AKC Recognition?
The topic has come up several times in other posts, & even in a thread of it's own a LONG time ago. But that was then, & this is now. We have a ton of new members so I'd like to see a "fresh" perspective.
In the USA, of our 6 Nihon Ken, the Akita & Shiba are already recognized & sorted into classes in the AKC.
So the question remaining is, would you like to see the four remaining nihon ken, [ Shikoku, Kai, Kishu, Hokkaido ] registered in the AKC? [ in competitions,stud services, etc. ]
If yes, why?
If no, why?
[ note; I'd like to keep this discussion geared towards the AKC in the U.S. specifically, & not other clubs. Thanks
] ~
In the USA, of our 6 Nihon Ken, the Akita & Shiba are already recognized & sorted into classes in the AKC.
So the question remaining is, would you like to see the four remaining nihon ken, [ Shikoku, Kai, Kishu, Hokkaido ] registered in the AKC? [ in competitions,stud services, etc. ]
If yes, why?
If no, why?
[ note; I'd like to keep this discussion geared towards the AKC in the U.S. specifically, & not other clubs. Thanks
] ~
Comments
I don't want to see that happen to these breeds.
The Kishu and the Kai already have FSS recognition. Let's look at those as examples. The Kishu is still basically an unknown breed. There is only one breeder we know of in the US that produces Kishu. The Kai, on the other hand, is comparatively much more popular. There are at least four Kai breeders in the U.S. And what is the result? We have Kai occasionally popping up in shelters and on pet finder. Very bad IMO.
The Shikoku, at this point, has one breeder in the U.S. There is another that has attempted a breeding and the results aren't known yet. There are at least two more that have announced intentions to breed Shikoku. This forum has created a sizable population of people that have professed a desire to own a Shikoku in the future. You take these indicators together and I believe the Shikoku will be destined to the same fate as most AKC breeds. Over population, shelters, and poor breeding practices.
I guess my argument is this. The Shikoku is gaining enough popularity right now without a functioning breed club or any AKC involvement. We would be poor stewards of the breed in the U.S. if we pushed for additional avenues that would increase the popularity of the breed. The Kai, IMO, is on the brink right now. I see the Shikoku going past that brink if people like us aren't extremely careful about how things proceed in the next 5-10 years.
For Kai, I am hoping that we are actually on the upswing as far as responsible breeding is concerned. There are 7 Kai breeders in the US that I know of currently. There are probably around 10+ retired breeders from the late 90's and that is when I think most of the questionable breeding practices started.
I truly believe in the power of forums such as these. I have seen Kai breeders brought to the mat and questioned about their breeding dogs' temperments and when a Kai is found on petfinder or in a shelter the first thing they do is try and locate the breeder and yes sometimes call it out on a forum. It's a relatively small and quiet community, but we hear when one of our kai's is having an issue. Yes, there are too many in shelters. Yes, there are too many percentage wise that are being re-homed, but I don't think that we are having the BYB situation that we were even 6 years ago. For Kai, it may be inevitable that they join the AKC but as of now I haven't heard anyone pushing for it and I'm glad for that.
AKC registered or not, I will always love my Kai and will always have a home for one.
I would only want FSS/Misc status, at most, so that it would allow me to MORE easily do things like tracking, hunt trials, agility, lure, etc with approved clubs that follow certain safety guidelines and rules and have certain regulations that have to be adhered to. Also, the training knowledge obtained at trials is very valuable. If the 4 other Nihonken did not have FSS or Misc status, they could still do all of these things, the owners would just have to be very choosey and search harder to find these things-go to UKC or have privately hosted events, which is equally fine with me because I don't care about the prizes, but safety and fun are important. If winning prizes/titles is a motivator to go AKC, people shouldn't have these breeds, IMO.
Not wanting to put the cart before the horse, there needs to be a very excellent breed club established that hosts it's own events, has a code of ethics, etc, so going AKC hopefully would never "have" to happen. Honestly, it would be sad to see that even though I think there are many good people in AKC.
Like Dave said, the popularity that these breeds have even in a very small population of people present on this forum will indeed create "Over population, shelters, and poor breeding practices." and fast, I think some of that statement is already happening.
Not every event has to be AKC sponsored/titled or even breed specific. I've already found lure coursing TRIALS that are not breed specific that I can run my shelter dog in as a trial, not just practice, if she proves herself in prey drive.
