Shikoku Registry?

Is there a Shikoku Registry in the United States? Is there anyone keeping track of bloodlines, accomplishments, etc. of this breed here? Is anyone thinking about starting a national club to pursue AKC recognition?

I'm on a puppy waiting list for a Kishu, and was just wondering why the Shikoku had never made it to FSS status with the AKC, when the Kishu had done so with very few dogs actually in the U.S.

Comments

  • edited November -1
    I am writing a registry app now, it will track pedigrees, health, location, titles... There are a few threads on the forum about it, my goal is to be complete by the end of the year. I am taking a new approach to tracking bloodlines and pedigrees - I plan to port it to the Kai Ken as well.

    There is a Shikoku club in the works, headed by Peggy Graham - my app will be owned by the Shikoku club.

    Then there are some of us that are not in a rush to have the Shikoku be AKC anything.

    PS: While there are more Shikoku in the US then Kishu, there have been more Kishu litters in the US than Shikoku litters (in the US). Most of the Shikoku in the US are imports from CAN or JPN.

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  • edited October 2009
    We also have the Beikoku Shikoku Ken Aikokai (BSKA), basically...we would like to establish strong breed club firstmost. Then decide later if we want to go AKC, we have discussed this. Most Shikoku owners don't want them to be AKC recognized...at least not yet. Once we've got enough membership, enough people interesting in "showcasing/performing" their dogs & we're going strong, we'll throw AKC back on the table.


    In order to be accepted into AKC as a breed club, we must have an existing breed club with the history of attending/putting on events. So far we've done the Pet Expo in California and Philadelphia. We also need to maintain our own studbooks for registy.

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    Related Past Discussions:

    - Japanese Shikoku Ken Club & Registry

    - AKC Recognition

    - Shikoku Club Biz

    - Foundation Stock Service (FSS)
  • edited October 2009
    Thanks for all the information -- I'm just getting around to reading Shikoku stuff since I've exhausted the Kishu information. (Now I know who Peggy and Katja are, though! :-) )

    Yes, you need a fairly strong breed club of some kind. So far, all I've found is the NSCA, the National Shikoku Club of America est. 2005 by Peggy Graham. Most of the pages are all under construction, though.

    FWIW, the Swedish Vallhund fraternity were in the same shoes as you all when I bought my Finn. There was tons of talk about not wanting to go AKC, much wringing of hands and anxiety about how the breed would be ruined. Now that they have full recognition, things have calmed down, and we discovered that the same ethical codes and breeding practices that the club had before, prevailed after AKC recognition. The breed has been shown, has gone to Westminister and Eukanuba, has attracted a lot of interest; most people still don't know what he is when I bring him to shows, but they're learning (and they've been recognized for a good couple of years now).

    My own selfish reason for the breed becoming at least FSS-established is purely to have a place to compete with them at AKC shows in the companion events. It may take decades for them ever to reach Miscellaneous status, and that's fine with me. I just want to be able to do AKC agility, obedience, rally and tracking. Yes, we can and will do NADAC agility, and yes we could do UKC but UKC shows are not handy for me to get to. If the Shikoku were ever to gain FSS status, I would seriously consider that for my next dog; in fact, a strong reason why I chose the Kishu was because he already has that status.

    "Once we've got enough membership, enough people interesting in "showcasing/performing" their dogs & we're going strong, we'll throw AKC back on the table."

    Kind of ironic, no? to suggest that we "perform" with our dogs and THEN consider the AKC issue, where I'm saying I can't do many performance events without it....
  • edited November -1
    One more quick point before they fire me here at work: nothing says the breed has to progress to Miscellaneous classes if it gains FSS status. The breed club has to apply for that, I think, and the numbers have to be there -- but I haven't read about any absolute requirement to move from FSS to Miscellaneous status, and then on to breed recognition. A breed could conceivably remain an FSS breed for years, allowing it to grow slowly, but allowing us performance-minded folks the chance to work them.

