Testing the Boar Hunter in my Backyard
This thread bounces off the AKC Registration thread.
The question is: What kinds of tests or activities are sufficient to test a dog to see if he has the "true instincts" he was originally bred for?
Things that have been mentioned:
Lure coursing (tests prey drive, agility, speed, sight, reaction time).
Search & Rescue (tests scenting ability, perseverance, agility and maneuverability, stamina, ability to work with his handler, trainability, some prey drive, I suppose)
Hikes (tests observational abilities, reaction time, willingness to work with owner/handler, tracking ability maybe?)
There were others mentioned. None of these tests the dog's courage to go up against a wild animal that threatens it, be it bear, boar or cornered deer.
So, my question is, are these tests enough? Or even feasible? Everyone can hike, but lure coursing trials are few and far between, and there is quite a commitment to become a S&R handler -- how many people are going to do it?
Yes, it would be wonderful if a parent club would devise a field trial using parts of these tests, IF you could get agreement on just what traits you are testing for. An annual field trial, held in different parts of the country so that all could participate eventually.
The question is: What kinds of tests or activities are sufficient to test a dog to see if he has the "true instincts" he was originally bred for?
Things that have been mentioned:
Lure coursing (tests prey drive, agility, speed, sight, reaction time).
Search & Rescue (tests scenting ability, perseverance, agility and maneuverability, stamina, ability to work with his handler, trainability, some prey drive, I suppose)
Hikes (tests observational abilities, reaction time, willingness to work with owner/handler, tracking ability maybe?)
There were others mentioned. None of these tests the dog's courage to go up against a wild animal that threatens it, be it bear, boar or cornered deer.
So, my question is, are these tests enough? Or even feasible? Everyone can hike, but lure coursing trials are few and far between, and there is quite a commitment to become a S&R handler -- how many people are going to do it?
Yes, it would be wonderful if a parent club would devise a field trial using parts of these tests, IF you could get agreement on just what traits you are testing for. An annual field trial, held in different parts of the country so that all could participate eventually.
Comments
I am not sure people really are coloring the page in completely when they say we need to preserve (and as mentioned in the other thread, if the shika that are here already are not field strains, then are we talking about 'preserving' or 're-creating'?') boar hunting drive/ability in shikoku/kai/kishu in the US. I don't think we are being prepared for reality when we idealistically say we want this for the breed(s).
Brad and I have talked about drive and fear, and I think this relates to the Test of Courage aspect. Theory being that a dog who can respond with the level of intensity (drive) required for work like protection, or detaining a large dangerous wild animal (bear, boar etc.) where it is not a game, derives this intensity from a deep fear. The dog is NOT kidding, and he can't be because he'll get killed if he is not 1000% committed and he can;t be 1000% committed if he isn't petrified or in some kind of life or death mode. A soldier, a cop, is a different story from a civilian and the things that make them excellent and surviving at their work is a level of intensity that doesn't always play well at home, in relationships. A really high drive dog is likewise not easy to live with. There is a reason that soldiers can have real trouble re-integrating into civilian society when they return from war. I only know that much.
Do we REALLY want a dog who has what it takes to bay or catch a bear or a boar? Do I? (honestly, no.) What does it do to the dog to wrestle with that inside him- the brain chemical load, the adrenalin, the up and down? And for us to breed it into them for no purpose but heritage is vain of us, IMO. It has been mentioned on the forum beforet how RARE it is to have a dog stable enough to control their on/off drive switch. We have talked before about gameness- and I think that applies here.
I wonder- I do not know- if dogs who are doing schutzhund are sparring or if they are life-or-deathing? I have been told that schutzhund is a sport and is not the same as attack training for protection dogs, but I don't know directly and some of you do...?
Most people will use their dogs for recreational activities, such as hiking, tracking, SAR, and modern styles of hunting. It used to be much more important for a dog to really detain an animal because they had to stay in one place long enough to be killed with a spear or an arrow. The main purpose of hunting dogs today is to locate prey, and in some cases, retrieve it when it's already dead. Hunting in such a way that the dog comes into physical contact with the animal is basically obsolete, and modern equipment removes many of the risks. So, I would say that modern hunting requires good athletic ability to move in the wilderness and tracking ability.