And not every breed should be AKC/UKC/etc recognized for the show - then the standard appearance takes precedent over purpose, health/temperament soundness and workability. If selection for certain looks has never been a real factor in a breed's development, they can be selected mainly for hunting or work ability, herding ability, etc (ie, original purpose!). As a result, the appearance standard is extremely flexible. The resultant diversity in appearance and selection for physical ability result in breeds that tend to be genetically sound and healthy, not just pretty, powdered and ring-shown/titled.
And, these breeds are Japanese hunting breeds. Bring in the AKC and you might take the hunter out of the dog - though, maybe thats what some people want. Lacking hunting instinct makes for better pets.
It seems to me that when a breed obtains AKC registration (please know that this is a generalized opinion), that the breed is more subject to over population, bad breeding, and higher possibility of ending up in rescue. While this may not happen over night, it seems to inevitably happen within a few years.
The six Nihon Ken breeds, IMHO, are treasures. They should be respected for what they are (temperament, physical structure, etc.) and breed to enhance these features. For me, I would much rather be on a wait list for a Hokkaido for 10 years and get a well bred puppy by a VERY knowledgeable breeder than be able to find a dime a dozen breeder and be able to take home a pup in a few weeks/months.
I don't think I want to subject Aki to AKC standards. I probably won't register her with AKC.
It isn't the AKC that ruins breeds. It is bad breeders. But bad breeding practices seem to correlate highly with AKC recognition.
Also, the goals of Shikoku enthusiasts (as I understand them) is not necessarily to keep the number low, but to grow them responsibly and without influence from external factors. By influence from external factors, I mean any arbitrary guidelines set by governing bodies like the AKC that aren't sensitive to the special needs of limited populations like the Shikoku. Further, it my sincere hope that breeders work solely toward creating a vibrant and healthy gene pool while remaining true to intended purpose of the Shikoku (hunting). No more, not less. Breeding simply to meet demand is not a responsible practice for any breed, but especially not for the nihon ken with their unique temperaments and the requirements they put on their owners. If it were up to me, the Shikoku would never be shown in traditional confirmation shows. They would be evaluated solely on prey drive and other hunting instincts with only a minor nod to form. As Corina likes to point out, form and function are tightly intertwined.
AKC really does bring up the popularity of a breed, there are people who feel that it's not a breed unless it's AKC recognized.
A little OT, but did you know that you can compete in conformation with a mixed breed dog. Mixed Breed Dog Clubs of America (MBDCA) offers " the thrill of competing for titles in obedience, conformation, tracking and much more." Dogs that are eligible to register are "neutered or spayed mixed breed dogs, and purebred dogs ineligible to compete in national kennel registries." Which is great for people with non-AKC recognized breeds, or dogs with unknown lineage. This club is also the one that proposed that the AKC allow mixed breeds to compete in companion events. I thought this was pretty cool.
I would like to think that "conformation" of mixed breeds would be a criterion of healthy overall canine structure, but even Kennel Club standards can completely disregard health traits.
Does mixed breed mean dogs of two purebred parents (ie labradoodles, puggles), or does mixed breed mean random bred mongrel dogs with mongrel parents too?
Mongrels should be able to be included in any skill-based activity- agility, lure coursnig, tracking. etc. There are "mixed breeds" like Border Jacks in flyball.
Curious.
edited to answer my question:
"Technically, a Mixed Breed is the offspring of two different purebreds. The mating of a purebred and a mixed breed results in a litter on Mongrels. And, if both parents are either mixed breeds or mongrels, the pups are Mutts.
But none of this is important. It's the dog's inner self that we love, not the length of his coat or the caliber of his pedigree.
Whether you call your dog a mixed breed, mongrel, or mutt, you're welcome in the Mixed Breed Dog Clubs of America."
and
The conformation standard is designed to promote a happy, healthy family dog, and focuses on general soundness and balance, as well as excellent temperament and manners. Any dog working toward a championship must achieve the MB-CD obedience title before receiving more than half the points needed for the title. MBDCA champions are required to have brains as well as beauty.
Something I wish was more of a requirement in AKC conformation. There are too many dogs that get shown that don't do much else than see the show ring or wait in the house/kennel for the next show. I know that there are quite a few breeders that do other events with their dogs, but there are just as many or more that only care about getting best in show.