    The best of all possible worlds, no? :)
  • edited November -1
    There are those that believe any involvement with the AKC is the quickest path to destruction of a breed. I know not everybody shares that view (and, to be honest, I don't know enough to have a real opinion), but I wonder what is gained by AKC FSS recognition. If all it buys is the ability to compete in AKC events and opens the door to full recognition, the potential for a significant growth in popularity of the breed seems like a high price to pay.

    I personally like that it is difficult to get a Shikoku. I like that the few breeders out there have waiting lists and can be very picky about who they place puppies with.

    There are hundreds of other dog breeds that are already ruined by the AKC. If AKC competition is really your prime motivation for selecting a breed, why not go with one of them?
  • edited November -1
    Well, Dave, I wish I could come up with a good solid reason to choose AKC recognition. You are right, I think, that it will inevitably increase popularity, but the AKC doesn't ruin breeds, bad breeders ruin breeds who don't pay attention to health or temperament or structure. I can see this breed exploited because of its wolf-like appearance, however, and there is a very real danger of temperaments going downhill given the basic nature of the beast to begin with. It doesn't take very long for high-drive, skittish dogs to be bred into basket cases. Working-line, hyper Malinois come to mind.

    If the goal is to keep numbers low, and no one is in any danger of breeding themselves into a corner with insufficient fresh stock to keep the gene pool alive and healthy, then there isn't much reason to go the AKC route. If it remains easy to import from Japan or other countries and the few existing breeders have the willingness and funds to do so, there won't be a problem, but I know in Vallhunds individual breeders have imported a few studs, bred them to every bitch in their kennel, and now where do they go? Greater numbers provide a greater diversity in the gene pool from which to choose.

    I could choose any number of breeds to do AKC competition with. I would like to see what I can do with THIS breed, because I think it's a handsome, beautiful animal that I'd enjoy looking at the same way everyone else who wants one. Plus I get a companion for 13-14 years who I can work with and play with and get inside its head to train.
  • edited October 2009
    This discussion seems to have moved to a new thread. Cross posted here for continuity.

    I'll respond real quick to say you are right, it isn't the AKC that ruins breeds. It is bad breeders. But bad breeding practices seem to correlate highly with AKC recognition.

    Also, the goals of Shikoku enthusiasts (as I understand them) is not necessarily to keep the number low, but to grow them responsibly and without influence from external factors. By influence from external factors, I mean any arbitrary guidelines set by governing bodies like the AKC that aren't sensitive to the special needs of limited populations like the Shikoku. Further, it my sincere hope that breeders work solely toward creating a vibrant and healthy gene pool while remaining true to intended purpose of the Shikoku (hunting). No more, not less. Breeding simply to meet demand is not a responsible practice for any breed, but especially not for the nihon ken with their unique temperaments and the requirements they put on their owners. If it were up to me, the Shikoku would never be shown in traditional confirmation shows. They would be evaluated solely on prey drive and other hunting instincts with only a minor nod to form. As Corina likes to point out, form and function are tightly intertwined.
  • edited November -1
    Hey, I like those working line, hyper Malinois :) .


    They may be obsessive complusive in behavior with insisting on carrying something in their mouth, but yes...they do have an "off" switch.

    They prefer to be housepets and apart of the family. Malinois become neurotic when left predominantly in kennels, this provokes boredom and bad habits. There are many pedigree lines with their own personal traits attached, but generally it's just a "management issue".
  • edited November -1
    "They prefer to be housepets and apart of the family. Malinois become neurotic when left predominantly in kennels, this provokes boredom and bad habits. There are many pedigree lines with their own personal traits attached, but generally it's just a "management issue"."

