I asked this question because I was interested in reading all of your opinions - the general nihonken enthusiasts opinion.
I originally (few years ago) felt the breeds should be softened, made for better pets, to suit the homes they are likely to be placed in and to help reduce them ending up in rescues. As I have grown in my knowledge and experienced and met a vast number of Nihonken (and owners) my feelings have slowly moved more toward preserving the personalities of the breeds - and not softening them. Maybe because I have 4 Akita that I am disappointed with, or maybe because I have a Shikoku & Kai with high-drive that I enjoy, or maybe it's because I see the Shikoku and Kai moving closer and closer to being a "bigger Shiba". I can't say exactly, but my feeling have mos def moved toward focusing on preserving the temperament of the breeds - but I honestly am not sure that is what is right for the them.
For the Akita, I used to hate the idea of selecting them to be more sharp, I felt it was irresponsible. But after living with our Akita and seeing how much of the originally described temperament has been lost in ours I have moved toward liking the idea of breeding them to be sharper. I don't think all Akita breeders should breed them sharper, just a few breeders. I would like to see someone produce a "rustic type" Akita, one with the working qualities of the legends - not over the top, just bring some of that back to the surface. Then people who wanted a house dog Akita, and people who wanted a serious Akita, could have the flavor they prefer.
I love that Sarah called us out on the Nihonken temperament and what we are doing to preserve it. I was hoping you (Sarah) would share your opinion as you live with 3 RELs - a true working breed. Your dogs are probably closer in temperament to what the Shikoku was than any Shikoku in the US is. I agree, the topic of temperament has been beaten to death for man many rare breeds, on many many different forums, it's always a similar argument too (a circular one). But it is new for the rarer Nihonken - few in America have worked to preserve their temperaments (IMHO).
Jen and I have talked at nauseum on the topic of Nihonken temperaments, our general feeling is that we would like to produce Shikoku and Kai that fit somewhere in the middle - a dog that has the original personality qualities of the breed - a fiery disposition, loads of courage, quick reflexes, and a compulsive personality. A dog with real survivor skills, one that keeps you thinking, but not one with such high drive that they are unhappy as a companion. I think Ahi fits this mold very well, but unfortunately, from what I can see, each generation of Shikoku has gotten softer and softer.
There is an ATTS event in Texas in a few months that we have been planning to attend with a few dogs (hopefully Loa & Kona). There is an issue with hunting trials, most are closed to specific breeds and so I have few options for proving our dog's hunting / baying instincts. We have been working with some local trainers on tracking, we plan to get Kona involved - I have even been working on that with him here at the house.
Jing - You can call me Osy, & I am of the female species. lol
Tara - Oh of course! I love all 6 of the Japanese Spitz breeds, however, I think of the 4 that are most easily attainable [ Akita, Shiba, Kai, & Shikoku ] The Shika & Kai would "fit me" ideally the best. My goal is to have one shikoku & one kai, just because, while they share many similarities there are definitely differences that attract me to both.
Also I would love to pack the dogs [ as Brad does with Kona ] as well as try out new outlets that the nihon ken aren't used so much for but I feel they have the potential to really do well in. [ obedience, agility, tracking ]
Methinks, there is a LOT of untapped potential in these pups & I Would love to have the opportunity to work with them & bring that out!
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To my orginal thought process, I guess the word I'm trying to think of is "rugged." Shikoku, & Kai especially, tend to be more "rugged" whereas Shiba & Akita are not so much anymore. However, Shikoku & Kai, because of their "high drive" seem to have more anxiety, & I would love to see them keep that high drive whilst reducing their "anxiety" as much as possible.
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Likewise, I also believe it's impossible to breed a dog with "perfect" temperament as 1. these are organic, living beings & 2. Everyone has a different definition of "perfect." [ It'd be like saying a human with the "perfect" personality ]
We can get our pups as close to ideal as possible however there will always be "drawbacks." [ ie: high drive = high anxiety ] That is, where I believe, we as humans, as people responsible for these animals, have to come in & work with them to the best of our & our dog's abilities.
"I would love to see them keep that high drive whilst reducing their "anxiety" as much as possible."
Me too! Could you work with Koda on that? lol.
Koda's confidence and his happy go lucky dimeanor comes out when he is hiking with me, and when he has a job to do. I hide treats all over the house, or on cool days outside, and it's his job to find them. He's not AS food motivated as I would have been lead to believe Kai are but it's the job, the task, that he loves. Kai's are VERY intelligent dogs, and they learn by just watching. I think that if you keep them busy and use their high drive you can lower their anxiety. Well this is my thought, and hopefully it will work out with Koda.
Brad and Jen ummm a little update on Kona tracking would be great on his thread *hint hint*.
Just to clarify, is hunting, tracking, herding and guarding the only thing regarded to be "work"? If so, are Schutzhund, ring sport, obedience, agility, rally, lure coursing and other dog events just recreation? It sure seems like a lot of work to me (I'm exhausted!), even though what we do doesn't involve protection. The spirit is the same to me, so I still refer to it as working with my dogs, which are Shiba, but perhaps I should call it something else? Perhaps cross-training would be more correct?
Tara -- The first time I meet a kai in person I will most likely faint with glee! lol
I think, because of the high drive tho, is what makes the dog prone to higher anxiety. I think they go hand & hand. It sucks, but, that's the trade we have to make.
I'm sure Koda is super appreciative of all your efforts to lessen that anxiety tho
Lindsay - I consider giving a dog any "job" to do is "work." Hiking / packing, agility, rally, coursing, etc. for me, IMHO, are all work, as the dog is given an "outlet" & a "job."
However, if these things are done only once a month, I would consider it "recreation." I see work as being something fairly regular, a regular outlet for the dog to decrease anxiety. So...if it's only done once a month or so, It's more of a "recreation" or "hobby" then work...
If Hiking and otherwise actually doing stuff with your dog on a regular basis qualifies as 'working', I know of very few individual dog of any breed or temperament that isn't up for "working".. LOL
I think I have been off in my own little world then regarding a "working" dog on these threads.. sigh.. :T
I think a lot of it is dependent on the owner in that regard. We have two dogs that are typically thought of as being "non" working - just "toys", if you will. However, they ARE our hiking buddies through the national parks here that we go to at least once every week. We don't hike 13+ miles like Osy, but we average around 5 miles.. and they do carry their own equipment. Our older dog no longer goes due to age and infirmity. It is entirely possible for many non-working dogs to have working personalities for rally, obedience, agility, etc.
