Choosing to breed
I imagine anyone who has 'caught the nihon ken bug' considers breeding when they are invested in the Shikoku, Kai, Kishu, or Hokkaido. I would think Shiba and Akita have enough in the states already.
But why the breeding bug?
What makes you (owner/handler) and the dog (rare as they may be considered) worthy to be breeder/bred?
If we were to gauge what the general criteria has been on this forum, do all the potential breeders have enough experience and ground work to be a respected breeder amongst the breed community? Is there an established breed club to keep tabs on your activities?
Are all the breeding dogs health tested? Temperament tested? Proven themselves in one certified form or another (ring, field, etc)? All stack up in conformation?
Do the breeder dogs get daily stimulation and care? Quality food? Successful interaction with other people & dogs?
Are all the breedings planned for both the betterment of the breed and for the welfare of the individual dog?
Is the matched dog not at all related or is there a distant relation disclosed to future puppy owners?
Will the breeder be willing to take back every single dog they breed? Are there contracts? Health guarantees? Future owners required to do a meet and greet?
Is the breeder either involved in or closely engaged in the rescue efforts of the breed and related/like breeds?
These are criteria that have been said or implied on this forum, which is why I used them here.
What does it take to choose to breed one or more of the rarer nihon ken breeds responsibly (not necessarily successfully, but truly responsibly in all aspects)? And opposite that, why should someone who just owns one who is intact choose not to?
But why the breeding bug?
What makes you (owner/handler) and the dog (rare as they may be considered) worthy to be breeder/bred?
If we were to gauge what the general criteria has been on this forum, do all the potential breeders have enough experience and ground work to be a respected breeder amongst the breed community? Is there an established breed club to keep tabs on your activities?
Are all the breeding dogs health tested? Temperament tested? Proven themselves in one certified form or another (ring, field, etc)? All stack up in conformation?
Do the breeder dogs get daily stimulation and care? Quality food? Successful interaction with other people & dogs?
Are all the breedings planned for both the betterment of the breed and for the welfare of the individual dog?
Is the matched dog not at all related or is there a distant relation disclosed to future puppy owners?
Will the breeder be willing to take back every single dog they breed? Are there contracts? Health guarantees? Future owners required to do a meet and greet?
Is the breeder either involved in or closely engaged in the rescue efforts of the breed and related/like breeds?
These are criteria that have been said or implied on this forum, which is why I used them here.
What does it take to choose to breed one or more of the rarer nihon ken breeds responsibly (not necessarily successfully, but truly responsibly in all aspects)? And opposite that, why should someone who just owns one who is intact choose not to?
Comments
I would have to say that most of us probably don't have the experience right now to be a respected breeder, however I would say a few of us are so involved in the breed and have pretty good relationships with established breeders that we'd have someone to help us get started.
I would also hope that anyone on this forum who's been around long enough would follow the criteria you set forth.
I also think it takes a real passion and love for the breed and a huge amount of effort.
Dawn and I have discussed one day in the far off future when we're more established and have more free time. But it's only a discussion at this point. Obviously we couldn't breed Katsu or Tanuki as they'd both be fixed and even if they weren't I still wouldn't breed either of them. It's something I would love to do, but only if I had the time to do it right.
We had been talking Shibas but I'm really starting to fall in love with Kai's as a breed.
----
What points of the criteria do we overlook or forgive just to keep the gene pool swirling for the rarer breeds?
I can give you my opinion on what should really be expected from a breeder (and not a sensational wish-list like the one above), I can give you my opinion on why there are no breeders that meet the wish-list above, and I can give my opinion on the state of the Shikoku & Kai (the breeds I am personally focused on) in North America as well as what we can do for the bloodlines, but I cannot give a finalized answer of who should breed and why...
----
My opinion on what should really be expected from a breeder...
For the puppy buyer, they should expect the following from their selected breeder: Honesty, health checks, some validation of temperament**, open kennel (anyone is welcome to visit)^^, health guarantee, a solid contract, life-long support for your dog, first right of refusal on (re)placement of a dog in an emergency, and (at least) a 4 gen. pedigree w/ registry papers & COI.
- Optional "nice to haves": Titles on the sire and/or dam, proof of temperament testing, temperament guarantee, genetic test results, and involvement in a breed club.
A rescuer should expect the following from a breeder of their focused breed: Willingness to help, priority placement of rescued dogs over new pups sales, honesty.
A breed enthusiast should expect the following from a breeder of their focused breed: Honesty, support in/for research on the breed, involvement in a breed club, and accessibility (open kennel & contact via phone or email).