I'll finish this later, I have to go...
Do we REALLY want a dog who has what it takes to bay or catch a bear or a boar? Do I? (honestly, no.) What does it do to the dog to wrestle with that inside him- the brain chemical load, the adrenalin, the up and down? And for us to breed it into them for no purpose but heritage is vain of us, IMO.
Dave? Where's Dave when you need him? I want to hear what you have to say to this.....
That is why people should research a breed before they decide to get a dog. Dogs should not be breed to become suitable for regular home life. There are plenty of breeds out there already suitable for it.
"Do we REALLY want a dog who has what it takes to bay or catch a bear or a boar? Do I? (honestly, no.) What does it do to the dog to wrestle with that inside him- the brain chemical load, the adrenalin, the up and down? And for us to breed it into them for no purpose but heritage is vain of us, IMO."
Some people do want that. And there are breeds out there that can switch off the attack drive mode when put into a different environment. I understand not everyone will want their shikoku to hunt and there are some that will want a more driven dog. I hope in the future there will be a working line of shikoku and a more softer line for those who prefer a more homey dog. I certainly wouldn't want the breed altogether to become distant from its original character or unsuitable for hiking, S&R etc. I mean look at the Atika.
Chris, do you think this applies to the Dogo Argentinos, Karelian Bear Dogs, Laikas, Kishus, curs, etc.?
"Brad and I have talked about drive and fear, and I think this relates to the Test of Courage aspect. Theory being that a dog who can respond with the level of intensity (drive) required for work like protection, or detaining a large dangerous wild animal (bear, boar etc.) where it is not a game, derives this intensity from a deep fear."
I thought this clip from Quantuam Canine relates to this thread.
Yes, and after reading what I wrote, I think I left off on the wrong note. The reason I like Shikoku is because of how they are now, not what I think I can make them into. My main point is that dogs don't need to be life-or-death-no-off-switch-totally-unsuitable-for-civilized-living. But I don't think that Shikoku are like that now. Rakka lives peacefully in my home every day. Most descriptions I read about Shikoku say that they're tenacious and highly-driven in the field and quiet in the home. That fits my Rakka to a T. Now, if she doesn't get a chance to run and wrestle and chase birds off the ground, then she's a real hassle in the home, and I think that's where the Shikoku is not suitable for most owners. They are great for people who want a dog for rugged, outdoor work that requires focus and stamina. I don't think they are crazy-go-nuts 24/7 and I don't think they need to be. Rakka will go all day if I'm going all day, but she can come in and relax after a good romp, too.
BUT... a lot of people would find the Shikoku too driven and extreme for their tastes, and for them a recommend a different breed of dog. Also, I should note that I've only ever see Rakka get tired once. She really can go all day and does when she gets the chance, but she's not a nervous, uncontrollable sack of energy if we don't. She is pretty hard to manage if she can't get out at all, though. For instance, when she was recovering from surgery, she wasn't allowed to do any rough-and-tumble get dirty stuff, and it was an unpleasant time for all. A lot of this is conditioning, too. If you intend on working your dog all day, every day, they have to work up to that condition, and likewise, if you were to switch an all-day-every-day working dog to home life, it would require an adjustment.
It's also very important to note that individual dogs within a litter are going to vary, and it's the job of the breeder and the prospective owner to make a decision about which puppy is suitable for which home. Knowing how the Shikoku tends to be, a breeder can sell the go-go-go dog to the person who wants a SAR companion and the more easy-going one to the people who just want a hiking buddy. To the people who want a house dog that doesn't need lots of activity, they can say, "go somewhere else."
As for there being separate lines of Shikoku, well, there already are in Japan. What we have in N America is the show/pet line. That's what I mean when I say that they've already changed. As a general rule, a population will change and evolve over time and keeping a breed the same requires a deliberate effort. Personally, I like how the Shikoku as I know it is now. The only exception I can think of is the dog-dog aggression tendencies, which don't seem to have any utility. And that's precisely the kind of thing that will most likely fade over time because no one's selecting for it. If they are, they're doing it for the sake of keeping the breed the same, not for any practical reason.
