"Fixing" him
I've never felt so conflicted about neutering a dog before.
I was once an avid member of the SPAY AND NEUTER ALL campaign... now I'm seeing it a bit differently.
Most people in shelter work or rescue, understandably, see it in the way I used to. Unwanteds and pet overpopulation is something seen every day, its something we try to justify and find answers for. Its an epidemic that causes so many needless deaths each HOUR in shelters across the US. I understand that side of the argument, really I do.
And if someone were to ask me, I would still say I suggest neutering under most circumstances. Most people should not have intact animals.
However... this foster boy of mine. Nothing is broken, nothing needs to be fixed. He is intact in every sense of the word! Temperamentally, he is a gem. He is easily the most uncomplicated dog I've lived with.. what you see is what you get for 2.5 weeks, no hidden issues so far. NONE! Its unbelievable.
If I were in the position to say without a doubt that I was keeping him, I would keep him intact. No, he will never be bred. No, he will never be loose or off leash for that reason. Yes, it will take management and some behavioral work (marking, humping). I understand there will probably be frustrations if we live near a female in season (which, I do'nt think we do, though I do'nt know them all). But in all of this, is still doesn't justify altering him.
The one reason - the only reason - is that he is my foster, a rescue. For this reason he must be neutered. I'm actually upset by it, but of course I will be leaving him at the vet's tomorrow morning to do what cannot be undone.
Damn it. I can't believe I'm this conflicted! Is it really justifiable to permanently alter a dog because the general public is irresponsible?
I was once an avid member of the SPAY AND NEUTER ALL campaign... now I'm seeing it a bit differently.
Most people in shelter work or rescue, understandably, see it in the way I used to. Unwanteds and pet overpopulation is something seen every day, its something we try to justify and find answers for. Its an epidemic that causes so many needless deaths each HOUR in shelters across the US. I understand that side of the argument, really I do.
And if someone were to ask me, I would still say I suggest neutering under most circumstances. Most people should not have intact animals.
However... this foster boy of mine. Nothing is broken, nothing needs to be fixed. He is intact in every sense of the word! Temperamentally, he is a gem. He is easily the most uncomplicated dog I've lived with.. what you see is what you get for 2.5 weeks, no hidden issues so far. NONE! Its unbelievable.
If I were in the position to say without a doubt that I was keeping him, I would keep him intact. No, he will never be bred. No, he will never be loose or off leash for that reason. Yes, it will take management and some behavioral work (marking, humping). I understand there will probably be frustrations if we live near a female in season (which, I do'nt think we do, though I do'nt know them all). But in all of this, is still doesn't justify altering him.
The one reason - the only reason - is that he is my foster, a rescue. For this reason he must be neutered. I'm actually upset by it, but of course I will be leaving him at the vet's tomorrow morning to do what cannot be undone.
Damn it. I can't believe I'm this conflicted! Is it really justifiable to permanently alter a dog because the general public is irresponsible?
Comments
Jesse
Jesse, I think vasectomies can be reversed, and I'd never want to put him in that position! I did consider it though. If he were my dog.
I know how hard it must be for someone like you Jen, who has done so much research on natural dog training and raising to have a dog speutered. I think if he was your dog you could have the option, but since he will be going to a home, you are doing the right thing by him. You always do right by your dogs, even if in your mind it's not right
I curious what has changed for you to consider keeping a dog intact? (tho I know you are NOT thinking that for this specific dog)
Also, you listed some "bad stuff" with having an intact male, but you didn't really explain why you would consider keeping him intact. What benefits are there?
Just curious, not drilling you or anything.
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I have met quite a few unaltered pups that were wonderful dogs, and I have met some that were allowed to run rampant and boink all the girls because he's 'just being a dog'. If people were more responsible, if they didn't allow it to get so bad that we need shelters for every town to drop off the 'unwanted', than leaving a dog unaltered would be acceptable for the general public. But, like walking a dog off leash, we as a general public have for the most part lost the trust that one can keep an intact dog safely and properly.
Unfortunately, many things in life have to be altered because of stupid people. For instance, coffee cups that have to be labeled, "Caution - Hot!". (DUH!) All because somebody sued a company because the coffee was too hot. Deodorants often have instructions that list - "Remove Cap to Apply" - think about A)the person that had to call customer service about the problem with the product and b)the person who had to answer the call.
I used to have a list of (what I consider) stupid instructions - these are items that I've always thought were self-explanatory. We have raised a generation of people without a lot of common sense. This is why we have to speuter and teach others to do the same.