I will add that my opinion is formed through more second-hand knowledge than first-hand.
I voted no as well, at this point in time, there are 20 no's & 4 yes's....Come on you "yes's" we want to hear what you have to say!
I cant think of ne reasons why I would want these 4 breeds to be recognized...so I'd love to hear a different perspective. ~
have actually worked with AKC.
At some of the AKC sanctioned matches I have been to with the dogs, there has been a Phydeux class
For the mixed breeds to show in conformation.
There are a couple of problems with this. You can evaluate prey drive, maybe, but how do you evaluate hunting instincts in most of North America where there are no boars or pigs to hunt? Do like the Japanese do (or did) and get a caged boar so that the dogs can run around barking at him? The animal rights people would be on your case like a chicken on a June bug. Terriers can go to earthdog tests to evaluate their tenacity and instincts in going down a hole or channel to "worry" the prey at the end -- a rat or some such in a secure cage. But what do you do for boar hunters?
Do you get your dogs ONLY from those down south who hunt boar? You're sort of in the same boat as Rhodesian Ridgebacks -- how to you "preserve" their lion-keeping-at-bay capabilities? There are many breeds that no longer do what they originally did, nor can they be tested for it. It's nice to pay lip service to keeping the dogs' original purpose in mind, but we can't. Do Norwegian Elkhounds still hunt elk and moose? Can Irish Wolfhounds be tested for their wolf-killing skills?
But let's say you hypothetically only bred from those down south that actually hunted boar. Without some kind of evaluation of type, which means the "look" that one breed has which makes it look distinctly different from another breed, that boar hunter could look like anything. Pretty soon you lose that long, lean face and slanted eyes because they aren't important in the cornering of a wild pig. Pretty soon your beautiful Shikoku looks sort of like any other husky/Spitz type dog. That's where conformation judging comes in. No, the judges don't have to be AKC judges, they could be from Japan, but you can't just decide to never have the dog evaluated.
I remember falling in love with akitas when I was pretty young. My experience meeting an akita was a good example of someone who probably shouldn't have the breed if not dogs in general...but basically I lived across the street from my elementary school...so we used to run over there to play at the playground. A man who lived next to the school had a black brindle akita. The akita was left outside (which didn't really seem to bother him) but it also seems he was left alone much of the time and I never saw him actually walked by his owner.
He would escape the yard almost daily and wander the neighborhood looking for something to do. He was not aggressive but was aloof and would for the most part just give you a calm glance as he went around finding nice sticks and patrolling the neighborhood (and its rather busy streets). I remember going home and telling my grandparents all about the bear I saw. (Yeah...the first time I saw a great dane I told them all about the horse I met...*sigh*)
Okay long unecessary intro out of the way lol when I was a bit older and really starting to get into reading about dogs, I tried to figure out what that dog was. I probably wouldn't have learned about akitas without the AKC. Sure it wasn't as complete as it could be. I didn't really understand the difference between AA and JA until much later when I started seeing the Crufts shows they aired on Animal Planet...where JAs and AAs are classified separately. But almost all of the available/reliable information in my area (before I had internet access and we were all zooming around and able to have these awesome discussions on the forum hehe) was related to the AKC.
The AKC website is also where I first learned about what to look for in a good breeder (even if they don't enforce responsible breeding, themselves), and it is how I found the shiba rescue in my area that was taking care of my Ki.
I find everything you are saying about breeding and the danger of breed popularity to be incredibly valid. And because I'm learning these things here (thank you), I can't say "Yeah! Woot! Let's go AKC!" But I can say that having that information available about a breed can help responsible people find the right dog or care for their dog in a better way.
I do wish there was more love for the crosses/mongrels/mutts/whateveryouwanttocallthem. No, ideally there wouldn't be stray dogs making stray dogs...or neighbors with bad fences...or...whatever, but when you have a mutt (or better, when you adopt a mutt!) it's hard not to feel incredibly excluded when it comes to many dog and dog-people events. I know that non-pedigree but pure dogs can still participate in some things in certain ways in the AKC but supporting standards/purity to the point of turning up your nose at the innocent outcome of unsupported breeding has the same stink as breed-specific laws that target a breed instead of the people abusing the breed.
