My dog is a jerk
Kitsune just can't seem to tolerate other male dogs for too long in his house.
We thought we did everything right this time.. we had a very slow introduction situation. We only introduced the boys after
1. walking near each other without reaction
2. sniffing one another on a walk calmly
3. Kitsune showing interest in the form of multiple play bows at the gate where Jiro is in the kitchen
I introduced them out in the yard with minimal restraint and they did great.
I brought them in the house, Jiro on leash and Kitsune off. They did great.
I let them get to know one another in like 3-5 min intervals. They did great.
For 2 full days they ran around the house, playing. I even took a small hour long nap with them in the same room (un-restrained though). They did great.
Sure, Jiro is intact and seems to have a bit of a one-track mind and seems to be invasive, but Kitsune wasn't arguing the fact and tolerating all of it with tail wags.
Then, today.. All the food is up. Usually that's Kitsune's issue - food guarding. So thats not the issue. They had full bellies and were walked and satisfied.
They were on the couch, Jiro nappnig and Kitsune looking out the window. A dog walked by and Kitsu barked, Jiro perked up and stood like Kitsune, just like they did on Friday, sharing the couch.
Kitsune flipped his lid. He slammed into Jiro, knocked him on his back on the floor and let his mouth do the talking. Jiro isn't injured, he has scratches but it seems more his feelings are wounded. kitsune is in the kitchen now.
WTF? So now the couch all of a sudden is a thing to get upset about? Is this classified as barrier frustration/misdirected frustration/aggression/whatever you'd call it?
I'm so upset and Kitsune. I'm trying not to get emotional because he is just a dog and doing what he felt was what had to be done, but geez he's an asshole about it.
I think this was Jiro's first scuffle, he's really clingy now (though not bleeding or anything) and sleeping on my foot as I type this. Its been about an hour.
What can we do to help Kitsune? My goal this time around with a male foster was prevention... but I honestly didn't even see this one coming - they did this yesterday with NO issue..
Thats all it was today, too... but the dog walking by f'ed Kitsune all up I guess.
We're taking it back to square one, walkign them to see what the interest is and probably keeping them separate for as long as I think is best. Argh.
We thought we did everything right this time.. we had a very slow introduction situation. We only introduced the boys after
1. walking near each other without reaction
2. sniffing one another on a walk calmly
3. Kitsune showing interest in the form of multiple play bows at the gate where Jiro is in the kitchen
I introduced them out in the yard with minimal restraint and they did great.
I brought them in the house, Jiro on leash and Kitsune off. They did great.
I let them get to know one another in like 3-5 min intervals. They did great.
For 2 full days they ran around the house, playing. I even took a small hour long nap with them in the same room (un-restrained though). They did great.
Sure, Jiro is intact and seems to have a bit of a one-track mind and seems to be invasive, but Kitsune wasn't arguing the fact and tolerating all of it with tail wags.
Then, today.. All the food is up. Usually that's Kitsune's issue - food guarding. So thats not the issue. They had full bellies and were walked and satisfied.
They were on the couch, Jiro nappnig and Kitsune looking out the window. A dog walked by and Kitsu barked, Jiro perked up and stood like Kitsune, just like they did on Friday, sharing the couch.
Kitsune flipped his lid. He slammed into Jiro, knocked him on his back on the floor and let his mouth do the talking. Jiro isn't injured, he has scratches but it seems more his feelings are wounded. kitsune is in the kitchen now.
WTF? So now the couch all of a sudden is a thing to get upset about? Is this classified as barrier frustration/misdirected frustration/aggression/whatever you'd call it?
I'm so upset and Kitsune. I'm trying not to get emotional because he is just a dog and doing what he felt was what had to be done, but geez he's an asshole about it.
I think this was Jiro's first scuffle, he's really clingy now (though not bleeding or anything) and sleeping on my foot as I type this. Its been about an hour.
What can we do to help Kitsune? My goal this time around with a male foster was prevention... but I honestly didn't even see this one coming - they did this yesterday with NO issue..
Thats all it was today, too... but the dog walking by f'ed Kitsune all up I guess.
We're taking it back to square one, walkign them to see what the interest is and probably keeping them separate for as long as I think is best. Argh.
Comments
Don't know if this helps, but for the first week or so with Alona, it was really hell with her and Beebe. Alona tried to gaurd me from Beebe and Beebe refused to share with her. Alona is really stranger anything reactive, Beebe isn't nearly as bad anymore, but Alona would rush to the fence to bark at walkers/dogs. Beebe would get all riled up at that point and then there would be a dog pile at the corner of the fence with Beebe body slamming Alona trying to get to whatever was outside the fence. The proximity of the other dog in "her space bubble" totally set Alona off and then I had some small fights.
I really think it was mostly about the old dogs adapting to the new dog, and Alona learning to be okay with a strange girl next to her. After a couple incidences, she understood that sharing was required of her after some serious discussions and rushing the fence wasn't acceptable. Also whenever people began walking up to the fence, I treated/praised both girls for comming away from the fence and did distracting exercises with them with food and games. It wasn't so much an issue after the initial 7-8 days. They were all pretty good with not getting hot about the fence after that.
Maybe try re-training on your recalls so you can call them off the couch as you see a walker/dog approaching and doing some focus training with both boys together? I really had to impress the idea in both girls heads that snarking=timeouts/not fun.