**I think this falls more on the puppy buyer than the breeder - you should meet the dogs you plan to buy your pup from, if you don't do that, and your pup comes with temperament issues, it is your fault for blindly buying from a breeder and not the breeders fault for producing the pup.
^^The way a breeder manages the animals in their kennel is a personal thing and if you, as the puppy buyer, don't agree with their management style then you, as the puppy buyer, should not buy from that breeder. In short, as long as all the dogs in the breeder's kennel receive the proper individual care, there is no right or wrong way of managing a kennel.
----
My opinion on why there are no breeders that meet the wish-list above...
Simple: money, unrealistic demands from different communities, and social pressure. To meet a number of the items above, a kennel needs to be run as a business, but to openly run a kennel as a business is considered taboo. So, this means, the only way one can accomplish the goals listed above is to have LOADS OF MONEY and TIME to dedicate to their breeding program - but most rich people are rich because they work hard at their career, and therefore don't have time to focus HUGE efforts on breeding dogs.
It would be neat if members of a breed club would donate large sums of cash to a pool that would then be used to import new bloodlines lines that were selected by a committee... That would reduce the extreme costs of breeding a rare breed for the breeder and allow them to focus on your list above. But with all the crazies in the dog world, and the over-the-top politics, I don't see that ever happening.
----
My opinion on the state of the Shikoku & Kai bloodlines...
The Shikoku and the Kai is in need of new bloodlines in the US, maybe even more so for the Shikoku than the Kai now. If someone loves the breeds, wants to help the breed (and isn't just interested in the breeds for the "cool" and "elite" factor), and is willing to spend the $ to import, then it would be helpful for the breed to join with a reputable breeder and keep your imported Kai or Shikoku intact until it is clear whether they would be an acceptable member of the breeders breeding program (testing, confirmation, whatever).
Assuming your imported pup is acceptable for breeding, do one breeding w/ your selected (reputable) breeder before your pet is altered. This would help the bloodlines of the breeds in the US instead of simply importing a pet.
If new lines of both breeds (and the Hokka & Kishu) are not imported into North America soon, the breeds will die off in the North America, and we will be forced to start over - or the breeds will become grossly inbred (which has already started happening to the Kai).
----
If you have done your research you should be able to say better than "she's a reputable breeder." You ought to be able to say "I am waitlisted for a pup from Brindlicious Kai Kennels because although they don't title the dogs, they focus mostly on temperament and provide a lot of puppy enrichment, I like the home environment the dogs are raised in, feel good rapport with the breeder over the course of our conversations and visits, and the mother of this litter is super sweet and calm, while dad carries a really nice akatora."
I think this thread is good to think on because it's not all or nothing, reputable/not, its finding one who fits the criteria important to you. (one will hope that those include the basic responsible characteristics, as Brad outlines) This word "Reputable" just means "has a reputation" and reputations are just what *other* people think. I think "responsible" is slightly better, but still too highly subjective. Maybe there is no one word, and I just want MORE depth when we babble on about this or that breeder. I mean they are known/have a reputation for different qualities and practices.
(or maybe I oughta button it, since I have animal shelter mutts!
Now this brings about a pandora's box of dog ownership. Is there a possible service to be created to use a breeder as a puppy broker amongst international importation such that owners who have the resources and $ to import a puppy, can have a conditional contract. I know I wouldn't be the only person on this forum (or the shiba one) to say they've entertained the idea of getting a Shikoku, but would also want to help further the breed in the U.S. (without fully becoming a breeder themselves). Not that this presents the panacea to the problem, but I think it does present an opportunity for reputable breeders to approach wait-listed dog owners with an alternative for their puppy.
Jesse
The "wish list" is more a part of the endless compilation of advice given on this & the shiba forum, between the articles and help tab, to what people are told when they join searching for a breeder pup... There is a ton of advice given but I've yet to find a single breeder who does all of the above (which doesn't include every piece of advice ever given here!), at least for the rarer of the Nihon Ken.
I guess this is a sort of journey for me to define what "reputable" or "responsible" means in regards to a breeder of any breed of dog. I'm not sure I can answer that yet.
Truthfully, there is probably the desire to be part of something bigger than themselves, to help preserve and promote an "ancient" breed in its infant stage in another country. I wouldn't consider that bad by itself, as long as the person who does this does not "live through the dog" so that their self-esteem cannot bear any criticism on the dog, or they shut down and refuse guidance from more experienced owners/breeders.
What makes you (owner/handler) and the dog (rare as they may be considered) worthy to be breeder/bred?
No one starts out as instant experts. What makes the difference in my mind is whether one is seeking and utilizing mentors to gain knowledge and get help. As for the dog being worthy to be bred, it does depend on what a person (or mentor) is aiming for. Genetic diversity vs. immediate health, workability vs. type, structure vs. temperament, and the different multitude of factors that a breeder has to gauge and balance out.
