What to do when people insist on touching your dog?

edited August 2009 in Behavior & Training
Today my husband and I went to the doggy park with our shiba, Kiba. We were in the small dog section playing fetch with the many tennis balls lying around. An elderly was there, also playing fetch with their dog, but they were playing with a soft frisbee that they had brought from home. They threw it in the direction of Kiba, so naturally Kiba picked it up and trotted off with it, refusing to give it back. The man chased after Kiba and Kiba continued to run away from him. We called Kiba over, picked him up, and managed to get the frisbee out of his mouth. The man then proceeded to thank us then stuck his hand in front of Kiba's face to pet him. Kiba began to growl as the man's hand came closer and proceeded to snap at him. I asked the man to not pet Kiba because Kiba is very particular about who touches him. (This is not a big problem because when Kiba is on the ground, he simply backs away or walks around people he does not wish to be touched by with no aggression) The man told me he knew what he was doing and once more put his hand in Kiba's face, which Kiba responded to by growling even more and exposing his teeth. I told the man to stop again and blocked his hand with mine so that Kiba would not bite him. The man proceeded to scold me and the same thing happened, he put his hand in Kiba's face and I blocked his hand with mine. He became so upset with me that he left the dog park.

Kiba was also picked up once in the dog park by a man we did not know without our permission and snapped at that man's face because he did not like it at all.


It is never okay for a dog to bite a person but are these people just not using common sense, or does Kiba have a problem that we need to fix? I tried to be as unbiased as possible while trying to explain today's situation, I apologize if it is very long.
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Comments

  • edited November -1
    Your dog park allows toys? Wow...sounds like a bad idea right there altogether imo.
  • edited November -1
    Assuming you didn't invite these people to pick your dog up, and it's obvious Kiba was doing his best to give signals he didn't want that sort of attention, no, I don't really see a problem with what your dog was doing. When you tell him to knock it off he should, like at a vet office for a medical exam where a stranger will have to handle him, but this was something that neither of you wanted, so I would say that was a perfectly normal response. The people were just being dumb asses-who goes to a park and picks up a strange dog that is giving off "don't bother me" vibes in the first place?

    Maybe dog parks are not the safest place for Kiba to be, given that it is putting him and you at risk.
  • edited November -1
    I don't see anything wrong with what you said or Kiba's reaction. I don't touch people's dogs that I do not know. Nor am I thrilled when people run up to Koda in his face about how cute he is. Tonight some guy, I know him by the way a neighbor jerk, picked Koda up and just held him off the ground dangling. Koda went limp and let him, but WTF who does that? I told him not to and he got a little pissy. I know him so I told him to stop, but it's their problem not yours. It seems like people always get pissy at dog parks. Forget him!!! No sweat off your back, and no skin off his hand from a dog bite. You did what you had to do.

    One thing I've noticed with the Shibas down at my dog park is that they are so cute and pretty that everyone wants to touch them and none of the Shibas like it. When they respond with a growl or a correction, people peg them as being one of "those bad Shibas" always causing problems. If that guy really knew what he was doing, then he would have backed off.
  • edited November -1
    I agree that you are handling the situation with the people appropriately. Although I would suggest some work with a behaviorist to tone down the snapping.

    If your dog were a rottweiler and snarling and baring his teeth at humans, I am sure people would be telling you this situation is more serious. And you probably wouldn't be taking to off leash parks.

    If you are taking him to a dog park people ARE going to try to pet him. I am not saying any dog should be pet without the owners consent. But let's face it a)people are stupid and b)they tend to do what they want anyway. So if you are going to put Kiba as well as yourself in such a vulnerable position (consider that if he snaps at the wrong person there may be legal ramifications) as a dog park you may want to equip him with a tad more confidence around people.
  • edited November -1
    Yeah, people at dog parks are pretty stupid and it's amazing how many 'dog people' can't/don't read the doggy body language. Great job at defending your pups, who cares if that guy is mad at you, Kiba doesn't need that stress. Maybe net time if someone wants to pet him, tell them that they have to sign a lawsuit waiver first, that'll probably scare one or two of them.

