My husband calls Kuma my shadow. If I move anywhere in the house, he follows and goes with me. He often watches if he gets a few feet ahead to see where I am going and waits for me. Outside, he tends to follow me around a lot too.
I would say on my n=1, Shikoku are highly loyal. But unlike Brad's comment, they don't sit and "wait" like Akita. Instead they might run back and forth at the fenceline vs just wait. And often bark and yipe because you are outside the fence and they cannot get to you. My experience.
I am with Kris. Miko will follow me where ever I go. She waits at the stairs for me when I get up in the morning and at the window when I am coming home. My friends tell me that when I leave the house it takes her a good half hour of sitting at the door or the window before she will relax and accept that I am going to be gone for a while. She is certainly loyal. But I don't think she would hold vigil the way it seems Akita may. My pit bull Ruby on the other hand might hold vigil, or at least write a song about how much she misses us.
If following you around = loyalty, then Loa is loyal (Miko, Kuma, & Loa are all related to Mike - keep that in mind). I am not sure that (following you around) equates to loyalty tho, IMHO. And, using that same model, Ahi is NOT loyal - she never follows us.
Then there is this: when we dropped Loa off at Peggy's house she howled for the first few nights for her family, that sounds loyal to me - or was that just loneliness? I'm not sure Ahi would do that.... but when Ahi was a pup she almost killed a Shiba for attacking Hilo when he was a baby, I think that is a loyal gesture - standing up for her family - or that just territorial?
Then again, in working on the CGC test with Akita and Shikoku, when we did the "2 minutes with a stranger" part (where you leave the dog alone with a stranger) Loa could care less that we had left her with a person as long as she thought they were "fun" people to be with, while the Akita got a little upset - not stressed - but just concerned with where we went (by watching the door and not paying much attention to the "stranger").
I honestly feel the term "loyal" is a bit vague (I feel that way about a lot of dog terms). err... maybe a bit anthropomorphizing. The term's definition is "steadfast in allegiance or duty". By that definition I would say an Akita is loyal and a Shikoku is just self-centered (they want to be with you because you are fun or pleasing to them). LOL.
Well Dan says that Kuma is "needy" and not loyal per se. And yes Brad, I agree that following you is not necessarily "loyal". Hard to really define really.
Beth, if wanting to be with you = loyal, than Kuma is way more loyal than any of the Siberians I owned...They loved me but didn't care if I was in a different room. But then again Ahi doesn't care either, eh, Brad! LOL!
When I hear about the loyalty of an Akita (or any Nihonken), I think of Hachikō. No (famous) story evokes the feeling of loyalty like that one.
But then I start to ruin it, by thinking about the behavior that Hachikō is doing in that story, and the concepts that it implies, and I realize, he was probably just inadvertently trained to do those things.
If the Japanese fellow in the movie always went to work and returned at the same time, and Hachikō went with, and valued his time spent with his "master" (and lets not forget that he got treats from vendors during the walk to and from the train station - per the original movie/story), then he was basically being reinforced for going to the train station at that time every day. Add that to the fact I know Akita LOVE having a routine and, well, it becomes less of a loyal gesture and more of a selfish one, no?
Jen and I chatted about this and came to the conclusion that we don;'t think you would really see "loyalty" from your dog everyday. We think it would be a special thing, something you would rarely see - like Hachikō. Perhaps the loyalty that Hachikō showed was not the routine of going to the station (and then going after his master passed) but really the waiting for his mater to return?
I heard a story once about an Akita who's owner passed away. This Akita was always very happy and loving with his owner. When his owner passed away he was adopted by a family friend. The Akita was so upset by his owner's death that he wouldn't eat. He became very ill, and emaciated. The new owner did everything they could for the Akita, vets, foods, specialists, drugs - everything - but the Akita wouldn't eat. Years went by with the dog barely eating and slowly withering away till finally the new owner decided all they could do was put the Akita to sleep. They took him to the vet to be put down, and when they got him on the table to give him the shot he began to wag his tail and became excited - as if he knew he would see his owner soon - over the rainbow bridge. This was the first, last, and only time the dog had wagged his tail and appeared happy since his owner was alive.