I don't think the Shikoku needs to be reinvented, I just don't think it's realistic to think that the Shikoku of today are carbon copies of the original Shikoku. Shikoku are relatively unchanged and pure compared to most dog breeds, but some degree of change is inevitable.
One thing I don't want to see is people picking sides and arguing with the people who have different goals with their dogs. In some other breeds, the show lines hate the working line breeders and vice versa. It's dumb, really, because you can't say one is any better than the other. They're both just enjoying their dogs and their dogs are enjoying life, too (or should be). If someone's unhappy, unhealthy, or unstable, then there's a problem.
All these perspectives are valid, and as with any community, the community of Shikoku owners has differing individuals and there's no reason we can't allow for that. There's really no need for divisiveness and no one needs to prove anyone wrong.
Good question, and I guess what I;d say is that I am fully aware that there are many breeds (and individuals) that don't suit my lifestyle or personality, many that are too much dog for me. Absolutely. But I have met, played with, walked with and kissed Miko more than once and she is not one of them. She is in the range I enjoy. If the shikoku we already have are at a drive level higher than most pet dogs but not ridiculous, why advocate for making them sharper? For who's satisfaction is that decision made? Sharp shikoku exist in Japan- they aren't going anywhere, or if they are it is up to the people who keep them as a national treasure to decide.
Additionally, drive level need not be extreme- Dogo --->pekingese. There is much inbetween. I love german shepherds, but no way would I seek a dog from a police or protection line for my family- its more than I can handle, and I know it. A guide dog line, maybe. Perhaps a breeder can choose to sharpen their lines and sell to hunters, but not to motion that the breed should be overall sent in a harder direction, I guess.
Dogs should not be breed to become suitable for regular home life. There are plenty of breeds out there already suitable for it.
And by the same token, there are already breeds suitable for bear/boar hunting, so how can we say to intensify the shikoku or kai from what it is?
And it's okay!
These shikoku aren't golden retreivers either and we like them that way. If all we really know is the companion line, then who are we to say we like our shikoku sharper if all we really know is the softer end of the shikoku spectrum? (which by most US pets is still considered sharper.) It's all well and good to sit here at my monitor and say, "I'd like a really badass small wolfy looking dog that can attack a wild boar and dont take no guff," and I'd believe someone like Shigeru all the way if he said that that he meant it and needed it, but what % of forum members dress up their dogs in outfits? How many of us are completely in awe (not the good, hooray kind of awe- the holy crap kind of awe) when our dogs reveal the very hot intensity of certain aggression? (raises hand) IF we consider that the majority of north americans who seek a shikoku, or have even heard of a shikoku, are on this forum then we can take the temperature of the "market' rather accurately. I bet almost nobody on this forum REALLY truly wants a kickass boar hunter in their house every day as much as they just want to know that they exist somewhere still.
A little off topic here, but there are so many conflicting theories on how to train a puppy/dog, the few I've come across that are:
1) Don Sullivan - His youtube video results are nothing short of "miracle" to me. Method is really hardcore correction with good positive reinforcement without treats
2) Leerburg or Ed Frawley - claims his method is the right one because of his background and impressive numbers and credentials.
3) Ian Dunbar - Humane and positive training. TED even invited him to speak, video on youtube too.
Since we just got our puppy, we are really confused sometimes which method to stick to, WHEN to let puppy be puppy, and WHEN to start training with correction.
Having Aki really open our eyes to a whole new world.
Heidi's description fits my Kuma too. He can go and go and go (never seems tired) but in the house he is quite quiet. And living on the farm, I definitely KNOW that he still has a very, very strong hunting drive, even if he might be from a show/pet line. In comparison to other breeds (ie, goldens/labs), he would be considered pretty sharp especially as it relates to his hunting drive.
If he is after game, all bets are off as to distracting him or getting him to listen immediately, yet he is a fabulous obedience dog (ie, competition). But when he is in high drive, all his training does not (usually) overwhelm his desire to hunt and quarry the game. For that reason, he is kept in a yard, because if he saw a fox or a deer (which we have a lot of) he would be in the next county.