Rant over! But there are my thoughts on why the AKC can be a good thing for a breed...along with lots of other random stuff lol
1) The AKC is primarily a registration service and a highly effective one that no one questions. It can keep track of registration numbers, health checks, pedigrees, titles. It is unrealistic to expect any one person to establish and maintain a database that can do this. Maybe now, but not later when the numbers are larger. Who gives one person the authority to keep total records on a breed and not screw something up? Who has the time to do it? Who wants to put the effort into doing this? It's not realistic. The AKC provides structure and organization for the parent club which it DOES listen to, btw. It will provide the template for an effective written standard that is understood across the country -- but that standard comes from the parent club, the breeders, NOT from the AKC.
2) If there ever was a breed destined to be banned via Breed Specific Legislation, it would be the Shikoku with its wolf-like appearance. The AKC provides protection because it is the most highly respected and recognized and listened to dog registry organization in this country, it has a cadre of lawyers willing to fight such legislation and other issues as they come up in each state.
3) The AKC provides shows and trials and activities all across the country. While there are other organizations and events, they are sporadic and spotty and often concentrated in one area.
4) There is nothing to prevent John Doe from importing dogs from Japan and starting his own breeding line. This is true whether the breed is AKC-recognized or not. The AKC will not slow John Doe, nor prevent him from making a large profit on this very rare breed or breeds.
5) I voted Yes for AKC recognition at least to the FSS level, and here's why. If you don't, there will eventually be enough people in the breed who want to go AKC that they will start their own club which the AKC will then recognize as the parent club. It doesn't matter that YOU were first, that you established the groundwork for getting whatever breed into this country. There will be vicious fighting between the two clubs and lots of hot air and hurt feelings and bitterness. But the other club will prevail because it states in its purpose that it is working towards AKC recognition. Because it has the sanction of the AKC, any other group, no matter how diligent and staunch, will eventually die out. It's gone this way for many a breed. You may as well bite the bullet now. The thing is, if you do, you maintain control. You become the parent club who then VOTES to NOT pursue further steps to Miscellaneous, but you are in control. You can take your time, get established, get organized, maintain a list of breeders who you trust to maintain ethical breeding practices, keep the numbers steady, whatever. The AKC does not force you as a club to proceed on to the next step towards full AKC recognition. But if you don't get a foot in the door, some other group will roll right over you and take over. It might not happen in 5 years or in a decade, but I firmly believe that eventually, the Shikoku and Hokkaido will go the way of the Kai and Kishu.
Just one question. What do you mean they will go the way of the Kai and Kishu? Which way did they go?
You omitted a key part of my statement: "If it were up to me, the Shikoku would never be shown in traditional confirmation shows." Turns out it's not solely up to me. It's up to everyone in the community. It's also up to animal rights activists as you say; however, I will point out that there are many breeds of dog for which there are hunting trials sponsored by breed clubs. For example, there are bird dog field trials. This provides a venue to evaluate dogs on their workability, giving a minor nod to type conformation (e.g. posture doing a point for pointers, etc.).
You said: "It's nice to pay lip service to keeping the dogs' original purpose in mind, but we can't." I think that's an awfully bold claim to be making. I'm not sure how you can be so sure it's not possible to preserve a breed's original intent. The Shikoku (and really all of the shikas for that matter) are boar hunters. We have a LARGE boar problem in the U.S. It has even been termed an "ecological disaster." Why can't the shikas be evaluated solely in field trials like those for bird dogs? Not only will we be able to remain true to the breed, but we can help control an ecological problem in the process. I'd also like to point out that boars aren't only hunted in the south. They are believed to inhabit 40 U.S. states.
You said: "Pretty soon you lose that long, lean face and slanted eyes because they aren't important in the cornering of a wild pig. Pretty soon your beautiful Shikoku looks sort of like any other husky/Spitz type dog." My response: So what? A special purpose breed should not be evaluated on looks. It should be evaluated on ability---the ability to perform the job it was bred to perform. If selecting for more bravery, or shorter ears to avoid injury during a hunt creates a better hunter, then we are doing the breed a service---NOT a disservice. Yes, it is true that form and function are intertwined. But you said yourself that those characteristics aren't important in the cornering of wild pig. So I ask, why should we care about them? Hunters certainly wont. I can just about guarantee you the dogs wont.