    Shibas are too cute for their own good, and many people can't resist the opportunity to touch/pick up one. That is kind of one of the reason why I take my guys to the dog park, but something I took in stride. Watching any dog running around there, especially the beautiful and cute ones, you'll see that people will try hard to touch them. It is something that can't fully be avoided, especially if he runs to the other side of the park.

    It's a great thing that your pups likes to play fetch, you can use that to your advantage. Tetsu will allow a pet or two, but there are those people (especially stupid kids ranging n the ages of 13-20) who will follow him around if he runs from their hand, which can put him on edge and bring down his comfort with strangers. With these people, I tell them he isn't comfortable with them and that they should instead play fetch with him (works better with kids than adults). This allowed the stranger to interact with Tetsu (reducing their desire to pet him without having to touch him), gave Tetsu a good experience with a stranger and made him comfortable enough with that person that he did allow a few pets and even licked their hand sometimes.

    I agree with Jessica in that you should find help in working with the snapping. Even though it's a totally natural response to a stressor, it won't fly if he makes contact with the wrong person.

    In environments you can't control, do whatever you can to avoid putting him in that situation and then work with him where you are comfortable to make positive experiences in similar situations. Hold him and have people give him treats without petting, start with friends then slowly work to strangers. Work to light touching before some pettng, and try to teach everyone coming up to you how to properly greet a dog. This entails slowly placing hand, palm up, with in range of the dogs nose for them to sniff. Then if the dog is calm, have the person touch the cheeks and chest. Reaching over to pet the back of the head can be a scary thing for some dogs, so try to avoid going straight to the head. If the dog is comfortable with chest rubbing, then you can work the hand to the back, but still avoiding leaning over the head.
  • edited November -1
    Most dog parks allow toys. Actually, all that I've been to (and helped build) allow toys. And treats.

    I agree that in this situation, being your dog's advocate is essential, because even "dog people" are ridiculously clueless like above mentioned.

    The snapping is worrisome only because law suits and dog quarantines are an omnipresent danger.

    In situations like this, at the park, I usually bring a small baggy of hot dogs or something unique to this situation, and if people want to pet 'the fox' I ask them to almost sit on the ground and hold the hot dog out without looking at him, he'll sniff, sometimes takes it and thats their reward. Kiba is young enough that perhaps something small and non threatening like this would help over time... for my male the damage was done before I adopted him. He's massively social phobic and hard to handle.
    If someone does'nt want to take the time to "help him" with hot dogs, then you don't come near my dog!
  • edited November -1
    Don't worry Rachelle,
    You acted way more appropriately than I ever would. You know your dog, you saw the signs, you picked up on your dog's discomfort, who in turn sensed your discomfort, and you did your best to civilly prevent a bad situation from turning worse (your dog biting the old man).


    Jesse
  • edited November -1
    RE: Jen's suggestion on hot dogs: great idea, though I wouldn't recommend it at/in the dog park.
  • edited November -1
    Well when people are bothering Akira I tell them to be careful because he bites, it usually keep people away from him. However, I do prefer a dog that can be handled by anyone even if they're a little rough/odd/rude so Jen's suggestions are right on point!
  • edited November -1
    Irene, good point! I haven't been to the dog park in almost a year. We do walk many parks, though. And that is where the admirers are. :)
  • edited November -1
    Thanks for all your help, I do think that Kiba has a bit of a temper when it comes to people bothering him. The reason I believe he reacted so aggressively to the elderly man was because when the man was chasing him to get the frisbee back, he was yelling at Kiba and waving his arms. When we caught kiba we took away the frisbee that he did not want to let go of, and then the man stuck his hand in kiba's face. :sigh: we need to work on kiba's temper tantrums ;[ but its great to have everyone's input thank you,

    Rachelle
  • edited November -1
    Tetsu is the same way when it comes to retrieving valuable items from him. Instead of chasing him around, try making one of the tennis balls or something else look more valuable and fun. That way he is not learning that you taking something away from him is bad
  • edited November -1
    This dog park dude sounds like he has a death wish (or at least a finger-removal wish). I have occasionally patted a dog without asking first (when it ran up to me, ears down, tail wagging etc) but even then it was a reflexive impulse which I regretted afterward, just out of consideration for the owner. Anyone that would stick their hand out to a growling dog, especially after being told not to repeatedly, seems like an idiot of legendary proportions. I realize that many people assume dogs, especially cute small ones like Shibas will be friendly, but do that many people persist in handling your dogs, even after being told that its not OK?
  • edited November -1
    Wow, I cannot believe that man said that to you ... :(
    Unless a dog came up to me asking for a petting/attention, I don't touch other people's dogs at the dog park.