I agree with you, Brada, that probably the best way to go about it is to have different kennels breeding for different goals. ..
I guess what I'm pondering, is that even a traditional working breed may not have the drive to work and would be happier as a pet, whereas a breed not generally regarded as a working dog, like a Shiba, can have what it takes to do hard work that requires lots of focus. I realize true working breeds never turn it off, like Brad and Jen's big L, but I would consider what my Shiba do, to be a form of work on request-the hours of Obedience each week, the Agility training, and now training for Flyball and Rally (next month) to be her work that she enjoys in addition to being my office dog. Even though this isn't protection, hunting (yet), tracking (yet), or Service work, the time and energy put into it is work to me and is something that I believe she feels is her job to do. Does this qualify as true work and if not, what is it?
I consider everything you (and Chrys) mentioned to be 'work' for dogs. I know a certified Therapy Dog very well and she knows when she is 'working' and she knows when she is not. It is definitely her job. She also is quite an accomplished Earth Dog competitor, and she has a totally different mode for that 'job', as well. You have to watch her when she's just being a pet dog, then watch when she's digging furiously at a rat, then watch as she brightens up the day of a nursing home resident - she knows when she's working.
I think my ideal dog encompasses all of that - be it Shikoku or Shih Tzu. A dog that is willing to work with you to do the job you feel it is best suited for. Job is everything from obedience to therapy to hunting to guarding.
I too, appreciate everyone's candid responses. There are many important considerations if you are in Brad's shoes and embarking on a breeding program, or if you are involved with a rare breed.
Jing - I found it very interesting that you specifically stated you didn't want a KBD! (Mainly because recently KBDs have been bred as show dogs and companions much like the NihonKen!) What in your mind, makes them so much more to contend with? Perhaps it's the reputation?
I certainly don't have all the answers, but I have come to some conclusions. Recall that I did not go seeking out the REL. The REL came to me - I essentially inherited them (I was all set to get a Rhodesian Ridgeback!). I have made my mistakes with the Laika Trio, and we have had our successes. I am infinitely greatful for a childhood full of naughty terriers (that's redundant, I realize)! Had I owned only Shelties or something, I would have been woefully underprepared for these wingnuts! I also have a very interesting personal 'case study' because I live with three littermates! I believe that Laikas should be 'handler-soft', but I am willing to tolerate their less-than diplomatic nature with other dogs (mostly a collective issue...they are pretty chill one-on-one). As many of you readers know, all three RELs have CGCs. Their dam and sire had CGCs and were certified with ATTS.
Tuli has been with me the longest. I had her while I was still in graduate school and she lived on campus at UW Madison. As a result, the dog will sleep through a parade. Also as a result, because I wasn't educated enough and put her in too many uncontrolled situations with other dogs - she is the most dog-aggressive. Lest you think she is not well-socialized, on the contrary - she is also the one who is the most likely to engage another dog in play. She is a tremendous problem solver and the most biddable. She likes food, but she will still focus on the task being asked of her. She is a classic middle ranking squabbler and always has been. She is hypervigilent and can be determined - she is the dog that will get the zoomies when revved as described in "Control Unleashed". She is an avid hunter and has a quick trigger, but I think she is very manageable and she is content to ignore other dogs (as long as they ignore her). We work a great deal on 'turn-on, turn-off', take-it, release-it, and other self-control exercises. She is a short-range hunter and checks in on her own frequently when off-leash.
Puppies stay with their dams for a very limited amount of time compared to say, horses (7-8 weeks vs. 6 months). In both instances, I would agree that the dam can have a larger overall influence on the offsprings' temperament than the sire. The most irresponsible thing in my mind, would be to breed a fearful bitch. Now, there is a fine line defining this in a primitive (I know you hate the word, Brad) breed. What I mean by that is, these dogs have a highly developed sense of self preservation, are reactive, territorial, and aloof with strangers. That could all be wrapped up in FEAR. But, what is unacceptable to me, is a dog that CANNOT recover. These dogs need to be confident enough to make their own decisions - that is the baseline for an independent hunting breed. A dog that is spooky and checks out mentally is unacceptable. A dog that is quick to enter passive resistance and is paralyzed by fear is unacceptable.
Now, more about fear: Triepak is my most skeptical Laika. If we have a houseful of people, he often just goes upstairs. When I got a new dogwalker, he initially refused to go with him (even though I had the guy visit when I was present, and even though the guy visited with another known person in the dogwalking service). There are couples that visit us frequently and he is very gregarious - they are in his 'address book' and he will not forget them. He is equally uncomfortable around strange children. Triepak is largely deferential or playful around strange dogs. He is the 'snuggliest' of the three in the home...the one most likely to be on the couch curled up beside you. He is highly food motivated to the point that he will focus so much on the treat, he won't truly think about what he is doing. Triepak can be quick to fire off about something, and it might not be a genuine threat according to the other two. Fortunately he is also biddable and easy to redirect. He could be described as the 'neediest' of the three...the most likely to solicit attention. If provided with consistent socialization in his youth, Triepak would be the most appropriate 'pet' REL. He likes exercise, but he won't make you crazy like the other two if his hikes/bikes are shortchanged. He's laid back around the house and unlike Tuli doesn't feel the need to stand post.
Triepak is interesting to me in contrast to Guska who could be described as the most 'stable' of the three. Guska is a very confident dog; reliable around all people, children, and other dogs. It takes a great deal to push him, but if another dog crosses his high threshold he is a force to be reckoned with. He does NOT prefer to play with strange dogs but Tuli entices him to play with her. Triepak and Guska never play with each other (they haven't since puppy-hood). In a dog park situation, Guska would rather do his own activities which involve hunting, or running around peeing on things. Guska is the least biddable of the three. His level of independence can be exceedingly frustrating. I would hate to see him in other hands because I think the potential for him to be abused would be high. He is wicked smart and can be clownish and affectionate, but we work on little things, like name recognition, on a daily basis. He makes me work HARD as a trainer. I have to be interesting and innovative (to him). He is not food motivated and he NEVER stops hunting when he is outside. He has the least 'repeat factor' in him. He is the least appropriate as a pet, in my opinion. He has a longer range when hunting and will check in every 30 minutes or so when off-leash.