It seems like you are arguing for turning the Shikoku into a house pet. I'm explicitly arguing against that. Shikokus are not companion dogs. They are working dogs and I believe should be respected as such. Dedicated hunters are not going to care about conformation titles. They will probably care about field titles. And ultimately workability. Tell me how AKC recognition helps attract hunters and effect coordination of field trials and I'll listen. But from where I sit, AKC is a registry for house pets.
Now, to refute your next five points:
1) "It is unrealistic to expect any one person to establish and maintain a database that can do this." I think you are making a baseless claim here. It IS realistic for someone to do this. In fact, someone *IS* already doing this. It's amazing what computers can do these days. It turns out there is very little to do beyond the initial development. After that, it basically runs itself. The AKC does not add value as a registry if the exact functions they provide can be replicated by the breed club---which they can. Further, the breed club will have unrestricted access to *ALL* the data in the registry enabling them to do analysis of trends that probably can't be done with AKC summaries. If you did want to make a legit argument here, then you should be pointing out that the AKC gives you international legitimacy. I can't argue against that. But, there are other options that don't seem to have the same drawbacks of the AKC.
2) "If there ever was a breed destined to be banned via Breed Specific Legislation, it would be the Shikoku with its wolf-like appearance." Again, another baseless claim. There are many breeds that look far more wolf-like than the Shikoku. I cite the Tamaskan as a prime example. In fact, the Tamaskan as well as others are bred explicitly to look like wolves. You do have a point regarding AKC lawyers; however, the BSL problem only becomes a problem when breeds become too popular and shady or backyard breeders place dogs in ill-suited homes. I prefer to avoid the need for lawyers by keeping the breed off the radar screen of potentially bad breeders and bad owners. A strong breed club with strong participation from breeders is the first line of defense.
3) "The AKC provides shows and trials and activities all across the country." True, but I personally don't care. I'm more than willing to allow the breed lose a small percentage of possible owners because they care too much about obedience or conformation titles for their dogs to get a dog that can't participate in AKC sanctioned events. Sucks for you, not for me or the vast majority of other enthusiasts out there. Also, if by limiting the visibility of the breed we prevent the vast majority of bad homes for the dogs from obtaining them and a side effect is that a few potentially great homes don't get a dog, I'm very much alright with that. (Time for one of my infamous math lessons!) In machine learning, there is this notion of "false positive" and "false negative". Google is able to be effective at search for this reason: the rate of "false negatives" doesn't matter so long as the rate of "false positives" is really low. In practical terms, this means that Google doesn't have to find all the pages that contain the information you are looking for, as long as it finds a few of them and doesn't find any pages that don't contain the information you are looking for. I view responsible stewardship of a dog breed like the Shikoku to be exactly the same. Placing puppies in poor homes is like a "false positive" and not-placing puppies in good homes is like a "false negative". I don't care how many good homes we exclude from the Shikoku community as long as none of the homes we include are bad ones. (End of math lesson. :-))
4) "There is nothing to prevent John Doe from importing dogs from Japan and starting his own breeding line. This is true whether the breed is AKC-recognized or not. The AKC will not slow John Doe, nor prevent him from making a large profit on this very rare breed or breeds." This is true. But I don't see how this makes AKC recognition more attractive. It's not really an argument for or against it. In fact, I think you've pointed out that AKC recognition will likely make more John Doe-types interested in the breed which may hasten the need for a strong breed club to deal with that issue. I think you are actually supporting my position here, not yours.
5) "there will eventually be enough people in the breed who want to go AKC that they will start their own club which the AKC will then recognize as the parent club." I hate to admit it, but this is closest thing to a legit point you've made so far. In fact, I already see this on the horizon with Peggy's Shikoku Club of America and Corina's BSKA (or whatever it's called). As a spectator from the sidelines, I hope it gets resolved really quickly. I will point out there are a plethora of ways to combat the issue you bring up though. Joining AKC is not the only way to avoid a power struggle. A breed club's strength is not just a function of participation, but also visibility. I'll admit this is my weakest counter-argument to any of your points. But I don't think it's quite as black and white as you are making it out to seem.
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@Rainy: I'm kinda all argued out at this point, but I will say you've an interesting point. I think my math lesson above on false positive vs. false negative basically explains my response though.