    Then again, I haven't been to the dog park since last summer. It really isn't my cup of tea anymore, and I don't want to risk my dog escaping. I'm more worried about my dog escaping than my dog fighting with other dogs -- Toby is highly social. I just think there is too many idiots around who can't read signs or can't respect dog's boundaries.
  • edited August 2009
    People are idiots, and from what I've seen, most, not all, most people there seem to be lazy and don't walk their dogs so to the run they go and read a paper, talk on the phone, chat with people w/o paying attention to their dog..

    we're lucky enough to have found Beth/Tom and Joe/Dawn, otherwise Shao New wouldn't be at the dog park either. I don't like most of the random dogs/dog owners at dog parks. Usually in my head the dog park is an outlet for her to properly run, but not at the expense of getting hurt or catching something from a dog who isn't regularly taken to the vet, that or escaping b/c people fail to adhere to the gate opening signs/rules. At least I know Tetsu Katsu and Tikaani are well taken care of (their owners are OK too) ;-P
  • edited November -1
    Rachelle, ROFL I just noticed the cone pic.

    Koda and I live like a block and a half from the dog park, so I frequent it when he stays home during the day by himself. I also am convinced when he gets older I can have him off leash. We'll see. But we work on his re-call there where he has a lot of distractions and more fun options than coming to me. My behaviorist/trainer also joins me sometimes with his dogs. He's great to hang out with because we analyze dog behavior and their humans as well. It's like me going to a class for free. He's pretty awesome!

    I only touch other people's dogs that I know, and only when they run up to me asking for some luvin'. I make sure that I have already established that this is ok. People touch Koda all the time. They are always wanting to feel his tiger stripes that show up in the sun or look at them more closely, or pet him cause well he's pretty darn adorable. One man tried to yell NO at Koda and pull on his harness. He was about 6'5" and learned really quickly that my 5" butt wouldn't allow that type of behavior from him. To me, it's the people who ruin the dog park not the dogs. We should post "Human Rules of Ettiquete".
  • edited November -1
    Trying to imagine Tara with a 5-inch butt is quite a thought-provoking image...:)

    Jesse
  • edited November -1
    oops. LMAO Jesse it would be you who caught that! I meant 5 foot butt, but not as in my buttox or my rear, my short little *ss.
  • edited August 2009
    I expect my dogs to behave but I don't believe they should have to tolerant this kind of human behavior. It's very RUDE!

    I've had little kids run up to Lynx and pet her on the butt or back. And I have to react very quickly, "Sorry sweetie, she's working right now, please don't pet her." I've had many other people just come up and hug her or try to play...but Lynx doesn't like these things unless she herself innitates (sp?) contact. So I tell people, "She's not friendly" or "She bites" or simply "DON'T TOUCH MY DOG!" and walk off...

    Shoushuu has had people run up to him and hug his face. I just try to keep a "look out" for these things now and avoid them by looking "busy". Or tell them, "please don't pet my dogs, they're playing." I don't mind if my dogs innitate the contact..."If they come up to you, you can pet them...otherwise please don't."

    Most people "get it" but there's also a lot that don't. If you have to, leave the area.

    It becomes a "people management" ordeal. Really, use whatever means to get this message across. You MUST protect your dog! I also try to body block people sometimes. It really just depends on the situation in hand. You can also try to "condition" your dog to certain commons in everyday life. To make your dog comfortable (less stressed/not stressed) while you're trying to deal with the "scary human".

    I agree though...if the dog park you are going to is gonna have a lot of people who like to handle other people's dogs...you shouldn't set yourself or dog up for failures. Instead, try and go when nobody is there. Or look for another place that has better "doggie politics" with understanding people who know how to listen. Or maybe one with no people at all.