-My first dog that I remember was a scruffy terrier mix male named Pepsi who had all his parts and would nip at me and mount anything that moved. I have a bit of a dislike of little curly haired white dogs because of this monstrous terrier.
(my parents did not train or exercise this dog)
-My second dog was a beagle/hound male that was intact and ran away one day, presumably to follow the scent of a female in heat. Or a rabbit. He never came back. That damn dog (Woodsie) broke my heart.
(my parents did not train or exercise this dog, except to let him off leash to run)
-My third dog Bumper was a standard poodle mix male (intact) who got cancer really young (6yrs) and died. I can't say for sure, but I want to say it was something to do with his parts having cancer. I gave him my blanket to be cremated in. My heart... broken. He also bit, a lot, barked and jumped all over you, pulled your pants off and would mount everything. All of my Barbies were amputees.
(again, no training or exercise except the yard)
-My mom's dog Honey is an intact female rat terrier (noticing a parental pattern, here?). She will be 14 (or 15?) this year. That dog is healthier than I am, I swear. She will live forever. This is my first indication that there is something to keeping them intact until fully mature. However, empty heats were really hard on her and she went a bit nuts twice a year, pacing drooling howling. She's always been really cranky and possessive (though my sister created that with bones). I trained this dog to be off leash in the yard and I exercised her daily. All things considered, she's a really good, healthy (minus cataracts/arthritis) dog.
So now my stuff. I have been knocked over and hair tugged at and clothes ripped and peed on, and nails dug into me so they can 'hold on' by only intact dogs or dogs newly neutered at the shelter. I have bite scars, one from my own neutered dog, and one from an intact lab. You can't truly take into account their overall temperament, being shelter/rescue dogs. Who don't get training most of the time. Who do not get exercised on a daily basis.
I think overall, my thought was "I'm not breedin' them, I'm gonna fix them". I never want to be responsible for an unplanned litter. Ever. I want to be a good example to others, I want people to see that there is nothing to worry about in neutering your pet dog.
But... Jiro is stable. By that I mean he doesn't have sporatic temper tantrums or turn aggressive at the flip of a hat. He is not unpredictable.
I believe the altercation Kitsune had with him was his first, he was visibly shaken and confused. A 2 year old intact male, who didn't fight back. That BLEW my mind.
He's affectionate, but not by mounting. By pushing into you with his head to be scratched and hugged. By licking your face and hands. By swirling our ankles like a cat when its hungry. He's marvelously affectionate.
He likes strangers and all other dogs, he's not possessive or territorial at all. That also BLEW my mind. A non territorial intact male dog!
He isn't out of control. Yes, he was an energetic ball of go go go when he first came to us. He barked A LOT. But the exercise, training, schedule - its all paying off. He settled right into it. He is still a bit antsy right before a walk, but he's on schedule and knows it now.
Jiro is well built, solid, healthy, has a stomach of steel. He's housebroken on his own accord and doesn't mark in the house. He doesn't mark me
I admit this is a one dog scenario, I'll admit that its probably premature to call it like I see it after experience one male dog that I would want to keep intact for non reproductive purposes. But there is NOTHING WRONG with him! Nothing that makes me say "Oh that will be better once he's neutered". Nothing needs to be fixed with this dog. He's totally manageable, whole, complete just the way he is. Exactly JUST the way he is. And I'm hesitant to alter it.
I understand the social implications, and I understand the health benefits and risks. I preach it, I practiced what I preached. But I'm so conflicted because of how wonderful this dog is, just the way he is.
I'm shocked I feel this way!
But I do.
And I'm going to feel more guilty than ever neutering him tomorrow. But I know its what we have to do. Sorry, buddy.
He is young yet and many intact males as they age can be less tolerant of other males in particular. His personality is what it is and social dogs are social dogs. Much of that I swear is genetic with a sprinkle of good interaction as pups thrown in.
Remember, although he pulls at your heartstrings and he seems really perfect now, he most likely will be even better to work with in two months or so. You are setting him up for future success without all the mind blocking hormones that cause so many problems in maintaining attention and focus, along with limiting ill behavior when you least want it. Agreed, there are too many unanswered questions in any foster dog’s future not to spay or neuter.
One behavior that might be a blessing to reduce (in this particular case) is his rapt attention to other dog’s genitalia. That barrage of pushy type behavior in the beginning of meetings often causes defensive posturing between animals and probably will not help any social hour in an adoptive home or integrations. This may increase in an intact dog or older animal as they develop their full autonomy.