As far as testing methods go, it would have to be, because of animal rights, probably not with boar. I would think that lure coursing type events would be a good avenue. Or testing ability against smaller game which are considered pests(like ground hogs/woodchucks). I know in my own experience with Kuma (lots of woodchucks/groundhogs), depending on the animal, he will either (1) quickly grab and dispatch or (2) bark to detain. He does the latter with the bigger (13-15 lbs) ground hogs who will stand up and fight back. So it is an interesting match up, especially when he switches to "detaining" as he will bark very vigorously, usually withing about 6 inches of the quarry and dodge any bites the quarry makes at him. So like Brad was theorizing in his Japanese hunting video, the dog quickly can switch between biting and detaining depending on the quarry's skill at fighting off the dog.
I often wonder how he would do with sheep herding too. I believe Corina has tried that with her Shikoku Shoshuu/Kei (sp?). I know that Kuma quickly picked up herding of one of our cats who is only allowed within a small area of the front yard. He will herd him back onto the porch. And he takes commands to bring the cat back and listens to commands to stop herding. Now sheep might bring the high drive out and maybe he wouldn't listen. But I would be interested in trying
But it DOES speak philosophically to the stated goals of a breed club, for instance. Most national clubs state their philosophy as wanting to preserve the breed, and suggest breeding to improve the breed, whatever direction THAT may take. By "preserving," wouldn't that mean maintaining strong hunting instincts?
I knew I'd open a can of worms, here. There are no easy answers. I've heard both sides in other breeds. We live in suburban America (most of us) and we need a mellower dog than it was in yesteryear. Yet then we change the dog. It's a circle of problems with no answers. Just food for thought. I'm not trying to pit one side against the other, honest.
I'll always remember this lesson from a long-ago Basenji breeder, active with her Basenjis in obedience just at the time when we were all fascinated with all the information that was coming out about what puppies could learn, when they could learn it, and puppy kindergarten classes were starting to become popular everywhere. She really liked Basenjis and really liked obedience. (is that an oxymoron?) So she started breeding her most willing Basenjis to her most biddable, Basenjis, and within a few generations, she had pretty good obedience Basenjis.
Then it dawned on her.
She was no longer breeding Basenjis. She was breeding Cocker Spaniels in Basenji suits. They had lost many of those traits that made a Basenji a Basenji -- the cat-like independence, the aloofness. And so she quit breeding and said she could not ethically continue in this vein any longer. In fact, I think she got out of Basenjis altogether....
Will we (meaning you) be breeding real Shikokus in 10 generations if you breed only pet/show lines?
It's possible to breed working traits back into lines by selecting for it as well.
The vast majority of Nihon Ken over here are show/pet dogs. The 6 'natural monument' breeds were classified as such to 'preserve' them in their natural state. There is a lot of discussion about preserving their temperament/working instincts and not just the look.
Yanagisawa-san, a man I respect for his work to preserve the Kai, spent his life breeding and hunting with them. He is now deceased, but his family still runs his little shop in Tokyo. He scoured the countryside for good dogs, bred them, and sent pups to hunters all over Japan. 'Return the Kai Ken to the mountains' became his slogan. He believed that when the Kai lost its instincts and abilities as a hunter, it was no longer a Kai.
The hunters he sent pups to would hunt with the dogs, breed the best, and send pups back to Yanagisawa-san. Thus he managed to keep working Kai bloodlines alive and circulating in the 'show lines' as well.
I just received my bi-annual Kai Ken Aigokai magazine with pictures and articles from this year's spring show. The chairman's introduction on page one included several paragraphs reminding everyone of the need to keep the dogs working, and not just showing.
I've spoken with Yanagisawa-san's son in law many times on the failings of a breed system that rewards 'lookers' and does not have competitions to judge temperament or working instinct. It is much more difficult to set up, but I think if there are not realistically going to be very many actually hunting dogs in the States, then creating some sort of trial to test them would be a service to the breed.
Working drive, tracking ability, problem solving, stamina, athleticism, strength, courage, sound judgement, most of these can be tested for outside of a 'real' hunting scenario. Even baying instincts can be tested while keeping the dog and pig apart.