    I think this can be applied to any breed of dog that isn't stimulated enough to keep them from chewing on the couch/rug/wall.
  • edited November -1
    Health and function should be the first priority. I recently saw a documentary from the BBC about the Crufts in the UK. There are complete deformed and sick dogs winning the show, since some people seems to like some peculiarities who seem completely unnatural. The Rhodesian Ridgeback will win the show if the deformity is the most. Some dogs have such small skulls that on adult age their brains don't even fit in anymore. Boxers become epileptics due to bad breeding skills. The breeding clubs know all about this and continue to do so. Let's protect the Shikoku ken for this practice. Let's breed for perfection in skills, health and function. Healthy dogs are beautiful anyway. So keeping the numbers low is not the goal, but keeping the low numbers in perfect health should be. The question remains, if the Shikoku ken would be part of AKC or any equivalent, would it help the dogs or would it help just some of us?
  • edited November -1
    I agree, Reno&Rico. I hope the Shikoku population in North America doesn't bottleneck, as I believe a great many issues in breeds arise out of poor breeding choices (breeder convenience, demand, etc) and inbreeding (creating the sick, deformed).
  • edited November -1
    Right now, there is a high risk for a "bottleneck", since the gene pool is kind of extremely small. Not enough variety, which raises the risk for inbreeding. And so it may generate new shikoku ken going away to far from he original which can be very difficult to reverse. In this way certain health issues may become problematic. However, we cannot call this a bottleneck. The population is simply too small. Even the Japanese population is kind of very small to have this happen. A "bottleneck" needs several generations, where the complications happen before the dogs can reproduce. Than a genetic adaption could happen to adjust for the new circumstances. But again, how many shikoku ken are there actually in the US. Is it around 20 or so? And most come from pretty much the same bloodlines. So it is a real challenge to keep all under control in the best way possible.
  • edited November -1
    Tough dilemma. Too few dogs to breed from and to; pretty soon in any given population there are no dogs left that are unrelated, unless you keep going back to the mother country for more imports. AKC recognition won't fix that dilemma, I agree. AKC recognition will just flood the market with more dogs, of good or poor quality, to increase the numbers. Those breeders who are ethical will try to find the best dogs, keep their health, and breed for type, stable temperament, the instinct to hunt. The worst breeders will just willy-nilly import as many dogs as they can and breed as fast as they can with no regard for health checks. Some dogs will be fine assuming the gene pool has mostly healthy dogs in it; some few might have problems.

    I couldn't venture to say how many GOOD American breeders were appalled at that Crufts documentary -- but I'm sure there was a high percentage. I think the United Kingdom is in even worse shape than America in that it is a much smaller country and with the rabies quarantine, importing dogs and thus new blood was much more difficult, although that is changing (I think) and of course we now have frozen or chilled semen. I had a Ridgeback once and I have a vague recollection that the entire discussion about "culling" ridgeless puppies finally evolved to "culling out of the gene pool," i.e., selling them as neutered/spayed pets because of course they were perfectly happy healthy dogs.

    After I saw the Crufts documentary, I went looking at various American websites of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels out of curiosity, and most had links to the long list of health problems in this breed including the syringa/skull problem and at least paid lip service to those people doing research on their heart problems and the researchers in England working on syringiamyelia (sp?). The breed is indeed a travesty, but they would be in so much better shape if a breeding pair were aged 5 or so before they produced pups. Many of their health problems would show up by then, and hopefully the most scrupulous breeders would not breed the defective ones. There ARE Cavaliers who have been MRI'd clear, and I think there ARE some (maybe a very few) that don't have heart murmurs.

    In fact, waiting until age 4 or 5 or so to breed is a good idea for any breed. By then you know what your dog's temperament is like, whether any allergies are showing up, whether the dog is trainable and biddable and structurally sound (xrays and cerfs have been taken and done by then). My Vallhund and his mate were both 5 years old for their first and only breeding, and she produced a large litter (large for Vallhunds) of six healthy babies, with absolutely no trouble. It can be done. What do you know about a 2 year old dog, not even fully mature yet? Most club Codes of Ethics suggest a dog not be bred before age 2, but I think waiting longer is a better idea.
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