To me, that is loyalty - and complex enough of a chain of behaviors and timeline to where I cannot draw a solid training/behavioral connection to ruin the loyalty aspect of the story. Do I think he really knew he was going over the bridge? No, I don't, but the chain of event that lead to that point seems very "loyal".
Of our dogs I see only a few of them as having the aptitude to do what that Akita did: Ahi, Hilo, Kona, Blue, & Masha. With Ahi, I don't think she would really do that tho. Blue might, Masha too. Hilo would probably be depressed - but not take it that far. But I dunno about Ahi, or Kona and those feelings are based only on my feelings - perhaps, if I connected with Lani or Fuji the way I do with the dogs named above, they would show this type of Loyalty?
So... that is a story of loyalty, Hachikō is another example - but with Akita.
Do any of you know of any story like that for the Shikoku?
This is a bit of thread hijack (SORRY DAVE!), but I think we've stumbled onto an interesting topic.
Bear with me for a minute here and let's go back a few thousand years to the time wolves were evolving into domestic dogs. We've had a number of discussion before about how it was dogs who domesticated themselves. The dogs who were able to overcome their fears and seek food from human communities were the ones that thrived. As I understand it, nobody knows for sure what happened next, but what makes sense in my head is those dogs that were friendliest with people were the ones that got taken care of the most. If that's the case, it's not a large leap of faith to believe that the humans that were "taking care" of those dogs were favoring the dogs they felt the best connection with---the dogs they could "understand". Back then, there was very little understanding of dog/wolf psychology (that we know of) and, for that matter, probably very little understanding of human psychology too. So, anther way of saying that is that the dogs that behaved in ways they could easily anthropomorphize were those that thrived and, by natural selection, were able to reproduce and pass those behaviors on to their progeny.
Bearing that in mind, consider the modern domestic dog. The popularity of dogs today is, IMO, due in large part to people being able to apply human psychology to their behavior---to anthropomorphize them. In that context, I ask: Does it really matter if a dog is "loyal"? Or is it enough that we perceive a dog's actions to be loyal? A deeper understanding of dog psychology and behavior can enable us to explain away a lot of anthropomorphized behaviors like jealousy or love. But does it matter? Perhaps a dog's behavior that we perceive as love is really a very selfish act or a sequence of behaviors that have been reinforced over time to become essentially a FAP. But, IMO, what matters in our relationship with dogs is what we get out of it. So if we perceive that behavior as love, why not call it love and love them right back?
Just a follow-up....I forgot to mention that when we're talking about behavior modification it's a completely different ball game. Then using human psychology is a potential disaster.
Anthropomorphizing- what luck that I just finished re-reading Elizabeth Marshall Thomas after ten or so years. From the foreword of The Hidden Life of Dogs:
"..a book on dogs must by definition be anthropomorphic...We are not the only species to apply our values and our experience when interpreting other creatures. Dogs do it too, sometimes with no more luck than the psychiatrist. When a dog with a bone menaces a human observer, the dog actually assumes that the person wants the slimy dirt-laden object, and is applying dog values, or cynomorphizing."
Anthropomorphize away, I say. Dave is right- what matters is what the parties in a relationship get out of it, whatever we each call it to have meaning to us.
I agree with Dave, this is an interesting topic and brings up a good point. And Chrystal, that quote is perfect... I think I agree, it's how it makes YOU feel.
So, to the OP, you would need to define qualities that you feel are loyal for us to properly answer your question, no?
Jen and I have a few dogs now, a variety, I love them all and feel they enrich our life. I love having the different breeds and types - and such extreme types - as it gives me a better perspective on our Nihonken, who are my first and true dog love. On the other hand tho, sometimes I think learning as much as I have, and seeing as much as I have seen with our dogs has limited my ability to "feel" my dogs.