I have thought about the two boys quite a bit and factors that may have influenced them. All three attended a puppy socialization class and then the males were shuffled around a bit after MJ's death. They lived in Estonia for a time and went hunting with their sire's owner. They moved from WI to NH where they were maintained as outside dogs. Triepak was very outgoing as a puppy, and I think that he simply reacted differently to the instability in his younger years than Guska did. He probably was a dog that needed to 'practice' his social skills every day and practice being confident. I don't believe he has a faulty temperament for the breed, but maybe I'm cutting him too much slack. He does display resilience and has improved greatly since living with us full-time. He travels well, will tolerate a judge's exam, will tolerate a veterinary exam (no muzzle), I can leave him at a grooming place and some stranger can bathe him and blow him out, he has become great pals with the new dog walker, he is not aggressive towards visitors, and he can sit and observe children playing or sit close while they pet Tuli and Guska and he doesn't lose it. He is able to accomplish every day-to-day activity asked of him with no outward signs of stress.
Ideally, I would strive for something between Tuli/Triepak and Guska. I would like to retain much of the biddability that Tuli and Triepak possess with just a pinch more confidence. Too much, though and you get on the tenacious single-mindedness of the Guska spectrum and he can be just a nightmare to call off something that he's interested in. So far, I refuse to resort to a shock collar. The only thing I would shock a Laika for is fighting amongst themselves over downed game. They must learn that downed game is MINE. (So far, I haven't had to do that either since I've always been able to intervene in time.)
That's a tough thing to accomplish. I think this is what Patrice was alluding to - which dogs are BIDDABLE.
As far as the 'work' question, I don't have a great answer for that either other than to say, whatever makes the dog physically and mentally content is good. I don't reguarly hunt with these dogs. I used to feel rather guilty about that, but I do the best I can. I don't live in a rural place currently since I am married to the Navy. I have a real job, a horse, a husband, and commitments associated with all. I am confident that the dogs are capable of real work (hunting) because we tested their aptitude when they were younger on boar and they were all enthusiastic hunters. As I mentioned above, the males were hunted in Estonia for a year. There are no hunt tests specifically for Laiki in the US as there are in Europe. My dogs are eligible for UKC hunting events, but I have not pursued this. Their hunting style doesn't really lend itself well to running around with a bunch of coonhounds at night (unlike hounds, they won't bark until they are treed). Some of the Cur & Feist baying events might be OK.
I think you could argue all day about 'work' vs. 'sport'. In the end, it doesn't mean two hoots to the dog. Some hard core hunters would cringe at the fact that the Laiki go to agility class. However, I happen to believe that anything you can do to bond with these dogs is good. It does NOTHING to diminish their desire to hunt - that is hardware, if you will. They won't be RUINED somehow by going through an agility tunnel when you ask. They will still look up, still bark squirrel, still kill groundhogs etc. etc. What I would NOT do, is sell a Laika to a 'hunter' that keeps them kenneled and hunts only intermittently. These dogs don't do well in kennels like Curs and Hounds. I have no problems with them living outside, but they need their 'family time'. They are very devoted to their people. So, as long as they get to spend TIME IN THE WOODS, and time with their family, they are happy in content in my experience. They might not be clingy, but they like proximity. I praise them for barking squirrels, and they delight in hearing me say "Check it!" so they can dash over to a culvert, hole, or tree and see what's there. Conversely, punishing them for treeing would be inexcusable in my mind.
So if you don't mind a less-than-stellar recall, noisy harrassment of all local wildlife (including cats), getting up at 4:00 AM during the week, walking a minimum of 8 miles per day - every day - in all weather, being jarred from sleep at 2:30 AM because the dogs are informing you that foxes are raiding the trash at the curb, being presented with carnage from time to time, spending a ridiculous amount of money on dead cow parts for them to gnaw on, and abstaining from a bunch of places with unruly off-leash dogs, then a Laika just might be for you!
Osy, You should come visit the Bay Area and you can hang out with Koda all you want! He does love meeting new humans.
"Job is everything from obedience to therapy to hunting to guarding." I totally agree.
I do not think that Koda hiking with me is a "job", but it is where we work together and he is confident. It's an outlet for his puppy curiosity to prevail and he is happiest getting energy out at his own pace. It's really good for the two of us to be alone in the hills, on the trails, in the trees. He loves it, and it's when we are the closest to eachother. It helps us to bond and build trust. He will go wherever I want him to and climb rocks that must seem large to him. His fears aren't apparent like they are in other situations.
"Jing - I found it very interesting that you specifically stated you didn't want a KBD! (Mainly because recently KBDs have been bred as show dogs and companions much like the NihonKen!) What in your mind, makes them so much more to contend with? Perhaps it's the reputation?"
I agree, I think in Europe they are breeding a lot more for show. I noticed in North America, especially Canada, they are using KBD's more for work. A bunch of the northern and western state wildlife agencies are trying to incorporate more KBD's/REL's into their workforce.
I think just the KBDs that I have read on - I haven't read on the show aspect of them, yet - led me to think that way.. although in the back of my mind, I had thought they were more or less in the same shoes as other older hunting dogs. I haven't actually heard of the show KBDs that much at all, actually.. hmmmmm
One dog I have seen used for hunting still was one in Mongolia.. but now I can't recall off the top of my head which that was.. hmm....
"A bunch of the northern and western state wildlife agencies are trying to incorporate more KBD's/REL's into their workforce."
----This is the type of thing I want for the Kai and/or Shikoku. They are starting to use Kai in Japan for Raccoon control.
I have chatted with several KBD breeders and orgs and have been toying with ideas on how we could use some of our Nihonken in programs that use KBD. First would be to test them tho, and I have been working on that front as well, but it's NOT easy to find appropriate (safe) tests for that type of work. My #1 mission has been finding a hunter with captive boar that they use to trial their hunting dogs - then trial our Nihonken in a similar manner. Or visiting an org that uses the dogs for moose / bear control and testing their reaction to those types of animals.