If we were to gauge what the general criteria has been on this forum, do all the potential breeders have enough experience and ground work to be a respected breeder amongst the breed community? Is there an established breed club to keep tabs on your activities?
Truthfully, relying on breed clubs to determine who is or is not reputable/responsible is a bunch of baloney. Having a breed club "police" is a fantasy as disagreements on what constitutes an infraction lead to another breed club being formed or people simply refusing to deal with breed clubs at all. Conversely, it leads to a false sense of assurance on the part of the puppy buyer that a breeder with a breed club is reputable/responsible and then that puppy buyer does not do additional research.
And opposite that, why should someone who just owns one who is intact choose not to?
Though it's the mentality in the US, having an intact dog is not always connected to breeding or irresponsibility. Europeans do not generally spay/neuter and consider those surgeries mutilation surgeries in the same vein as cropping.
Honestly, if I were breeding, I would not do the open kennel whereby anyone is welcome to visit. That person would need a referral from someone I knew. Pics to anyone, yes. Meet at shows or outside events, yes, but no kennel visits for strangers. Parvo and theft are only two of many things that could go wrong.
A rescuer should expect the following from a breeder of their focused breed... priority placement of rescued dogs over new pups sales...
Curious on what limits would you place on this though? Someone could start re-naming spitzy shelter dogs as Shikoku and Shikoku mixes, or Kai and Kai mixes, capitalizing on the "rare breed" factor or "this dog came from the Japantown area." Would you stop planning litters then?
It would be neat if members of a breed club would donate large sums of cash to a pool that would then be used to import new bloodlines lines that were selected by a committee... That would reduce the extreme costs of breeding a rare breed for the breeder and allow them to focus on your list above.
Sounds like a breeder co-op. I think this is common in Japan whereby a top quality expensive stud is purchased by a group led by a senior mentor, and shared among a small breeder co-op.
But with all the crazies in the dog world, and the over-the-top politics, I don't see that ever happening.
Probably true in the Kai world. Surely there's hope in the Shikoku world?
Honestly, if I were breeding, I would not do the open kennel whereby anyone is welcome to visit. That person would need a referral from someone I knew. Pics to anyone, yes. Meet at shows or outside events, yes, but no kennel visits for strangers. Parvo and theft are only two of many things that could go wrong.
-- I see your points, and I'm sure that's an issue for some kennels. I personally wouldn't trust a breeder that was not open for me to visit with or without a referral. I can see someone being hesitant that I had not communicated prior to the visit, I may require a few emails and/or calls before the visit.
Curious on what limits would you place on this though? Someone could start re-naming spitzy shelter dogs as Shikoku and Shikoku mixes, or Kai and Kai mixes, capitalizing on the "rare breed" factor or "this dog came from the Japantown area." Would you stop planning litters then?
-- For me (IMHO), sorry, no mixes. I certainly would help find a mix a home, but I wouldn't try to place them with a potential puppy owner. It would need to be proven to me that it was a Shikoku or Kai... Like an owner give up or be very clear that the dog is 100% Shikoku or Kai based on looks/temp.
Probably true in the Kai world. Surely there's hope in the Shikoku world?
-- Surely there is. A few of us are working on something like this now.
----
Reputations have a tendency of following people around, so what other respected people in the dog community perceive you as (the metaphorical you) will dictate the oppurtunities you have with breeding in the future. If you are ethical and responsible, that will speak volumes over taking shortcuts to acheive the same end. In my experience, as I am fully aware that nobody is born knowing all things about breeding, it can take years of first hand experience (trialing, showing, living with, being mentored by other well respected established breeders, going to events, handling lots and lots of good and poor examples of the breed pups, adults and seniors, etc) with a particular breed to really know it well enough to start breeding.
I've been at this since I was a child and I still will not breed yet or at all. Actually, the only animals I have ever bred were mice, for my Boa. I think it is bad practice and unwise to breed before succesfully accomplishing these tasks and gaining the respect of peers. I would be disappointed in myself if I failed to do these things and just skipped onto breeding. Breeding ought to be one of the final steps in the journey of getting to know a breed, and it is the living application of all the knowledge gained. Otherwise it is just practicing and the individual dog deserves more than being a test subject.
"Show me a current breeder of any Nihonken that meets all of the above expectations."
This sort of sounds like a cop-out and justification to NOT do all the hard work involved with shepherding a breed along.