    I, myself, will go to the dog park when no other human or dog is around. And sometimes I'll go when there are 1 or 2 people and dogs. Otherwise, I use parks with enclosed areas and such: softball field, tennis court, racquetball court, basketball court, etc...be creative! Make sure there are no signs up disallowing dogs. And should you decide to go this route...please be sure to potty your dog before entering!



    Some people these days though...they deserve to get bit! Of course, they're humans...so they think like humans and not like dogs. Our dogs shouldn't have to suffer this but atlas, we humans need to deal with it. I'm sorry this guy was stupid and didn't listen! Humans can be very stubborn ya know -sighs-.
  • edited November -1
    The only possible problem I see is that by you stepping in and defending him it can send signals to the dog to make him even more reactive and agressive toward strangers. My akita hates to be handled by strangers and is more ready to jump to my defense than most shibas. If I had to physically block someone from touching her it wouldn't happen a second time. The next time they'd lose their hand because she'd take my reaction as reinforcement that the person needed stopped. It would be better to set the dog back down, step out of reach, or just walk off so that it isn't easy for the person to reach out and touch them instead of getting physical with the other person. While people shouldn't insist on touching your dog it would be a good idea to work with him a little so he is less likely to bite and doesn't start picking up worse behaviors from your reactions. One of our basic exercises in dog classes is to have strangers walk up to us and talk to us without doing anything that upsets the dog so they get used to such situations being neutral or positive and don't think every stranger will try to get in their space or their handlers space. If possible it's good to work up to a stranger being able to pet your dog with permission even if the dog doesn't really enjoy it. While dogs should be able to have their own space and decide if they want touched if your dog bites someone without good provocation they may get in trouble. Here they would get kicked out of the dog park for even a small bite and may get kicked out for repeatedly snapping at people without making contact. If a bite was reported more than once the dog could be deemed dangerous and would have to follow certain rules to keep it away from people. These days it's very bad to have your dog reported for a bite and a good idea to do as much training and socializing as possible to prevent it from happening even if it's not your dog's fault.
  • edited November -1
    I look at it this way...
    Replace the word "dog" with "child" and you would clearly see that this is unacceptable behavior by the stranger under any circumstance. And to most of us, our dogs are our children. Picking up or even touching someone else's dog when a.) the dog clearly isn't yours or b.) the dog is clearly uncomfortable with it, should be logical and sound reasoning for any adult human in a dog park to not press the matter.

    Jesse
  • edited November -1
    Very good point Jesse, these people would be in a shitload of trouble if they insisted on touching your children like that!
  • edited November -1
    Thats one tough problem about the dog park, my dog is okay with people petting and touching her but she has a real problem with food. I hate when people try to give my dog treats because she reacts like this () if other dogs gather around her.
  • edited November -1
    The problem is, that at the dog park I frequent there are some people with very little common sense. Kiba doesn't snap at people unless there is provocation. This man, chased him around the park trying to take his frisbee back shouting, trying to grab him, and waving his arms. As his owners, we caught him and gave back the frisbee, then the man tried to pet Kiba. Though, there may be nothing wrong with that, I think Kiba viewed this man as a threat. I told the man to please stop or else my dog will bite him. It's true as Jesse put it, no one would touch your child if you told them not to, dogs are not just possessions we have, it's downright violating for someone to continue to touch your puppy when you ask them not to. Shawna, I agree with your statement that Kiba's aggression may have increased because I was defending him. Kiba made the angry face, because he did not want to be touched by this particular stranger and when this stranger continued to try and touch him, it was his way of screaming "get away from me!" We are, however trying to work on his temper, but it is difficult to improve on it, because we are rarley faced with a situation where he gets that angry. Kiba just seems to love the people he allows to pet him (even some very rare strangers) and will avoid people he does not care for... maybe doggies just like people with "good vibes" =]
  • edited November -1
    How about in the future mentioning to anyone that wants to touch your pups against his or your will, that you state, "I will only allow you to touch him if you first sign a legal waiver that if indeed he does bite you that you waive the right to sue or take any action against me or my dog." Throwing some legal BS can sometimes help in making a person think twice about doing something
  • edited November -1
    No offense, but I think the burden in this case is on the owner. Its up to you to make sure your dog is squared away and 100% in public places...you can control him...not the other person. Not knowing you or your dog, but reading this story I would say your dog either wasn't properly socialized or is having dominance issues.