Jessika - When do you think you will be getting your KBD?
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As for what is "working" vs sport. I think doing any of the tasks described above can be considered "working your dog", but I don't think that means you have a "working dog". To me, a "working dog" is a dog that has been selected for it's working qualities and not it's show wins.
For example, Ahi is a GREAT "worker", but I don't consider her a "working dog". While Blue is also an amazing "worker", I do consider him a "working dog" because we got him specifically to fill a working role and he came from a kennel that selects for working temperament first (unlike Ahi).
I don't consider Kona a "working dog" either, even tho his role is very similar to Blue's.
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Sarah wrote: The most irresponsible thing in my mind, would be to breed a fearful bitch. Now, there is a fine line defining this in a primitive (I know you hate the word, Brad) breed. What I mean by that is, these dogs have a highly developed sense of self preservation, are reactive, territorial, and aloof with strangers. That could all be wrapped up in FEAR. But, what is unacceptable to me, is a dog that CANNOT recover. These dogs need to be confident enough to make their own decisions - that is the baseline for an independent hunting breed. A dog that is spooky and checks out mentally is unacceptable. A dog that is quick to enter passive resistance and is paralyzed by fear is unacceptable.
I couldn't agree more, this is where it becomes very sticky and where a breeder really needs to know their dogs and pay attention to their females. In the past so much energy has been put on the studs of a kennel and the females have been kept out of the picture, that's a dangerous game (IMHO) when you consider how important the females personality is in the temperament of her offspring. The whole time a pup is in gestation they are subject to the stresses of the female, if you have a female that stresses easily due to the presence of another dog you can guarantee your pups will get some amount of that type of reactivity.
When you start to look at the guardian breeds, IMHO, the line between too much fear and too little defensive drive becomes very blurry. It's hard to say if a dog is a sharp and effective guardian due to a solid guardian temperament or due to just plan fear - are they guarding their yard so effectively because they are basically scared out of their mind? How can you even judge if it's fear or drive that makes them a good worker - this is where the ATTS shines, IMO.
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In a perfect world, for our program, our plan has been to select our females to be more pet friendly: low-stress, easy going, social, not fearful, and friendly. We may ATTS and/or CGC them and that's about it. Focus our female selection on being great family pets, make sure they have that temperament (like Loa).
Then select our males for the drive and working aptitude: bid them against boar in trials and really test that they have the original working drive. Only breed the ones that pass our boar trials and ATTS tests. Our thought was, this would help to produce a nice range of temperaments in our program allowing us to place the "pet" temperament dogs with active pet owners and the "working" temperament dogs with hunters, avid outdoorsman, or working dog homes (like S&R, sports).
The lower anxiety level of the females would help keep them stress-free during pregnancy and produce pups that were easier socialized, biddable, and confident (due to lower stress levels). The lower anxiety levels of the females as well as a lower stress pregnancy mixed with the high-drive males (our hope) would produce a balanced high-drive to medium-drive pup. Time will tell I guess.
"In the past so much energy has been put on the studs of a kennel and the females have been kept out of the picture, that's a dangerous game (IMHO) when you consider how important the females personality is in the temperament of her offspring. The whole time a pup is in gestation they are subject to the stresses of the female, if you have a female that stresses easily due to the presence of another dog you can guarantee your pups will get some amount of that type of reactivity."
Growing up partly on a breeding farm, I never remember sending out pics of the mothers or many people caring about our breeding bitches as much as we heard about our studs. I totally agree Brad. They stole the show and overshadowed the importance of the mother in prospective buyers.
Not only is the pup affected while the mother is pregnant (which I agree with), but also when the pup is born. A pup's healthy development during the first couple months is built on the foundation of parental protection and support from their mother not the stud. A mother becomes less available to their pup while coping with fear and stress and worrying about her surroundings. This puts a strain on the mother/pup relationship which will be the foundation for any and all future relationships. Puppies who do not have a good bond with their mother, will grow up to be dogs who have strained relationships with the outside world in general, thus fear and anxiety.
With all the talk about working and temperament, I think that conformation, as little as it is liked on this thread, has to come up. I think that while it may take a lesser priority than the other two, it can't be ignored. A Kai ken or any other dog regardless of how well it works or how 'good' of a dog it is, must still look like that dog and be a good representative, physically, of that breed. I don't mean having good knees or good eyes. Do standing, correctly set ears, a correct stop (in regards to the head), etc matter as much as being able to work? No, maybe not, but it's still something that is important in keeping the phenotype.
As for boar trials.. I hope you don't mean anything like boar baiting. In areas where boar is still hunted by dogs (not baiting), many times the dogs do have special equipment like kevlar vests etc to protect them against boar. Those things are ABLE animals and even lions in Africa don't like to attack a grown female boar. Those things can and do kill. What would boar trials entail?
I'm talking about a dog's ability to bay a boar - not catch/bite - not baiting. In most cases (and in the only cases I would consider) the boar has it's tusks filed down for testing to reduce risk of injury (specifically being impaled or gutted) and is usually a boar waiting for slaughter (to feed humans).
But...
What do you think Shikoku and Kai (and Kishu and Hokka) were used for? They didn't have Kevlar vests on when baying boar in the 1700s/1800s(/1900s or even today). Ask Jin or Shigeru if they put Kevlar vests on their Nihonken when they hunt boar.
THAT is where the temperament of these dogs is important, and THAT is what they were designed for - fearless, quick reflexes (reactive), tenacious temperaments is what it took to bay boar.
I'm not saying all Shikoku / Kai should have that temperament (I realize that is unrealistic and dangerous to the breed), but I think some of them should still have the qualities that allow them to preform their original role. And when I speak of "original temperament" I am referring to their ability to perform the role they were originally selected for.
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As for confirmation, sure, I think it's important for the breeds to match their standards. But this is a discussion about temperament and I was describing (and asking opinions on) what I (we) feel the temperament of Nihonken should be and how I (we, you) plan to get there.
This is NOT a discussion on phenotype in general - we can open a new discussion for that, it's important too.
I think the "form follows function" argument can apply here too, a dog selected for their original working role will inevitably have the proper confirmation needed to do their job and if the standards are written correctly the end result should mirror the standards from a confirmation perspective.
