
I think because Americans/Westerners are more exposed to a variety of dogs and, within that variety, the breed of dogs have been bred further removed from their original purpose. As a result we, as a general populace, think of dogs as a subservient canine suboordinate more than we do a canine companion. It's a blow to our man/human ego to own a dog that we cannot easily/readily manipulate and bend by our force of will (try pretending to be mad at a Rottie vs Nihonken).
This classification of a relationship has run many of us out of our minds when trying to treat our nihon-ken as the former instead of the latter. And I have to say it's not just nihon-ken. Huskies also come to mind.
Jesse
I have noticed that Tetsu is quick to learn and understand things, it just takes a lot of incentive to get him to want to do what you ask of him. I say training a shiba is more like what they say when it comes to training a cat. You don't command a cat to do what you want, they'll just give you a smug look and walk away; you have to ask them and make it worth their wild to fulfill this one request.
I wasn't saying Huskies are just as hard as nihonken, but can also be classified outside the ease of subservience/biddability that most of us westerners/Americans are used to with our "instant gratification/My-way-right-away-yesterday" like say, a Lab, Golden, Rottie, Pibble, etc.
Besides, in your example, you're utilizing exercise as a prequalifier to Tikaani's ease of trainability, whereas you wouldn't need exercise to "warm up" some of the other breeds to a command. They do it just because you said so and your sole approval is its just reward.
Jesse
Primitive (qualified as land-race or very old dog breeds before purposely breeding began to me) dogs such as pariahs and most spitze consistently also rank the lowest on these scales.. probably because it was never their intention to be "human friendly" in terms of being highly integratable into human society. Same reports also note that these dogs aren't necessarily "stupid" - just not willing to please or thrive on praise or acceptance. In other words, much like a cat.. they think they can do just as well without your bossy self. ;P
Same reports ALSO note many such "primitive" breeds can be seen to make better judgment calls too.
Jesse
I only have my Tosca and, while I'd love another right now (no work, plenty of time) I know that can't be. First of all, Tosca is dog reactive. I adopted her knowing full well that she will not share me. Even if that weren't the case, within the next year or two, I expect to be moving to New York City for either grad school, or a possible job, or just saving my sanity and I know how hard it is to find a place that will take one dog let alone two. And once I find work, mine time becomes more limited. I will have a hard enough time getting this spoiled baby to adjust to a more solitary existence.
One needs to exercise a great deal of self-control with both nihon ken and potato chips.
Totally agree!
http://www.naturaldogblog.com/blog/2007/08/dog-training-should-i-get-a-second-dog-2/
I think he is probably right at the core of his statements- that we should examine whether we can be a better human to our current dog. Holding out for perfection may take forever, but at the same time I feel that I am not as resolved as I'd like to be with Sage yet for a third dog.
and from another entry of his:
"In my opinion, there are many dogs these days that are over-socialized, and, for that matter, too many owners who are really worried that their dog isn’t getting enough playtime with other dogs – especially if they have a dog that tends towards aggression. In the grand scheme of things, what’s important for your dog is NOT that they have other dogs to play with. What IS important for your dog is that they have a chance to be a dog, to do what dogs do. And that is simply to have an outlet for their prey drive as way of handling the emotional energy (and stress) of their days in “human-world”. The more that you can show your dog what to do with their energy, and the closer that you get to resolving 100% of your stored up stress, the happier your dog will be. And your dog will be guaranteed to be more social when around other beings – dogs, cats, people, etc."
I don't like the last sentence, as I am highly skeptical of "guarantees" when it comes to dog behavior, but the rest of it I can dig. I imagine this may be different for dogs on various parts of the prey-drive spectrum, too= ie: fetch, tug, dig, etc. ie: a pekingese will have less prey drive to satisfy than a gsd.
Already, with shibas anyway, harnessing and invigorating their prey drive has done wonders for us. Our bond (them to me) is more open and less Master vs. Dog, but team cooperation. I think we are building new levels of trust, they can expel their energy with and to me and we work together now. I can't explain it as complicated as Kevin Behan, or as eloquently as Neil Sattin - but Natural Dog Training really does have a point.
Where I have had a hard time with Natural Dog Training is when you have a dog with very little prey drive (like Luytiy)... but for Nihonken, the methods seem perfect, imo.
Maybe we should make a "Natural Dog Training" thread to discuss the method???
----
It has nothing to do with being "social" but more to do with maybe a "tolerance" of co-existing with others.
I made that mistake with Lynx, because she WAS social as a PUPPY, but that's in the past. She's really not a social dog NOW. However, with her anxiety/energy exhausted...she is more likely to "tolerate" doggie introductions and co-exist amongst other dogs (humans & pack-cats - not strange ones). And the key factor here is to not be interested in them; to not have this "need" to cause trouble.
So a stress-relieved dog is indeed a happier dog, a more tolerant (and perhaps self-controlled) dog...NOT a social one. IMHO.