I remember when we first got Ahi and how she turned our world upside-down, she was like a rare mythical creature to us - or a wild animal that we shouldn't have. In a lot of ways I hate that I have lost that feeling, but in other ways I LOVE where I am now and what I have learned.
In a way, I have been let down by my experiences. I really bought into the folktales of the different breeds; I love the history and their origin, and I love the stories of them in their native lands, but I have realized those stories are exactly that: stories. Society has made it so a lot of those stories cannot ever be experienced again, and that's kinda sad to me.
To watch new owners go through the same thing is just really special, that is why I love this forum.
Sometimes I wonder if my view has become somewhat "wet blanket" to the new owners and enthusiasts. If it has, I apologize.
On that note, here is a story about Loa and her loyalty...
Every night, around 8PM, I head to the couch to chill with Jen and watch a few shows. No matter what Loa is doing, even if she is outside across the yard, when she sees me sit down on the couch, she comes running over and jumps up to sit right next to me. Then, every night, like clock work, about 5 minutes after sitting there she falls back on her back and lays the top of her head on my lap (her head is upside-down) and rubs back and forth on me. she wants me to rub her belly & chin, if I don't she will give me a little nibble "reminder". lol. She's cute like that. She's done this since she was 6 months old and living in Atlanta.
It's 7:52PM now, I need to get off the forum and get ready for my 8PM Loa date...
Brad I heard a similar story of an Akita that I read on an akita rescue site.
The Akita went everywhere with the husband and they did everything together. The husband died, and the wife didn't want anything to do with the dog, she hated the dog as she felt her husband love the pup more than her. She dropped the Akita off at the rescue, and the pups was showing signs of depression. It stopped eating, drinking and just laid there. One of the ladies took it from a kennel situation and fostered the pup (I think). It didn't show any signs of perking up, so she brought the akita to the vet to see if it was a medical reason. At first the dog would not allow itself to be examined and fought being put on the table. The vet said that the akita just doesn't want to live any more, and the better thing to do would be to put the dog to sleep instead of allowing it to continue to suffer. Once the decision was made, the akita did not fight when picked up onto the table, and even wagged it's tale. After the injection, the akita was looking past everyone in the room and seemed to be smiling, as if it was seeing the husband once again.
Wow Chrystal, that's perfect! Conveyed exactly what I was thinking, only much more eloquently.
"what matters is what the parties in a relationship get out of it, whatever we each call it to have meaning to us." That's a great point too! I focused on our perceptions of dog behavior, but the same goes the other way. For all we know, dog's view our behavior in a completely different light---through their own lens. What we intend to be loving, may be a pack building behavior. What we intend to be playful may reinforce a social structure we don't understand.
I'm reminded of the old philosophical debate about "referential totality", a term coined by Heidegger. "As the ego cogito, subjectivity is the consciousness that represents something, relates this representation back to itself, and so gathers with itself." That is, everything we know and understand is based on an entire world of context that we are continually constructing from the time we are born until the time we die. To think that dogs have the capacity to have the same referential totality that we as humans do is pretty much unreasonable. What is important though, is that we can come to a common understanding that enables us to function or communicate with each other, even if we understand that agreement completely differently.
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@Brad: You're most definitely not a wet blanket! Your insights are invaluable. You're perspective is unique, and I for one am grateful with all you share with us. Especially when they are endearing stories like that one of Loa!
BTW, I think Ahi still is that rare mythical creature. It's just one of those situations where the book has gotten too close to your face so you can't read the words. Make the decision to adjust your focus and you'll be able to start reading again. :-)
I'm not sure if this actually belongs on this post but bear with me.I think you all know I have two shibas, Levi,a 7yr male sesame & Gin a 2yr. red female. Prior to joining the forum I had never heard of a shikoku. I posted a few pics. of Levi on facebook and I recieved a flood of comments that refered to him as a Shikoku,so I wanted to find out just what a Shikoku was.This is how I found the forum. I have read every word and watched every video on every post about the Shikoku . I have also met many many shibas. It's really wierd but Levi actually seems to be more Shika than Shiba.I know he is a full blooded shiba, I met his parents & he is akc registered.