It's up to the individual breeding program as to how heavily weighted they want their breeding program to be with confirmation. For me it's workability/temperament, health, and then confirmation. JMO
side note: I would like to see the above logic/plan (form follows function yielding proper confirmation) applied to the Akita, I guarantee you wouldn't end with a dog that matches the standard - same applies to the GSD, Bulldog, Neo, Dane, etc.
I don't know if I'll ever get another Shiba Inu because I do not like how many breeders have soften their character. I love my rugged, high-energy, high prey drive Akira. He really has the independent streak of primitive breeds and sometimes I think that if he ever gets lost in the forest, he might not come back because it suits him better. If people are really looking for companion only dogs, they are plenty of breeds that fit perfectly this description and I do not see why Nihon Ken should fit in this mold.
Brada, I realize that dogs in the past don't have any protective wear. And I also realize that the rate of injury or death may also be high. If one thinks of a dog as a hunting tool or something like an utility, then injury is just something that happens. But personally if my dog did hunt, while injury is natural and likely, I personally think of the dogs as family members foremost that I would want protected while doing their jobs. JMO.
Brad- not soon enough, not soon enough! Our breeder (Grawpaws) is having a possible litter in the fall, but we will probably end up waiting for springtime.
"I have chatted with several KBD breeders and orgs and have been toying with ideas on how we could use some of our Nihonken in programs that use KBD."
I think that is freaking awesome. Getting shikas into working programs will set up conservation and protection of their temperaments and working/hunting abilities.
"If one thinks of a dog as a hunting tool or something like an utility, then injury is just something that happens."
I don't think hunters think of them as tools or utilities, more as a compadre. A lot of time and effort went into training these dogs to be good hunters. Usually there is a pack of dogs (safety in number) and no direct attacking of the animal is involved. That is illegal in most, if not all states. The dogs will corner the animal and bark for the hunter to arrive and do his job. A hunting dog's job is to track and corner, not attack (medium to large game).
There's a KBD breeder in So. Cal that does S&R with their dogs and claims that it is their sorry Brad, but I'm quoting "primitiveness" and ruggedness through all types of terrains that makes them good rescue dogs.
Comments
A Kai would be very content in any of these tasks.
My turn...
I asked this question because I was interested in reading all of your opinions - the general nihonken enthusiasts opinion.
I originally (few years ago) felt the breeds should be softened, made for better pets, to suit the homes they are likely to be placed in and to help reduce them ending up in rescues. As I have grown in my knowledge and experienced and met a vast number of Nihonken (and owners) my feelings have slowly moved more toward preserving the personalities of the breeds - and not softening them. Maybe because I have 4 Akita that I am disappointed with, or maybe because I have a Shikoku & Kai with high-drive that I enjoy, or maybe it's because I see the Shikoku and Kai moving closer and closer to being a "bigger Shiba". I can't say exactly, but my feeling have mos def moved toward focusing on preserving the temperament of the breeds - but I honestly am not sure that is what is right for the them.
For the Akita, I used to hate the idea of selecting them to be more sharp, I felt it was irresponsible. But after living with our Akita and seeing how much of the originally described temperament has been lost in ours I have moved toward liking the idea of breeding them to be sharper. I don't think all Akita breeders should breed them sharper, just a few breeders. I would like to see someone produce a "rustic type" Akita, one with the working qualities of the legends - not over the top, just bring some of that back to the surface. Then people who wanted a house dog Akita, and people who wanted a serious Akita, could have the flavor they prefer.
I love that Sarah called us out on the Nihonken temperament and what we are doing to preserve it. I was hoping you (Sarah) would share your opinion as you live with 3 RELs - a true working breed. Your dogs are probably closer in temperament to what the Shikoku was than any Shikoku in the US is. I agree, the topic of temperament has been beaten to death for man many rare breeds, on many many different forums, it's always a similar argument too (a circular one). But it is new for the rarer Nihonken - few in America have worked to preserve their temperaments (IMHO).
Jen and I have talked at nauseum on the topic of Nihonken temperaments, our general feeling is that we would like to produce Shikoku and Kai that fit somewhere in the middle - a dog that has the original personality qualities of the breed - a fiery disposition, loads of courage, quick reflexes, and a compulsive personality. A dog with real survivor skills, one that keeps you thinking, but not one with such high drive that they are unhappy as a companion. I think Ahi fits this mold very well, but unfortunately, from what I can see, each generation of Shikoku has gotten softer and softer.
There is an ATTS event in Texas in a few months that we have been planning to attend with a few dogs (hopefully Loa & Kona). There is an issue with hunting trials, most are closed to specific breeds and so I have few options for proving our dog's hunting / baying instincts. We have been working with some local trainers on tracking, we plan to get Kona involved - I have even been working on that with him here at the house.
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Tara - Oh of course! I love all 6 of the Japanese Spitz breeds, however, I think of the 4 that are most easily attainable [ Akita, Shiba, Kai, & Shikoku ] The Shika & Kai would "fit me" ideally the best. My goal is to have one shikoku & one kai, just because, while they share many similarities there are definitely differences that attract me to both.
Also I would love to pack the dogs [ as Brad does with Kona ] as well as try out new outlets that the nihon ken aren't used so much for but I feel they have the potential to really do well in. [ obedience, agility, tracking ]
Methinks, there is a LOT of untapped potential in these pups & I Would love to have the opportunity to work with them & bring that out!
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To my orginal thought process, I guess the word I'm trying to think of is "rugged." Shikoku, & Kai especially, tend to be more "rugged" whereas Shiba & Akita are not so much anymore. However, Shikoku & Kai, because of their "high drive" seem to have more anxiety, & I would love to see them keep that high drive whilst reducing their "anxiety" as much as possible.
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Likewise, I also believe it's impossible to breed a dog with "perfect" temperament as 1. these are organic, living beings & 2. Everyone has a different definition of "perfect." [ It'd be like saying a human with the "perfect" personality ]
We can get our pups as close to ideal as possible however there will always be "drawbacks." [ ie: high drive = high anxiety ] That is, where I believe, we as humans, as people responsible for these animals, have to come in & work with them to the best of our & our dog's abilities.
Me too! Could you work with Koda on that? lol.