Nihon Ken have lived here in Japan for 1000's of years doing whatever their masters needed them to do. It's not so much picking one thing (ie boar hunting) and saying all of them have to be good boar dogs. Kai Ken were originally used for hunting 'kamoshika' a type of mountain antelope, but they also hunted pheasants to feed themselves, and served as 'ban-ken' for their villages. They've been boar hunters, bear hunters, and now many are bird dogs. There are Kai in Nagano that work as 'monkey dogs' protecting orchards from raiding primates. 2 of Haru's siblings are in a training program set up by Hokkaido University to track the non-native raccoons. There are several Kai I know of that are SAR certified.
Preserving the Japanese breed's temperaments (a subject for another time), and their ability to aid their masters to get 'work' done doesn't have to involve killing an animal.
Also to add more to my wall of text, these breeds should have that 'on/off' switch. It's been prized for years. In many areas there was only a short season every year when the hunt was on (much like today), and for the rest of the year the dogs hung around the village. Most of the best hunting dogs I've seen are extremely mild, but suddenly kick it into gear when on the hunt. I see it in Haru. She's the laziest puppy I've ever had, sleeping around the house all day, trots along on walks. As soon as we get near the mountains her nose goes into over drive, and she has endless stamina and drive. I appreciate it, and it's a wonder to see.
>>>> Unless someone in N. America starts producing sharper, higher-drive, "working" line Shikoku, Heidi will be producing the Shikoku as we know it in N. America. Just like my 4 Akita Inu are examples of the Akita Inu as it is known today - but not the Akita Inu as it was known before or at the reconstruction. If someone had continued to produce sharper, higher-drive, Akita Inu (as they were in the past) we would have 2 distinct Akita Inu types in N. America and Europe: Pet & Working.
If you want a "pet", you buy from a pet breeder. If you want a "working dog" you buy from a working breeder.
In my opinion this is the only solution, and the only path, that will preserve the true origins of these breeds while still minimizing the risk of rehomed and rescue cases. I think a working line Shikoku (or any other breed), should be selected for (ordered by importance) 1.Health, 2."True" Temperament, 3. Looks. Got pet line Shikoku they should be selected for 1. Health, 2.Soft/biddable Temperament, 3.Looks/confirmation.
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As for the original topic, I think it’s unrealistic to think you can breed a dog for boar hunting but never do controlled hunting/Temperament testing using wild boar. It's unsafe, IMHO, to just take your boar hunting breed on a hunt *hoping* it can do its hunting role having never tested them in a safer controlled hunting/tempement test. That's just irresponsible and dangerous to the dog. Which is worse, NOT using wild pigs for enclosed testing of dogs (being cruel to that one pig), or blindly throwing a "green" hunting dog into the hunt without knowing for sure it has what it takes to escape being gutted by a wild pig?
You would go through dog after dog (more than likely) looking for the "correct" Temperament, when you could have done a test using 1 boar that was going to be dispatched and eaten anyway.
If you want to just use your dog's prey drive, and are not interested in ever hunting your dog, then do schutzhund with your dog... I mean schutzhund is a TEST (that has been made into a sport) for TESTING a dog’s prey drive and balance for doing police work. Schutzhund is the answer to the question when it comes to working your dog's prey drive and fight drive w/o the use of a wild boar.
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MnV - Perhaps you should make a new thread regarding your question/comment in this thread? Would be a great and interesting topic to discuss! (and it seems it may have been lost in this post)
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My thoughts were never about intensifying it, just about keeping the status quo of the breed.
No additional info on the slide about the dog training that might lead up to this test.
I have searched for additional information about this test. No luck. Perhaps one of the other Shiba folks has more info.
It seems we can conclude that it is many things however. In North America, I read above from someone who knows better than me that we have pet lines, and if that's what it is and what the shikoku I have met are, then I think they are great regardless of whether they pursue a chipmunk, a squeaky toy, a guy with a bite sleeve, a lost hiker or a boar.