Levi is 27 lbs.he is unbelievably connected with his suroundings & me. I walk him for miles everyday in the country "off leash" he listens to me 99% of the time . His connection, trust & loyalty with me is like no other shiba I have ever heard of. We seem to have an unspoken bond & connection , he knows by looking in my eyes what I expect of him & he does just that. Funny Brad you bring up your 8 pm. Loa ritual, I have an simmilar ritual with Levi at 6am with a cup of coffee on the couch.I 've also noticed that many shikas seem to make numerous crazy sounds ,so does Levi. There is no way I can fully explain everything in writing, but it is really strange you would have to see it everyday to see what I mean. Gin on the other hand is the typical Shiba & displays all the typical behaviors of a Shiba. This is why I asked the original question about shika loyalty.
I don't know if it's loyalty or not but recently I've been going upstairs to bed before John, Tiger seems to know when I'm going upstairs to settle down and he comes up and lies next to my side of the bed on the floor. Every night, despite the fact he still acts as though John is number 1 and can do no wrong. It's our little thing and I love it. Same goes for it John goes up before I do, Ti will stay downstairs until I go and then follow me up.
Comments
I would say on my n=1, Shikoku are highly loyal. But unlike Brad's comment, they don't sit and "wait" like Akita. Instead they might run back and forth at the fenceline vs just wait. And often bark and yipe because you are outside the fence and they cannot get to you. My experience.
Then there is this: when we dropped Loa off at Peggy's house she howled for the first few nights for her family, that sounds loyal to me - or was that just loneliness? I'm not sure Ahi would do that.... but when Ahi was a pup she almost killed a Shiba for attacking Hilo when he was a baby, I think that is a loyal gesture - standing up for her family - or that just territorial?
Then again, in working on the CGC test with Akita and Shikoku, when we did the "2 minutes with a stranger" part (where you leave the dog alone with a stranger) Loa could care less that we had left her with a person as long as she thought they were "fun" people to be with, while the Akita got a little upset - not stressed - but just concerned with where we went (by watching the door and not paying much attention to the "stranger").
I honestly feel the term "loyal" is a bit vague (I feel that way about a lot of dog terms). err... maybe a bit anthropomorphizing. The term's definition is "steadfast in allegiance or duty". By that definition I would say an Akita is loyal and a Shikoku is just self-centered (they want to be with you because you are fun or pleasing to them). LOL.
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Beth, if wanting to be with you = loyal, than Kuma is way more loyal than any of the Siberians I owned...They loved me but didn't care if I was in a different room. But then again Ahi doesn't care either, eh, Brad! LOL!
reforming derailer
But then I start to ruin it, by thinking about the behavior that Hachikō is doing in that story, and the concepts that it implies, and I realize, he was probably just inadvertently trained to do those things.
If the Japanese fellow in the movie always went to work and returned at the same time, and Hachikō went with, and valued his time spent with his "master" (and lets not forget that he got treats from vendors during the walk to and from the train station - per the original movie/story), then he was basically being reinforced for going to the train station at that time every day. Add that to the fact I know Akita LOVE having a routine and, well, it becomes less of a loyal gesture and more of a selfish one, no?
Jen and I chatted about this and came to the conclusion that we don;'t think you would really see "loyalty" from your dog everyday. We think it would be a special thing, something you would rarely see - like Hachikō. Perhaps the loyalty that Hachikō showed was not the routine of going to the station (and then going after his master passed) but really the waiting for his mater to return?