Koda's confidence and his happy go lucky dimeanor comes out when he is hiking with me, and when he has a job to do. I hide treats all over the house, or on cool days outside, and it's his job to find them. He's not AS food motivated as I would have been lead to believe Kai are but it's the job, the task, that he loves. Kai's are VERY intelligent dogs, and they learn by just watching. I think that if you keep them busy and use their high drive you can lower their anxiety. Well this is my thought, and hopefully it will work out with Koda.
Brad and Jen ummm a little update on Kona tracking would be great on his thread *hint hint*.
I think, because of the high drive tho, is what makes the dog prone to higher anxiety. I think they go hand & hand. It sucks, but, that's the trade we have to make.
I'm sure Koda is super appreciative of all your efforts to lessen that anxiety tho
Lindsay - I consider giving a dog any "job" to do is "work." Hiking / packing, agility, rally, coursing, etc. for me, IMHO, are all work, as the dog is given an "outlet" & a "job."
However, if these things are done only once a month, I would consider it "recreation." I see work as being something fairly regular, a regular outlet for the dog to decrease anxiety. So...if it's only done once a month or so, It's more of a "recreation" or "hobby" then work...
if that makes sense
I think I have been off in my own little world then regarding a "working" dog on these threads.. sigh.. :T
I think a lot of it is dependent on the owner in that regard. We have two dogs that are typically thought of as being "non" working - just "toys", if you will. However, they ARE our hiking buddies through the national parks here that we go to at least once every week. We don't hike 13+ miles like Osy, but we average around 5 miles.. and they do carry their own equipment. Our older dog no longer goes due to age and infirmity. It is entirely possible for many non-working dogs to have working personalities for rally, obedience, agility, etc.
I agree with you, Brada, that probably the best way to go about it is to have different kennels breeding for different goals. ..
She also is quite an accomplished Earth Dog competitor, and she has a totally different mode for that 'job', as well.
You have to watch her when she's just being a pet dog, then watch when she's digging furiously at a rat, then watch as she brightens up the day of a nursing home resident - she knows when she's working.
I think my ideal dog encompasses all of that - be it Shikoku or Shih Tzu. A dog that is willing to work with you to do the job you feel it is best suited for. Job is everything from obedience to therapy to hunting to guarding.
Jing - I found it very interesting that you specifically stated you didn't want a KBD! (Mainly because recently KBDs have been bred as show dogs and companions much like the NihonKen!) What in your mind, makes them so much more to contend with? Perhaps it's the reputation?
I certainly don't have all the answers, but I have come to some conclusions. Recall that I did not go seeking out the REL. The REL came to me - I essentially inherited them (I was all set to get a Rhodesian Ridgeback!). I have made my mistakes with the Laika Trio, and we have had our successes. I am infinitely greatful for a childhood full of naughty terriers (that's redundant, I realize)! Had I owned only Shelties or something, I would have been woefully underprepared for these wingnuts! I also have a very interesting personal 'case study' because I live with three littermates! I believe that Laikas should be 'handler-soft', but I am willing to tolerate their less-than diplomatic nature with other dogs (mostly a collective issue...they are pretty chill one-on-one). As many of you readers know, all three RELs have CGCs. Their dam and sire had CGCs and were certified with ATTS.
Tuli has been with me the longest. I had her while I was still in graduate school and she lived on campus at UW Madison. As a result, the dog will sleep through a parade. Also as a result, because I wasn't educated enough and put her in too many uncontrolled situations with other dogs - she is the most dog-aggressive. Lest you think she is not well-socialized, on the contrary - she is also the one who is the most likely to engage another dog in play. She is a tremendous problem solver and the most biddable. She likes food, but she will still focus on the task being asked of her. She is a classic middle ranking squabbler and always has been. She is hypervigilent and can be determined - she is the dog that will get the zoomies when revved as described in "Control Unleashed". She is an avid hunter and has a quick trigger, but I think she is very manageable and she is content to ignore other dogs (as long as they ignore her). We work a great deal on 'turn-on, turn-off', take-it, release-it, and other self-control exercises. She is a short-range hunter and checks in on her own frequently when off-leash.
Puppies stay with their dams for a very limited amount of time compared to say, horses (7-8 weeks vs. 6 months). In both instances, I would agree that the dam can have a larger overall influence on the offsprings' temperament than the sire. The most irresponsible thing in my mind, would be to breed a fearful bitch. Now, there is a fine line defining this in a primitive (I know you hate the word, Brad) breed. What I mean by that is, these dogs have a highly developed sense of self preservation, are reactive, territorial, and aloof with strangers. That could all be wrapped up in FEAR. But, what is unacceptable to me, is a dog that CANNOT recover. These dogs need to be confident enough to make their own decisions - that is the baseline for an independent hunting breed. A dog that is spooky and checks out mentally is unacceptable. A dog that is quick to enter passive resistance and is paralyzed by fear is unacceptable.
Now, more about fear: Triepak is my most skeptical Laika. If we have a houseful of people, he often just goes upstairs. When I got a new dogwalker, he initially refused to go with him (even though I had the guy visit when I was present, and even though the guy visited with another known person in the dogwalking service). There are couples that visit us frequently and he is very gregarious - they are in his 'address book' and he will not forget them. He is equally uncomfortable around strange children. Triepak is largely deferential or playful around strange dogs. He is the 'snuggliest' of the three in the home...the one most likely to be on the couch curled up beside you. He is highly food motivated to the point that he will focus so much on the treat, he won't truly think about what he is doing. Triepak can be quick to fire off about something, and it might not be a genuine threat according to the other two. Fortunately he is also biddable and easy to redirect. He could be described as the 'neediest' of the three...the most likely to solicit attention. If provided with consistent socialization in his youth, Triepak would be the most appropriate 'pet' REL. He likes exercise, but he won't make you crazy like the other two if his hikes/bikes are shortchanged. He's laid back around the house and unlike Tuli doesn't feel the need to stand post.