Boy, I don't know. Let me take the "purist's" side. The purist would say that overcoming a dog's resistance to biting a human (even if it's a sleeve as a sport) and showing the kind of aggression that the dog shows when holding the bad guy in a blind while he looks him straight in the eye to say, "you move you'll make my day," or tackling a bad guy at a flying run, is not at all the same as "hunting." For all we know, even the fiercest hunter would never DREAM of doing this kind of Schutzhund work to another human being and would naturally have tendencies NOT to show this kind of behavior, no matter the training -- the same way a bird dog might show tons of drive towards retrieving a bird out of icy water, but would be mortified to EVER lay teeth on another human or even bark at him!.... Because I think Schutzhund work tests more than high drive, no? There's a little element of -- I don't want to say aggression, but sharpness maybe?
Nothing is ever perfect. Perhaps it's the best we can come up with.
Here's a thought for you: we don't know for SURE that these dogs wouldn't hunt, or wouldn't have the instincts to do so if given the opportunity. How much of hunting is hardwired into a breed?
The lines we have in America are a mix of working and show lines from Japan - and a mix of the Awa, Hongawa, and Hata lines. The Shikoku in America are pets, and have been placed in companion/show/breeding homes exclusively, this is due to them being sold as such, and not being sold as working dogs; therefore not being selected for workability.
The bloodlines of the Shikoku in N. America only go a generation or 2 before they go back to Japan - I'm not sure that's enough to brand the N. American lines as either "show/pet" or "working" - that would be correct and incorrect at the same time.
You could certainly say that regarding the Kai Ken tho, as their lines have been here in America for a while now.
The Shikoku & Kishu is at a point in the US where a choice needs to be made by breeders as to if they want to produce wonderful family dogs or wonderful working dogs as the current project path will most certainly lead them in one direction and that is the show/companion one.
The Hokka, with only around 5 representations of them in all of N. America, is so removed from the equation it’s pointless to bring them up in this conversation about working vs. show lines.
If I had to guess the majority of the Shikoku & Kishu owners would want a dog that fell in the middle of the scale, one that had enough drive to be called a Shikoku while also not having too much drive to be unsuitable as a pet. That is why I push for there to be working and show breeders, you can only have a midpoint if you have extremes on each side. The show breeders would produce some dogs that had a bit sharper of a personality than they prefer and sell them to outdoorsman-type homes while the working kennel would produce some softer dogs and sell them to the same type of client - in other words there would be over lap and that overlap would probably be the majority and closest to the "true" temperament.
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Another thing that she be pointed out is the difference in dogs show here (in America) vs. dog shows in Japan. In Japan the dogs are show to judges and judged against the breed standard, this includes a temperament test (in most cases). Once the dog has passed this part of the show/test, assuming they met the standard, then they are judged against each other.
In America, dogs are shown only against each other, and are not judged on temperament at all. Also, in many cases, they are judged by judges who may have never seen a Shikoku before (that's beside the point tho).
Point is, yes, of course show lines coming from Japan would still have a nice amount of the original temperament of the breed (and may even be suitable for hunting), but in the hands of the American showers/breeders they will be bred specifically for looks and physical confirmation ignoring temperament (or dummying the temperament down to the point that the dogs can go to a show with ease).
This is another reason why I feel so strongly someone needs to produce Shikoku/Kai/Kishu with the sharper temperament so that the lines in America do not fall exclusively in the hands of the showers - and I am not saying showing dogs in America is bad, or wrong, I am just pointing out the underlying objective. A show breeder wants a dog that is EASY to deal with and LOOKS beautiful so they can maximize their showing efforts. You will not find they type of dog in a working kennel.
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Now regarding this...
"Boy, I don't know. Let me take the "purist's" side. The purist would say that overcoming a dog's resistance to biting a human (even if it's a sleeve as a sport) and showing the kind of aggression that the dog shows when holding the bad guy in a blind while he looks him straight in the eye to say, "you move you'll make my day," or tackling a bad guy at a flying run, is not at all the same as "hunting." For all we know, even the fiercest hunter would never DREAM of doing this kind of Schutzhund work to another human being and would naturally have tendencies NOT to show this kind of behavior, no matter the training -- the same way a bird dog might show tons of drive towards retrieving a bird out of icy water, but would be mortified to EVER lay teeth on another human or even bark at him!.... Because I think Schutzhund work tests more than high drive, no? There's a little element of -- I don't want to say aggression, but sharpness maybe?"
I completely disagree (surprised? lol).