I heard a story once about an Akita who's owner passed away. This Akita was always very happy and loving with his owner. When his owner passed away he was adopted by a family friend. The Akita was so upset by his owner's death that he wouldn't eat. He became very ill, and emaciated. The new owner did everything they could for the Akita, vets, foods, specialists, drugs - everything - but the Akita wouldn't eat. Years went by with the dog barely eating and slowly withering away till finally the new owner decided all they could do was put the Akita to sleep. They took him to the vet to be put down, and when they got him on the table to give him the shot he began to wag his tail and became excited - as if he knew he would see his owner soon - over the rainbow bridge. This was the first, last, and only time the dog had wagged his tail and appeared happy since his owner was alive.
To me, that is loyalty - and complex enough of a chain of behaviors and timeline to where I cannot draw a solid training/behavioral connection to ruin the loyalty aspect of the story. Do I think he really knew he was going over the bridge? No, I don't, but the chain of event that lead to that point seems very "loyal".
Of our dogs I see only a few of them as having the aptitude to do what that Akita did: Ahi, Hilo, Kona, Blue, & Masha. With Ahi, I don't think she would really do that tho. Blue might, Masha too. Hilo would probably be depressed - but not take it that far. But I dunno about Ahi, or Kona and those feelings are based only on my feelings - perhaps, if I connected with Lani or Fuji the way I do with the dogs named above, they would show this type of Loyalty?
So... that is a story of loyalty, Hachikō is another example - but with Akita.
Do any of you know of any story like that for the Shikoku?
----
Bear with me for a minute here and let's go back a few thousand years to the time wolves were evolving into domestic dogs. We've had a number of discussion before about how it was dogs who domesticated themselves. The dogs who were able to overcome their fears and seek food from human communities were the ones that thrived. As I understand it, nobody knows for sure what happened next, but what makes sense in my head is those dogs that were friendliest with people were the ones that got taken care of the most. If that's the case, it's not a large leap of faith to believe that the humans that were "taking care" of those dogs were favoring the dogs they felt the best connection with---the dogs they could "understand". Back then, there was very little understanding of dog/wolf psychology (that we know of) and, for that matter, probably very little understanding of human psychology too. So, anther way of saying that is that the dogs that behaved in ways they could easily anthropomorphize were those that thrived and, by natural selection, were able to reproduce and pass those behaviors on to their progeny.
Bearing that in mind, consider the modern domestic dog. The popularity of dogs today is, IMO, due in large part to people being able to apply human psychology to their behavior---to anthropomorphize them. In that context, I ask: Does it really matter if a dog is "loyal"? Or is it enough that we perceive a dog's actions to be loyal? A deeper understanding of dog psychology and behavior can enable us to explain away a lot of anthropomorphized behaviors like jealousy or love. But does it matter? Perhaps a dog's behavior that we perceive as love is really a very selfish act or a sequence of behaviors that have been reinforced over time to become essentially a FAP. But, IMO, what matters in our relationship with dogs is what we get out of it. So if we perceive that behavior as love, why not call it love and love them right back?
Just my $0.02.
"..a book on dogs must by definition be anthropomorphic...We are not the only species to apply our values and our experience when interpreting other creatures. Dogs do it too, sometimes with no more luck than the psychiatrist. When a dog with a bone menaces a human observer, the dog actually assumes that the person wants the slimy dirt-laden object, and is applying dog values, or cynomorphizing."
Anthropomorphize away, I say. Dave is right- what matters is what the parties in a relationship get out of it, whatever we each call it to have meaning to us.
So, to the OP, you would need to define qualities that you feel are loyal for us to properly answer your question, no?
Jen and I have a few dogs now, a variety, I love them all and feel they enrich our life. I love having the different breeds and types - and such extreme types - as it gives me a better perspective on our Nihonken, who are my first and true dog love. On the other hand tho, sometimes I think learning as much as I have, and seeing as much as I have seen with our dogs has limited my ability to "feel" my dogs.
I remember when we first got Ahi and how she turned our world upside-down, she was like a rare mythical creature to us - or a wild animal that we shouldn't have. In a lot of ways I hate that I have lost that feeling, but in other ways I LOVE where I am now and what I have learned.