Triepak is interesting to me in contrast to Guska who could be described as the most 'stable' of the three. Guska is a very confident dog; reliable around all people, children, and other dogs. It takes a great deal to push him, but if another dog crosses his high threshold he is a force to be reckoned with. He does NOT prefer to play with strange dogs but Tuli entices him to play with her. Triepak and Guska never play with each other (they haven't since puppy-hood). In a dog park situation, Guska would rather do his own activities which involve hunting, or running around peeing on things. Guska is the least biddable of the three. His level of independence can be exceedingly frustrating. I would hate to see him in other hands because I think the potential for him to be abused would be high. He is wicked smart and can be clownish and affectionate, but we work on little things, like name recognition, on a daily basis. He makes me work HARD as a trainer. I have to be interesting and innovative (to him). He is not food motivated and he NEVER stops hunting when he is outside. He has the least 'repeat factor' in him. He is the least appropriate as a pet, in my opinion. He has a longer range when hunting and will check in every 30 minutes or so when off-leash.
I have thought about the two boys quite a bit and factors that may have influenced them. All three attended a puppy socialization class and then the males were shuffled around a bit after MJ's death. They lived in Estonia for a time and went hunting with their sire's owner. They moved from WI to NH where they were maintained as outside dogs. Triepak was very outgoing as a puppy, and I think that he simply reacted differently to the instability in his younger years than Guska did. He probably was a dog that needed to 'practice' his social skills every day and practice being confident. I don't believe he has a faulty temperament for the breed, but maybe I'm cutting him too much slack. He does display resilience and has improved greatly since living with us full-time. He travels well, will tolerate a judge's exam, will tolerate a veterinary exam (no muzzle), I can leave him at a grooming place and some stranger can bathe him and blow him out, he has become great pals with the new dog walker, he is not aggressive towards visitors, and he can sit and observe children playing or sit close while they pet Tuli and Guska and he doesn't lose it. He is able to accomplish every day-to-day activity asked of him with no outward signs of stress.
Ideally, I would strive for something between Tuli/Triepak and Guska. I would like to retain much of the biddability that Tuli and Triepak possess with just a pinch more confidence. Too much, though and you get on the tenacious single-mindedness of the Guska spectrum and he can be just a nightmare to call off something that he's interested in. So far, I refuse to resort to a shock collar. The only thing I would shock a Laika for is fighting amongst themselves over downed game. They must learn that downed game is MINE. (So far, I haven't had to do that either since I've always been able to intervene in time.)
That's a tough thing to accomplish. I think this is what Patrice was alluding to - which dogs are BIDDABLE.
As far as the 'work' question, I don't have a great answer for that either other than to say, whatever makes the dog physically and mentally content is good. I don't reguarly hunt with these dogs. I used to feel rather guilty about that, but I do the best I can. I don't live in a rural place currently since I am married to the Navy. I have a real job, a horse, a husband, and commitments associated with all. I am confident that the dogs are capable of real work (hunting) because we tested their aptitude when they were younger on boar and they were all enthusiastic hunters. As I mentioned above, the males were hunted in Estonia for a year. There are no hunt tests specifically for Laiki in the US as there are in Europe. My dogs are eligible for UKC hunting events, but I have not pursued this. Their hunting style doesn't really lend itself well to running around with a bunch of coonhounds at night (unlike hounds, they won't bark until they are treed). Some of the Cur & Feist baying events might be OK.
I think you could argue all day about 'work' vs. 'sport'. In the end, it doesn't mean two hoots to the dog. Some hard core hunters would cringe at the fact that the Laiki go to agility class. However, I happen to believe that anything you can do to bond with these dogs is good. It does NOTHING to diminish their desire to hunt - that is hardware, if you will. They won't be RUINED somehow by going through an agility tunnel when you ask. They will still look up, still bark squirrel, still kill groundhogs etc. etc. What I would NOT do, is sell a Laika to a 'hunter' that keeps them kenneled and hunts only intermittently. These dogs don't do well in kennels like Curs and Hounds. I have no problems with them living outside, but they need their 'family time'. They are very devoted to their people. So, as long as they get to spend TIME IN THE WOODS, and time with their family, they are happy in content in my experience. They might not be clingy, but they like proximity.
I praise them for barking squirrels, and they delight in hearing me say "Check it!" so they can dash over to a culvert, hole, or tree and see what's there. Conversely, punishing them for treeing would be inexcusable in my mind.
So if you don't mind a less-than-stellar recall, noisy harrassment of all local wildlife (including cats), getting up at 4:00 AM during the week, walking a minimum of 8 miles per day - every day - in all weather, being jarred from sleep at 2:30 AM because the dogs are informing you that foxes are raiding the trash at the curb, being presented with carnage from time to time, spending a ridiculous amount of money on dead cow parts for them to gnaw on, and abstaining from a bunch of places with unruly off-leash dogs, then a Laika just might be for you!
"Job is everything from obedience to therapy to hunting to guarding."
I totally agree.
I do not think that Koda hiking with me is a "job", but it is where we work together and he is confident. It's an outlet for his puppy curiosity to prevail and he is happiest getting energy out at his own pace. It's really good for the two of us to be alone in the hills, on the trails, in the trees. He loves it, and it's when we are the closest to eachother. It helps us to bond and build trust. He will go wherever I want him to and climb rocks that must seem large to him. His fears aren't apparent like they are in other situations.
I agree, I think in Europe they are breeding a lot more for show. I noticed in North America, especially Canada, they are using KBD's more for work. A bunch of the northern and western state wildlife agencies are trying to incorporate more KBD's/REL's into their workforce.
One dog I have seen used for hunting still was one in Mongolia.. but now I can't recall off the top of my head which that was.. hmm....
----This is the type of thing I want for the Kai and/or Shikoku. They are starting to use Kai in Japan for Raccoon control.
I have chatted with several KBD breeders and orgs and have been toying with ideas on how we could use some of our Nihonken in programs that use KBD. First would be to test them tho, and I have been working on that front as well, but it's NOT easy to find appropriate (safe) tests for that type of work. My #1 mission has been finding a hunter with captive boar that they use to trial their hunting dogs - then trial our Nihonken in a similar manner. Or visiting an org that uses the dogs for moose / bear control and testing their reaction to those types of animals.
Jessika - When do you think you will be getting your KBD?
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As for what is "working" vs sport. I think doing any of the tasks described above can be considered "working your dog", but I don't think that means you have a "working dog". To me, a "working dog" is a dog that has been selected for it's working qualities and not it's show wins.