    When we got Musashi, our Akita, I made sure he met EVERYONE from when he was 2 months old. He was carried to the parks until he had his shots, he met family, strangers, randoms people, old people...everyone. When he had his shots and could meet other dogs, I put him immediately on his side and let other dogs approach him and check him out. Everytime. I STILL do it once in a while at 7 months and over 60 pounds. I have taken him to my schools here in Japan multiple times. I made sure he didn't react to running screaming kids as well as fleeing children. I made sure he was put in a 100% submissive pose when he first met them. He goes to super crowded street markets, festivals with strange music, clothing, and masks. He even sleeps through hour long firework shows.

    Now Sasuke, our Shiba...on the other hand is a strange bird. I have no one to blame but myself. I was at a different place in my life when I got him 2 yeas ago. He spent 8 months living in an apartment confined to the bathroom/hall/entrance. As a result, hes great with people...ANY people. When he got lost once, he was seen playing with people in the parking lot where he escaped in and wanting to walk with them. He loves anyone. Dogs on the other hand, not so friendly with when on leash or not reigned in. In a dog park...hes fine...but on a leash he will lunge and make terrible noises if he senses another dog trying to be dominant....even mildly. He has also become moreso in this way and very territorial since I had him fixed. I won't do that to a dog again unless its 100% necessary.

    However, both of these two are excellent watchdogs. If a person is approaching inappropriately, strangely, or theres strange sounds around...they will sound warnings, nothing serious...sounds like a "who goes there?!" kind of sound. Its a short deep "woof" and if necessary will be escalated by a couple more. Sasuke will go further with an actual challenge type pose followed by final warning barks. He won't pursue though and has never showed signs of unnecessary aggression.

    I do agree with one point here. Picking up. Don't pick up others dogs without permission or in a real rescue situation. When Mu was about 3 month...our neighbor...drunk (common in Japan)...lifted him straight up by his arms. I ripped that ass a new one for doing that. Theres so many reasons not to pick up another persons dog, just don't do it unless necessary or permitted.

    The point is, be in charge, make sure you stay in charge, your dog will take queues from you on how you feel about these people. If you are worried about someone touching your dog, the dog will pick up on your worry and protect you from the threat...ESPECIALLY if you are not the boss. These are not children, nor are they dumb beasts....they are in between. If you can tune into the primal instinct man has domesticated into them while still fullfilling yourself...you and your dog will be happy.
  • edited September 2009
    sniperx,

    We have socialized Kiba from the moment we got him, we take him everywhere with us. He meets new people everyday, this is not a socialization issue. The difference I would say between Kiba and your Akita Musashi is just different temperament e.g. personality. While your dogs may love other people, Kiba for the most part just tolerates them. He is very loyal to his family, and merely friendly or apathetic to those he does not know. He has never reacted this way towards anyone else except for this man and the other man who tried to pick him up. Though, for the man who picked him up he squirmed more and protested loudly rather than growl.

    You are right to say that dogs are not children, but they are not just items, how pissed do you see people get if they see a stranger touching their nice car. How much more angry does an owner get when a stranger touches their dog?
  • edited November -1
    OK,
    I have to re-clarify this and put this in proper context. The dog park has these as the following rules:
    - No personal treats in the park
    - No personal toys in the park

    In the situation Rachelle described above, the old man was partly at fault by bringing a personal toy frisbee from home. There's a reason why there are tennis balls and miscellaneous toys in the dog park as part of the public domain. It decreases the chance of a dog resource guarding his/her personal toy (high value reward). The elderly person risked triggering other dog's resource guarding and possibly his own dog's reactiveness by bringing a personal toy from home.

    Rachelle's dog was...well, being a dog (a 6-month old puppy at that). And a dog park is a place where one expects to bring a dog so a dog can be themselves around other dogs. It's not a place where a dog owner goes with the expectation that other adults are going to man-handle, reward, or correct your dog.

    "No offense, but I think the burden in this case is on the owner. Its up to you to make sure your dog is squared away and 100% in public places...you can control him...not the other person. Not knowing you or your dog, but reading this story I would say your dog either wasn't properly socialized or is having dominance issues."