In a way, I have been let down by my experiences. I really bought into the folktales of the different breeds; I love the history and their origin, and I love the stories of them in their native lands, but I have realized those stories are exactly that: stories. Society has made it so a lot of those stories cannot ever be experienced again, and that's kinda sad to me.
To watch new owners go through the same thing is just really special, that is why I love this forum.
Sometimes I wonder if my view has become somewhat "wet blanket" to the new owners and enthusiasts. If it has, I apologize.
On that note, here is a story about Loa and her loyalty...
Every night, around 8PM, I head to the couch to chill with Jen and watch a few shows. No matter what Loa is doing, even if she is outside across the yard, when she sees me sit down on the couch, she comes running over and jumps up to sit right next to me. Then, every night, like clock work, about 5 minutes after sitting there she falls back on her back and lays the top of her head on my lap (her head is upside-down) and rubs back and forth on me. she wants me to rub her belly & chin, if I don't she will give me a little nibble "reminder". lol. She's cute like that. She's done this since she was 6 months old and living in Atlanta.
It's 7:52PM now, I need to get off the forum and get ready for my 8PM Loa date...
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The Akita went everywhere with the husband and they did everything together. The husband died, and the wife didn't want anything to do with the dog, she hated the dog as she felt her husband love the pup more than her. She dropped the Akita off at the rescue, and the pups was showing signs of depression. It stopped eating, drinking and just laid there. One of the ladies took it from a kennel situation and fostered the pup (I think). It didn't show any signs of perking up, so she brought the akita to the vet to see if it was a medical reason. At first the dog would not allow itself to be examined and fought being put on the table. The vet said that the akita just doesn't want to live any more, and the better thing to do would be to put the dog to sleep instead of allowing it to continue to suffer. Once the decision was made, the akita did not fight when picked up onto the table, and even wagged it's tale. After the injection, the akita was looking past everyone in the room and seemed to be smiling, as if it was seeing the husband once again.
"what matters is what the parties in a relationship get out of it, whatever we each call it to have meaning to us." That's a great point too! I focused on our perceptions of dog behavior, but the same goes the other way. For all we know, dog's view our behavior in a completely different light---through their own lens. What we intend to be loving, may be a pack building behavior. What we intend to be playful may reinforce a social structure we don't understand.
I'm reminded of the old philosophical debate about "referential totality", a term coined by Heidegger. "As the ego cogito, subjectivity is the consciousness that represents something, relates this representation back to itself, and so gathers with itself." That is, everything we know and understand is based on an entire world of context that we are continually constructing from the time we are born until the time we die. To think that dogs have the capacity to have the same referential totality that we as humans do is pretty much unreasonable. What is important though, is that we can come to a common understanding that enables us to function or communicate with each other, even if we understand that agreement completely differently.
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@Brad: You're most definitely not a wet blanket! Your insights are invaluable. You're perspective is unique, and I for one am grateful with all you share with us. Especially when they are endearing stories like that one of Loa!
BTW, I think Ahi still is that rare mythical creature. It's just one of those situations where the book has gotten too close to your face so you can't read the words. Make the decision to adjust your focus and you'll be able to start reading again. :-)
Levi is 27 lbs.he is unbelievably connected with his suroundings & me. I walk him for miles everyday in the country "off leash" he listens to me 99% of the time . His connection, trust & loyalty with me is like no other shiba I have ever heard of. We seem to have an unspoken bond & connection , he knows by looking in my eyes what I expect of him & he does just that. Funny Brad you bring up your 8 pm. Loa ritual, I have an simmilar ritual with Levi at 6am with a cup of coffee on the couch.I 've also noticed that many shikas seem to make numerous crazy sounds ,so does Levi. There is no way I can fully explain everything in writing, but it is really strange you would have to see it everyday to see what I mean. Gin on the other hand is the typical Shiba & displays all the typical behaviors of a Shiba. This is why I asked the original question about shika loyalty.