I promise you, a dog doesn't care if it's chasing a rabbit, child, boar, bear, gorilla, or car. Dogs chase those things because they LOVE TO CHASE, it's not done out of instinct, it’s done out of pure passion and adrenal addiction. I would bet money you can take any hunting dog (maybe even any dog), reinforce them for chasing small children a few times, and end with a dog that that is very effective at hunting small children. That doesn't mean those dogs are bred to hunt children - which is the purity angle I think you were trying to attack.
Don't get caught up in the fairytale of dog breed descriptions, dogs don't just "know" not to hurt children, or not to hunt one animal vs. another, or not to bite when they need to bay. These things come from encounters and interaction with their environment and reinforcement for specific behaviors.
Also, take a minute to read up on Schutzhund and FAPs. In Schutzhund the dog does very little biting on the sleeve (relatively speaking). The sleeve bite is the final part; it's the reward in the activity, or the end of the FAP. The rest of Schutzhund is all prey drive work & obedience. Schutzhund is broken into a few different activities: Tracking, Obedience, and Bite work - it's far more complex and versatile than just dogs biting people. Hell, if that is the part of Schutzhund you don't like then leave it out and you will still be working your dog's prey drive!
Holding a human at bay or holding a boar at bay is the same activity for the dog.
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Let me clarify something: I use boar as an example of what I plan to use as game for hunting - a Shikoku or Kai could hunt any number of animals, they are "general purpose hunting dogs". I have chosen Boar as it is a problem in the US (as Dave mentioned in his post in that AKC thread). Deer is probably another great candidate as they have become a problem too. The day the Kangaroo becomes an environmental issue in the US then I will push to use the Kai or Shikoku to hunt them too.
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Our Shikoku are handler soft too, and would probably never bite us. Same goes for Blue our Cane Corso (Italian Mastiff), actually he is less likely to bite us than Ahi since we can trim his nails without getting the snarky freak out that we get with Ahi.
Yet, I have seen Blue BITE A SLEEVE, he freaking loved it. I am certain Ahi would love it too. It has 0% to do with them being predisposed to bite humans and 100% to do with them LOVING the bite – the end of the prey drive FAP.
The physical confrontation and the act of biting is REWARDING to the dog - that is what all of the police dogs are trained for - that is why you see them salivating when doing this type of work. ANY breed would enjoy biting the sleeve.
Keep in mind; in the dog's mind he is biting a prey item - the sleeve. NOT biting a human. Just like if you put your hand under a blanket and move it around, you dog may chase and bite it - they have NO IDEA they just bit your hand.
Dog bites are not nearly as personal as people make them out to be.
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Brad, you are correct about there not being enough generations of imported dogs in the states to establish what anyone could even call a true, unique line. This would take about 10 generations, so you can see there is a lot of room to direct the evolution of the breed in the US regarding temperment and workability.
I do know of breeders in other breeds that keep seperate lines of softer temperments and higher drive temperments and they can breed accordingly for their show homes, themselves, or for working homes.
"In America, dogs are shown only against each other, and are not judged on temperament at all."
Temperment is judged, it's critical. The judges do pull dogs out very similar to the Japanese style, and the dogs are judged according to the standard. This is my perception of the matter, from what my experience in the ring has been over the last year.
"A show breeder wants a dog that is EASY to deal with and LOOKS beautiful so they can maximize their showing efforts. You will not find they type of dog in a working kennel."
It's certainly very nice to cart around a mellow dog that will stand and not grumble and let strangers come up and touch them while they ask stupid questions like "Is this a mini wolf?", but realistically, and this is completely the opposite of what I had firmly believed before I got into showing, it's the "naughty" dogs with the wicked sinful temperments and higher drives that show best, even though it's difficult. A dog that is just going thru the motions and falling asleep while standing there has a lack-luster temperment and the judge will not view that dog as a total package. The uber driven dog with lots of drive to play games and hunt always looks better, they call it having good sportsmanship. All the same, it's likely true that you would still rarely if ever see any of those dogs in a working kennel even so because they are still not driven enough.
>>>> How do they judge temperament? With a test, or just the vibe from the dog at that moment?