I'm guessing Kistune is being a very, very good boy tolerating Jiro but his bucket is close to full and the excitement of the dog coming by outside and Jiro popping up to say "Can I see, too?" just tipped him over. Even though they can be great together, continue to give them time apart by crating the new guy and letting Kitsu relax fully. Jiro's a bit annoying and Kitsu's being good for you but he;s telling you he's really THIS close to his edge.
Kitsu's not a jerk, this is not unusual.
In answer ....Yes, but probably not really about the couch in of itself. Things flex in an ebb and flow with dogs so nothing is certain even after introductions are made. All it takes is a look you did not see between and among dogs combined with a high arousal event and you will have a fight.
I would not allow them on the couch any longer in order to get to the window for either of them. Barrier frustration does not usually just go away, even if you have the dogs longer. It is a reactive behavior that gets heaped on the next nearest object as the dog becomes out of control.
Yes Kitsune may have taken all the behavior heaped on him in recent days but there is a threshold limit and that came spilling out compounded as the other dog passed the window and "J" was in his space.
Some steps to teach big "j" some calming and also some reinforcement of Kitsune to get his threshold to remain lower. Teaching go to mat or bed and using luring for both may be an option if you know trouble is coming. Though for that to work you have to get to things before your boy gets into an above threshold state. Maybe you can teach Kitsune to come to get you to let you know there is trouble coming rather than hanging at the window. Maybe teach some tricks to get the focus redirected.
Agrees with Lindsay....Time outs are in order. The dogs must realize they have to get along.
Snf
Personally, I think it's time to call a spade a spade. Your male is obviously intolerant of other males being in his house - whether that is due to a social deficit, territorial behavior, or fear it is obvious you have tried REALLY hard to make it work but still continue to have these issues. Maybe it's time to make a "we cannot foster male dogs" rule?
On the behavioral tip, to me, it sounds like what Chrystal said: "redirected aggression" or maybe "redirected frustration".
J is on the couch sleeping, gets spooked by K when he starts barking. J jumps up to see what is going on, K gets startled by J and reacts by attacking. There are 3 levels of "stressors" in that situation (4 if you could J is new to the group): 1. J is spooked from the abrupt barking, 2. K is agitated due to dogs outside the window. 3. K is spooked by J's sudden appearance next to him.
This happens here too...
- Kona will just straight-up attack Luytiy when Luytiy is set off and extremely agitated. We have to keep them separated or in a very large space together.
- Once Kona was sleeping and Lani brushed his head while walking by, he was startled and attacked Lani on the spot.
- Ahi will attack any dog that is on leash with her if another dog approaches us in an aggressive manner off-lead.
- When giving all of our dogs treats, if you go to give Maui one and another dog moves in to steal is, Maui will bite your hand - hard.
Your dogs are normal, IMHO. This is why I refer to it as "management" all the time. At our house, with our dogs, 99% of the time there are no issues but 1% of the time we have an issue and we learn something new each time and issue happens. Just be glad the issue happened w/o injury and try to figure out what caused it (like you are doing) so you can figure out what needs to be managed. You have to preempt issues and manage things in a away that allows the dogs to success and not fail and when you start mixing dogs (sexes, breeds, ages, different backgrounds) this can be come incredibly difficult, frustrating, and sometimes depressing.
I agree with Patrice & Lindsay on timeouts. Negative Punishment (like a timeout) is a GREAT way to teach a passionate dog like Kitsune a little impulse control. We use it here, and it works very well. Sends a clear message: "Blue, you wanna act like an ass, you don't get to play".
*Remember the longest you should timeout a dog is 1 minute, (generally) after 1 minute they have no idea why you put them in a timeout to begin with (don't worry, we have forgotten Masha in the bathroom for like 30 minutes - it happens). In a fast moving situation (like play) 10 seconds can even be enough. Also, don't use their crate for timeouts - use the bathroom or something. If you put them in timeout and they go nuts - good, that means it's working, don't let them out! Let them out when they calm, if the freak out in timeout for a full minute, knock on the door (or make a noise) and when they get silent quickly open the door and let them out (teaches them that a silent timeout = a shorter timeout).
Don't give up! Don't think for a second what you are doing is supposed to be easy!
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Kitsune does have a habit of going at Tsuki, but in a more hectic play - non attack - style on leash, especially when they see a cat, it runs, they both get worked up and start 'boxing'.
He's never had these issues with females that stay here, though I only have two (not including Tsuki) to go by.
They did well on their walk together, Kitsu let Jiro sniff him up and down without any issue then we kept walking. Now inside I'm separating them again, maybe in a few days give them small intervals to play.
Jiro is really a good boy, though. He's invasive, and I can understand Kitsune's frustration with his constant attention on him (during play, its like Tsuki doesn't even exist). Every dog Jiro's met he's tolerated, on leash and not - but then so does Kitsune as long as the boys don't come back here. Sometimes, I wish they could talk.
I'm goign to work on getting Kitsu to seek us out when he's upset/fearful/frustrated. He sort of already does, when he guards and barks, we call him over, check it out, then praise him for stopping. Perhaps this and very short play sessions with Jiro will be our prevention.
Fortunately, not many shibas are around my area of the globe. Unfortunately, our local shelter seems to get in only males (last three in the last 9 months were males). Then its rock and hard place.. especially when no other rescues will take them in once they are urgent. NYCSR has too many in their own backyard (as they put it). Its the urgency, and the fact that I have shibas, know shibas, and no one else considers these Scranton shelter shibas priority. Its hard to say no.
But since he's my dog, it should be what is best for Kitsune, so I guess we have some thinking to do.