Sounds like a smaller community with Peggy and Brad's database would be more effective.....
Hey, you asked those of us who voted yes to explain why we did. I wasn't starting an argument. I can see why maybe the OTHER 3 of us won't say anything if we get bombarded. You asked us for our opinions and I gave it. If I'm in the minority, it won't be the first time, and I'm not afraid to be in that boat.
I can't stay on-line for long here at work, but here's a point or two, more later. Tara, the Shiba in the pet store window was sold to that pet store by an unethical breeder for whom there is no excuse. That sort of thing is expressly frowned upon by any Code of Ethics I've ever seen, by any parent or breed club. Yes, it happens. Blame that breeder, not the AKC.
There is no way that the animal rights people will allow dogs to go after wild boar, no matter where they are. They are already making noises about bird trials, fox hunting is no longer allowed -- there is no way except to go underground to do it. That makes it illegal. So ultimately if you can't do that, you can't test their hunting instincts very easily. How many owners are going to do that anyway, even if it WERE legal?
"A special purpose breed should not be evaluated on looks." Good grief, Dave. What is the whole point of having a purebred dog if it no longer looks like the breed because it hunts super well? Let's just breed the Shikoku with the Kishu and get pintos and forget the whole breed thing -- or breed them to Great Danes -- we'd have a better chance of killing the boar with a larger dog, no? We breed dogs of the same breed to preserve those qualities that are an integral part of them, both in function AND looks. How about breeding a dog to a standard for that breed, keeping in mind BOTH form and function?
Personally I don't see how placing puppies in homes that will work with them in the only avenues we have to work them if we don't/can't hunt wild boar, is a negative thing.
Secondly, you say Tara, the Shiba in the pet store window was sold to that pet store by an unethical breeder for whom there is no excuse. That sort of thing is expressly frowned upon by any Code of Ethics I've ever seen, by any parent or breed club. Yes, it happens. Blame that breeder, not the AKC.
I agree with you. It is an unethical breeder, but that breeder gets motivation due to the popularity of AKC recognized breeds and the AKC doesn't regulate breeders according to their own Code of Ethics. With power comes responsibility, and I believe that the AKC has not proven themselves responsible. I would also agree with what will probably be your next argument that they simply don't have the manpower to regulate everyone. No they don't. So, until they do I want our dogs protected from what side effects come with AKC recognition which is mainly poor breeding practices.
In my home is not only a Kai, but a national treasure for Japanese. In respecting their culture and beliefs, I feel the need to protect the Kai from irresponsible US breeding practices.
Marion, as the lone "yes" poster did NOT "point by point" take down everyone else's arguments. But Dave, as a "no" poster took her down point by point. I will not be surprised if no other "yes" voters post now...
Back to my lurkerdom.
First of all, ditto to what Tara said. You should feel comfortable expressing your views here. I wasn't attacking you. You said a lot, most of which I disagreed with, so I responded. It's a discussion or a spirited debate. Not an argument. I'm sorry if you felt bombarded.
That being said, I (unsurprisingly for those that know me) have a response or two:
"Blame that breeder, not the AKC." I'll basically reiterate what Tara said. I do blame the breeder. I know it isn't the AKC's fault. I never said it was. What I did say was that AKC recognition attracts the type of breeder we want to stay away from. In this case, the AKC is a victim of their popularity. We don't want popularity because of all the things that go with it. Therefore we don't want the AKC.
"There is no way that the animal rights people will allow dogs to go after wild boar, no matter where they are." This is objectively false. Do a little research. Wild boar are hunted with dogs in at least two states that I know of off the top of my head and I haven't put any effort into finding which states allow it or don't. As far as I know it's legal to hunt wild board in season with dogs in all 50 states.
"What is the whole point of having a purebred dog if it no longer looks like the breed because it hunts super well?" We've had this debate on the forum before. Selecting for looks, from an evolutionary standpoint, is just as arbitrary as selecting for workability. In this case, the point of having a pure-bred dog is to protect and maintain a breed of dog that was created to hunt wild boar. What they look like is a side-effect of that purpose. There are many dogs where specific physical attributes were selected for because they enhanced the ability of the dog to perform their function. For example, the bloodhound has large floppy ears to help collect scent and keep it in the vicinity of the nose. If the shikas have a list of physical characteristics that help them do their job, then I'm all for them being a prominent part of the standard and breeding selection process. I have yet to come across that list though. Yes, there is a standard. Yes it lists physical characteristics. But those are a post hoc justification of the breed rather than a priori desiderata. Why keep Shikoku separate from Kishu or Great Danes? The answer is the same. The Shikoku fills a certain hunting need, as does the Kishu. Their characteristics were refined over many generations in isolated regions of Japan to fit the needs of locals. As enthusiasts, we have a responsibility to remain true to those characteristics and help to preserve the breed.