"The judges do pull dogs out very similar to the Japanese style, and the dogs are judged according to the standard."
>>>> I think the difference is that in Japan the dogs are not allowed to compete in the ring against each other without first proving they meet the standard (including temperament). This, to me, is the key: the dogs are filtered, by a NIPPO judge, based on the dog's compliance with the breed standard BEFORE they are allowed to compete in the ring.
Is that correct?
You are way more the expert on this subject than I, I have never shown a dog - ever.
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That is a bit of a difference, then. There is no temperment test that is required. In an AKC all breed show, there are about 2 minutes that the judge has to go over any individual dog. It is a pitifully short amount of time, but in the breeds with smaller numbers, like Shiba, it seems like they have a little more time. All the dogs of each class go into the ring at the same time, so that is different than a Nippo style show, which I have never been to. They go around, the judge examines every one on a table. They all go around again and the judge will go up to the individual dogs and talk to them sometimes, walk around them, see if they move, make noises at them to see how alert they are.
There are dogs that are fine on the table, but cower on the ground, and vice-versa. I have seen dogs jump off tables, bite, nip at judges, growl, pee and poo. That doesn't tell the judge how nice of a pet the dog is at home, or if it has lots of character and a strong will, but people can see right away if the dog is confident, happy, outgoing and friendly, if not only for 2 whole minutes.
I haven't ever been to a Japanese style show, but the Specialties, are what is worth taking a dog to. They do get a thourough going over at Specialties. I saw the judges pulling individual dogs out from a long line of dogs and meeting them face to face, viewing teeth, walking around and touching them, much more thourough then at a large all breed show. That reminded me most of the little I have learned about how dogs are presented at Nippo style shows where the handler stands behind the dog and it is gone over head to toe without resisting. The current judging situation is still really hurried and a lot gets missed or overlooked, no arguing that.
I prefer a balanced dog, Like Brad said, we've got a pretty good mix of dogs, but the trend will tend toward more pet-type dogs for breeders who value that.
As for bite sleeve, I'd say that it's definitely a case of the dog being born with drive, but it can be focused in many different ways. Rakka would chase kids if I let her. She'd bay the donkey, too. Instead, I send her after rabbits and quails in the driveway. Pretty much every morning starts out with chasing the rabbit down his hole. It's as regular as the potty break!
I am basically kicking myself for missing the boat on getting Rakka into SAR, but she's too old now, and when I first got her, she was too reactive to other dogs. My plan was to start training her (and myself) to hunt this year, I found a local hunting dog trainer who was willing to work with us. Unfortunately, I'm pregnant and I get symphysis pubis dysfunction whenever I'm pregnant, which makes walking painful, so it'll have to wait a year since these things only go on during hunting season, and I have to jump through some hoops myself to get a gun and hunting license. BUT, Noah's getting a vasectomy, then I can go hunting and do SAR, haha.
I love nothing more than to see a great athlete and predator working in the field. Nothing's better! The show ring could never give me that thrill, but other people are different.
Keep in mind; in the dog's mind he is biting a prey item - the sleeve.
I'm still not so sure about this. I understand that the sleeve is the end reward activity, it's almost like a tug toy to the dog and all he's doing is playing with the sleeve, really. In fact, in beginning training, when the young dog bites the sleeve, the bad guy just shakes it off and the dog enjoys shaking it and carrying it around like a wonderful prize.
If any dog could be taught to do this and do Schutzhund well, then why don't we see Labs and German Shorthair Pointers and large Poodles doing SchH work? I know -- the obvious answer is that the tests aren't open to them. But I'm betting that SchH handlers and trainers can give you an earful on why they use GSDs and Malinois and Bouvier. The other breeds might not be able to take the switch/whip and have the courage(?) to work through it, they might be too submissive, they might not have the drive even with training to chase down an individual, they might not have enough strength of character to stare the bad guy down in a blind -- i.e., they're just too soft, for lack of a better term. There's a reason they use German Shepherds and Malinois primarily - just what IS that reason? Extreme confidence? Sharpness? I'd like to hear what they have to say, and then determine whether the Shikoku falls into the GSD/Mal side, or the Labrador/other breeds side in character/temperament traits.