    So let me switch this around on you. What would you do if you brought your dog to a dog park, and a stranger tried to pet your dog (Musashi or Sasuke), your dog didn't like it and did the short deep woof and a few more, and the stranger quickly alpha-rolled your dog and put the dog on its side to submit, essentially forcing your dog to surrender to their will? It's a more extreme scenario of the same situation that Rachelle described above. A strange human forcing their will/intent on you and your dog, who reacted to the stimulation negatively.

    I'm by no means excusing Rachelle's dog for his reactive behavior (I personally think he's a 6-month old puppy with a hair-trigger on resource guarding and reactivity and has wonderful and attentive owners that are perceptive enough to address this early). But if you take everything in context, I also blame the man who broke the rules of the park, and then further broke dog-owner courtesy rules by ignoring the dog owner's personal warning to not try and pet their dog at a time where the dog was in a reactive state. For example, not every dog owner knows that attempting to pet a dog on the top of the head is an overtly aggressive move in dog behavior (think of dogs that put their head above each other in preparation to mount). Some dogs are less inclined for absolute human obedience as an inherent breed trait (i.e. Shiba) and they would not appreciate said action ("The Other End of the Leash"). I would know a thing or two about this petting gesture, my own dog gets annoyed and barely tolerates it when I pet him on his head. Consequently, he quickly shies away from any stranger that tries to do the same action. With a lot of time and training, I'm sure I can lessen this reaction to this gesture (maybe 85% comfortable), but I doubt I'll be able to rid him of it such that he'll be comfortable with it 100%.

    I'm reminded of Dr. Patricia McConnell's words regarding dog's and their demeanor towards some humans. It's something to the effect of the following.

    There are just some humans that dogs will not like. I can't blame them. I, myself, don't like/love every person I meet. Why should I demand it of my dog?

    Jesse
  • edited November -1
    But you said in your initial post, "He doesn't like to be touched." You need to look into why that is why it continues to be that way. Is it you projecting it creating a circle that just continues building or is he fearful, what is it.


    I actually encourage people to touch my dogs, especially the ones who are affraid. Theres a problem here with big=bad...naturally my Akita falls victim to this. I want everyone to see hes not bad and its the owner that causes problems rather than the dog.

    Becareful, loyalty and dominance can look very similar. Ask this. Why is my dog prtecting me or showing extreme loyalty and inappropriate times.....like the relative safety of the dog park or your living room easy chair. My boys are loyal, but their also fully aware of who is in charge. When my Shiba slipped out of this condition (went on vacation for 3 weeks and sitters were unsuited to be bosses)...he was radically different and I saw what a dominant dog is REALLY like.

    It sounds like you've become complacent to his condition and taken on the typical position of..."Thats just the way he is."

    When I chose to get our male Akita I took it on as a personal challenge. I had a male Shiba who had displayed dominant behavior in the past and I knew from day 1 what had to be done to get the dog I wanted. I didn't tolerate ANY backtalk or confrontations and made sure EVERYONE knew that I was the boss...no ifs ands or buts. This didn't involve any abuse or anything...just language and things dogs understand. As a result I have 2 males living in the same house with ZERO fights or bouts for the top tier....because they know I already have it. However, it doesn't stop, they'll give you little challenge...and if they win...the challenge gets upped...and it will continue till someone gets hurt.

    Dogs are not made by Ron Popeil...you can't set it and forget it.
  • edited November -1
    Hello. This is Rachelle's husband posting with her account.
    SniperX: First of all, she never claimed that "he doesn't like to be touched". She told the man that Kiba is particular about who touches him. We both try to encourage people to pet him and play with him all the time, just like you do with your dogs. I don't want you to be under the impression that we don't socialize him. We both agree that Kiba has a few issues that we need to work on. However, in this particular situation, I believe Kiba was not really at fault (although I don't condone aggression towards other humans). As far as my wife's reaction to the situation, she handled it much better than I could have. I think you are just making a bigger deal out of this than it really was. It's simple. Just like Jesse said, these dogs are our babies. The dude shouldnt have touched him when Rachelle asked. That's it.
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