Lastly, "Personally I don't see how placing puppies in homes that will work with them in the only avenues we have to work them if we don't/can't hunt wild boar, is a negative thing." Like I said before, we can hunt wild boar in the U.S. But that's besides the point. I'm not against people working their dogs in obedience. It's fun for owner and handler. I say go for it. In fact, if I were breeding and I had a potential owner that liked to compete with their dogs, they would be given increased priority on my waiting list. It shows a certain dedication to the dog. What I am against is the increased breed attention that comes specifically from AKC recognition. If you can compete in AKC events without AKC breed recognition go for it. Otherwise, compete your dog in events sponsored by other groups.
Let's be honest here. We're talking about your desire to compete in AKC sanctioned events. Honestly, I'm not willing to risk the problems that seem highly correlated with AKC recognition just for your convenience. Drive a few more hours to non-AKC events, or get another breed of dog.
Is there no way to test the hunting instinct of a hunting breed than to chase (and possibly kill) a live animal? And why does it have to be boar, weren't they also used for hunting other game? For the most part, these are baying breeds, right? So they don't actually perform the kill, right? Why can't we have some guy dressed in a boar outfit running around, smelling of boar and acting as if he were one. Under that outfit could be protective gear to prevent injury from bites, and he can 'attack' the dogs like a boar would but it would be in a safe, controlled way. Plus, wouldn't it be funny watching some guy run around like an idiot in a boar costume.
Marion, your #5 is a good idea, but that's not going to stop people from taking a shika/kai/whatever, and just giving it a different name. I'm reminded of the history of the Tamaskan and Utonagan (sp?). They both started out as one breed with one club, but then there were differences and arguments. Some people wanted the dog to be more this while others wanted the dog to be more that. Eventually, the group split and the one breed had become two. Even if we take the group and get the Shika FSS recognized; who's to say that somewhere down the line, some people find that they don't agree that this is the way to take the breed. That they decided to form their own breed that goes more towards how they felt the Shika should go.
I think part of my issue with AKC recognition is kind of what Tara had mentioned with the pet store dog. Some people won't buy a dog unless it has AKC papers, which to them makes even a pet store dog 'better' than any breed that's no recognized by the AKC. When I was looking for a shiba there were people who were coming up to me and saying, "you should get a puppy from this pet store, they're all AKC so you know they come from good breeders." People have this thought that AKC gives the dog a higher value, which can become a great selling point for BYBs and puppy-mills.
That was not a personal attack. It was a refutation of an argument. Yes Marion posted her views, but she tried to justify her views with claims I either didn't agree with or didn't feel were supported. So I responded. Additionally, I'll point out Marion was the first to attempt to refute my views/claims. So I'll go ahead as say "she started it" :-P
Saying "I don't have a good reason, but I want AKC registration for the shikas" is perfectly acceptable IMO. There's not much I can say about that except to try to persuade you that there are good and valid reasons not to attain AKC recognition. Of course knowing myself, my persuasive attempts will look quite similar to what I've composed above.
Haven't you guys missed me?????? ;-)
Marion, that's just how Dave debates. Don't think of it as anything more than that. It might get a bit intimidating but he really does make you think which is perfect for a debate.
the math lesson hurts my left brain. or is it my right brain?
really I suppose there will become "Working lines" and "show lines" like in the other breeds. I am never going to hunt boar (deer maybe- but not with dogs), and I don't care about competing my dogs at trials, but I hope I will still be allowed to enjoy a shikoku or a kai someday when my pack is ready for one. Even though I don't compete or hunt my dogs, I DO provide an enriched environment, natural and structured activities, attention, training, love and care and a stimulating interesting life for my dogs as befits their personality and ability. Even if a dog of mine is a bit on the snarkalicious side. I think that's pretty good and dedicated. I don't want to be left out.