He does seem to need to come down a notch given his excessive nosing, crosschecks and body blocking and only time will tell if that stops with new dogs. (Hopefully in a month or so that will reduce a bit after neuter.)
This is just my take from watching the clips.
Snf
On the flip side, my mother took in every cat that ever came near our house. Many of them were quite feral. I've got tons of scars from them - from trapping them and taking them to be speutered. The purpose was to keep the population of feral cats down in our area. If that hadn't been done, I've no idea how many cats would have been around - my mom would have been the crazy cat lady, for sure.
I guess at the core of it, I'll be the first to admit that I don't know what I don't know... and there is A LOT about the dog I don't know - that we all don't know. In this individual case, this dog is so great in so many ways. Nature made him what he is, and for the first time in my LIFE, I just don't feel (if he was my dog) that its worth tampering with.
I am truly interested to see what changes will come from tomorrow's neuter. I know we have to do it, and I am sure it will help his focus in training and divert a lot of his drive from other dogs' genitalia. And it will make him more of a socially acceptable pet. And I want that for him, and his future family.
LJ - do you recall any obvious changes in your husky?
"In North America, it seems that any behaviour by dogs is automatically seen as the fault of the dog. Overpopulation is seen as a dog problem, not a people problem. The result is the call to do something about the dogs. Spay them, neuter them, euthanize them, train them, do something about them. Not the people who choose to breed them, abandon them, neglect them, abuse them.
It would take a huge upheaval in North American society for attitudes towards dogs to change so that overpopulation is quickly made a thing of the past. Until then, perhaps spaying and neutering is the only weapon that people can use to ensure that the dogs they are trying to find homes for cannot be used to bring about another generation of unwanted, unhealthy animals into the world. But, for people who are dedicated to breeding (or not) responsibly, the alternatives should not be automatically condemned. "
http://redshasta.blogspot.com/2008/04/questioning-whether-to-spay-or-neuter.html
The conversation led us to talking about Hilo and how when he was intact and Lani went into heat he was such a mess. I commented about how he was visibly uncomfortable with his hormone levels and that "fixing" him stopped all that - now he is just a mellow fluff factory. Then Marian said: "Altered k9 really do make the best companions, it's the best way to go for a pet".
I couldn't agree more. While we have VERY LITTLE issues with our intact dogs they are the ones we spend the majority of the time managing (well, them and Ahi. lol). Our intact females are even worse! They are so bitchy! Do either "fight to the death" like you read and hear about all the time? No, of course they don't, because we don't put them in a situation where they would or could do that.
Anyway, point is, I think late neutering, if you can stand it, might help with some development - especially in a L or XL breeds - but for the average pet owner, where temperament and companionship is top priority, "fixing" your k9 companion is the way to go (and I know you all agree with that, just stating the obvious).
I also think socializing your pet with intact and altered males and females (via happy interactions) is important for them to form positive associations with both "varieties".
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And, the next rescue will also be too. Always. Although, its a real learning experience for me... about why we do what we do. Why in this particular case I questioned it. How many times before I just did it because I was told to.
And in this case, social responsibility and his future were the deciding factors.
I learned though, that its not their fault they are born into a life where they cannot 'keep their parts'... its people. Its always people.
Thanks for all the input, everyone! Truly, to see it from all sides this time, was incredibly enlightening.
You know what I have found out, just cause you get a dog snipped doesn't mean that it'll eliminate their desire to go after a bitch in heat. My sister's Schipperke was snipped at 7 months, but when my mom's chihuahua goes in heat he is all over her. During that time, he's constantly licking her genitalia, guarding her from other males and even got tethered a few times.
We got him home ok, even took some 'sad eyes' pics. He napped, then about an hour later he yipped a bit. I inspected his incision which didn't look so hot. Brought him back to the vet, he had to get reglued. So now, on top of the initial vet visit, the prelim to the surgery at the clinic (who didn't do the 1st visit), the neuter, and now the reglue... this dog is breaking me within 2 weeks!
But, he's doing well now. Getting used to his e-collar. Kitsu was actually happy to see him, or at least wagged his tail and licked his muzzle through the gate.
Kitsu "Been there, buddy. Been there."
Those eyes, what a difficult choice, but you did good Jen.
I love the second pic. My caption would be.
"See what happens new guy! I told you to stop sniffin my junk."
Best wishes to Jiro during his recovery!