For example, Ahi is a GREAT "worker", but I don't consider her a "working dog". While Blue is also an amazing "worker", I do consider him a "working dog" because we got him specifically to fill a working role and he came from a kennel that selects for working temperament first (unlike Ahi).
I don't consider Kona a "working dog" either, even tho his role is very similar to Blue's.
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Sarah wrote:
The most irresponsible thing in my mind, would be to breed a fearful bitch. Now, there is a fine line defining this in a primitive (I know you hate the word, Brad) breed. What I mean by that is, these dogs have a highly developed sense of self preservation, are reactive, territorial, and aloof with strangers. That could all be wrapped up in FEAR. But, what is unacceptable to me, is a dog that CANNOT recover. These dogs need to be confident enough to make their own decisions - that is the baseline for an independent hunting breed. A dog that is spooky and checks out mentally is unacceptable. A dog that is quick to enter passive resistance and is paralyzed by fear is unacceptable.
I couldn't agree more, this is where it becomes very sticky and where a breeder really needs to know their dogs and pay attention to their females. In the past so much energy has been put on the studs of a kennel and the females have been kept out of the picture, that's a dangerous game (IMHO) when you consider how important the females personality is in the temperament of her offspring. The whole time a pup is in gestation they are subject to the stresses of the female, if you have a female that stresses easily due to the presence of another dog you can guarantee your pups will get some amount of that type of reactivity.
When you start to look at the guardian breeds, IMHO, the line between too much fear and too little defensive drive becomes very blurry. It's hard to say if a dog is a sharp and effective guardian due to a solid guardian temperament or due to just plan fear - are they guarding their yard so effectively because they are basically scared out of their mind? How can you even judge if it's fear or drive that makes them a good worker - this is where the ATTS shines, IMO.
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In a perfect world, for our program, our plan has been to select our females to be more pet friendly: low-stress, easy going, social, not fearful, and friendly. We may ATTS and/or CGC them and that's about it. Focus our female selection on being great family pets, make sure they have that temperament (like Loa).
Then select our males for the drive and working aptitude: bid them against boar in trials and really test that they have the original working drive. Only breed the ones that pass our boar trials and ATTS tests. Our thought was, this would help to produce a nice range of temperaments in our program allowing us to place the "pet" temperament dogs with active pet owners and the "working" temperament dogs with hunters, avid outdoorsman, or working dog homes (like S&R, sports).
The lower anxiety level of the females would help keep them stress-free during pregnancy and produce pups that were easier socialized, biddable, and confident (due to lower stress levels). The lower anxiety levels of the females as well as a lower stress pregnancy mixed with the high-drive males (our hope) would produce a balanced high-drive to medium-drive pup. Time will tell I guess.
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Growing up partly on a breeding farm, I never remember sending out pics of the mothers or many people caring about our breeding bitches as much as we heard about our studs. I totally agree Brad. They stole the show and overshadowed the importance of the mother in prospective buyers.
Not only is the pup affected while the mother is pregnant (which I agree with), but also when the pup is born. A pup's healthy development during the first couple months is built on the foundation of parental protection and support from their mother not the stud. A mother becomes less available to their pup while coping with fear and stress and worrying about her surroundings. This puts a strain on the mother/pup relationship which will be the foundation for any and all future relationships. Puppies who do not have a good bond with their mother, will grow up to be dogs who have strained relationships with the outside world in general, thus fear and anxiety.
As for boar trials.. I hope you don't mean anything like boar baiting. In areas where boar is still hunted by dogs (not baiting), many times the dogs do have special equipment like kevlar vests etc to protect them against boar. Those things are ABLE animals and even lions in Africa don't like to attack a grown female boar. Those things can and do kill. What would boar trials entail?
But...
What do you think Shikoku and Kai (and Kishu and Hokka) were used for? They didn't have Kevlar vests on when baying boar in the 1700s/1800s(/1900s or even today). Ask Jin or Shigeru if they put Kevlar vests on their Nihonken when they hunt boar.
THAT is where the temperament of these dogs is important, and THAT is what they were designed for - fearless, quick reflexes (reactive), tenacious temperaments is what it took to bay boar.
I'm not saying all Shikoku / Kai should have that temperament (I realize that is unrealistic and dangerous to the breed), but I think some of them should still have the qualities that allow them to preform their original role. And when I speak of "original temperament" I am referring to their ability to perform the role they were originally selected for.
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As for confirmation, sure, I think it's important for the breeds to match their standards. But this is a discussion about temperament and I was describing (and asking opinions on) what I (we) feel the temperament of Nihonken should be and how I (we, you) plan to get there.
This is NOT a discussion on phenotype in general - we can open a new discussion for that, it's important too.
I think the "form follows function" argument can apply here too, a dog selected for their original working role will inevitably have the proper confirmation needed to do their job and if the standards are written correctly the end result should mirror the standards from a confirmation perspective.
It's up to the individual breeding program as to how heavily weighted they want their breeding program to be with confirmation. For me it's workability/temperament, health, and then confirmation. JMO
side note: I would like to see the above logic/plan (form follows function yielding proper confirmation) applied to the Akita, I guarantee you wouldn't end with a dog that matches the standard - same applies to the GSD, Bulldog, Neo, Dane, etc.
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I want all primitive dogs to remain primitive !
Brad- not soon enough, not soon enough! Our breeder (Grawpaws) is having a possible litter in the fall, but we will probably end up waiting for springtime.
"I have chatted with several KBD breeders and orgs and have been toying with ideas on how we could use some of our Nihonken in programs that use KBD."
I think that is freaking awesome. Getting shikas into working programs will set up conservation and protection of their temperaments and working/hunting abilities.
"If one thinks of a dog as a hunting tool or something like an utility, then injury is just something that happens."
I don't think hunters think of them as tools or utilities, more as a compadre. A lot of time and effort went into training these dogs to be good hunters. Usually there is a pack of dogs (safety in number) and no direct attacking of the animal is involved. That is illegal in most, if not all states. The dogs will corner the animal and bark for the hunter to arrive and do his job. A hunting dog's job is to track and corner, not attack (medium to large game).
Has anyone done S&R with their Shikas or Kais?
I would say they are just a really hardy dog with high endurance-that loves the outdoors and hunting- whether it be for game or persons.