Brad, it's really a shame that you haven't "been in dogs" long enough to have apparently ever had the oppurtunity to meet the many really stellar breeders of nihonken that DO follow Jen's "sensational wish-list" for their breeding programs. The knowledge and experience they have is worth knowing. Why re-invent the wheel? By not reaching out to them and seeking critisisms you are really just confounding your efforts in breeding and run a high risk of becoming kennel blind without competing, judging or working the dogs alongside your peers' dogs.
Just my candid opinions based on experience, this isn't an attack on anybody or their dogs. I would expect a friend, peer or mentor to tell me the same things if I was lacking in any way and needed a different point of view.
I noticed after reading a bunch of dog books that there is a long list of items that a reputable breeder should do. For example, each puppy should be potty trained and know how to sit and stay before going to their new homes. How many breeders do that?? The list of things a reputable breeder should do grows and grows every day.
I think it takes years to set up a really good breeding program and good breeders shouldn't fall to social pressures and demand to pump out more pups, but take their time and do what is best for the breed instead. If a potential dog owner really desires for a certain dog, they will wait.
I have not the knowledge or time to breed shikoku, but would love to contribute money to import fresh lines. Just need to know how. :D I really think we can set up the shikoku for success.
When I wrote "Show me a current breeder of any Nihonken that meets all of the above expectations." I was just voicing my opinion, from my experience in Nihonken and other breeds.
Since I have "been in dogs", I have met many mentors; breeders who have been very successful in the breeds they focused on, and breeders who were walking a different path than the typical breeder path, as well as breeders who follow the typical path for a breeder.
One breed I don't focus on, and have little interest in (from a breeding stand point), is the Shiba. You, Lindsay, are in Shiba, so perhaps you know some breeders in that breed that fit ALL of the criteria Jen listed above.
For me, with all of my efforts in Akita, Shikoku, and Kai I have not met a breeder that meets ALL the criteria listed above in the "sensational wish-list". I have, however, met breeders that strive to meet all of those things. Perhaps you feel striving to meet those things and actually meeting them is one and the same, I do not feel that way.
Jen (my wife) and I work closely with Marian, Katja, Peggy, and Corina, as well as breeders in Japan, on the Shikoku and the Kai. We are working on efforts to ensure those breeds have a future to stand on in North America. The Kai and the Shikoku are in a different place than your Shiba, and efforts need to be focused accordingly, and we are working to do that.
The mentors I have, I respect highly, and I feel they are some of the best breeders in their selected breed; some of them are very "showy" (like you) and others are less into the show ring - neither are right or wrong - they just have a different angle, and without seeing the situation (breeding dogs) from multiple angles one cannot truly understand all of the intricacies that goes into breeding. We all need to be open minded and understand that all breeders have different goals, and, assuming the goals are not dangerous for the breed, we should be accepting of those different goals.
So while you, Lindsay, preach to me, and say I will become kennel blind for not being involved in the show ring, I say to you: if all you do is concern yourself with the show ring, AKC, and titles, you too will become kennel blind (or perhaps you already have).
The irony of your statement is that I see the exact opposite in you: Lindsay, it's really a shame that you haven't "been in dogs" long enough to see that there are no perfect breeders and none of them meet ALL of the criteria listed above in Jen's "sensational wish-list"... And so, to me, your comment above (directed at me) sounds like a "cop-out and justification to NOT" see the reality of the breeding world.
Before you pass brash judgment on me, on a public forum like this, I invite you, Lindsay, to come and visit our dogs, and our home, and have a conversation with me and my wife about what we are doing for our breeds, and who our mentors are, and how they have helped us. Until you do that, I am not sure you have proper ammunition to attack us.
----
For the sake of clarity, Lindsay is claiming to know a breeder that...
- Works with an established breed club to keep tabs on your activities.
- Has all the breeding dogs health tested.
- Does temperament tests. (this means ATTS or CGC)
- Has proven themselves in one certified form or another (ring, field, etc).
- Has dogs that all stack up in conformation.
- Their dogs get daily stimulation and care. (<- subjective)
- Their dogs eat <i>quality food. (<- subjective)
- Their dogs successful interaction with other <i>people & dogs. (<- subjective)
- Has all the breedings planned for both the betterment of the breed and for the welfare of the individual dog. (<- subjective)
- Only breeds dogs that are <i>not at all related or is there a distant relation disclosed to future puppy owners.
- They are willing to take back every single dog they breed.
- They have contracts.
- They have health guarantees.
- Future owners required to do a meet and greet.
- The breeder is either involved in or closely engaged in the rescue efforts of the breed and related/like breeds.
So, again, I ask you to show me a breeder that MEETS ALL of this criteria.
----
There IS a difference between breeding a long-established breed such as a Rottweiler, for instance, and a rare breed few in number. Some compromises have to be made. For instance, there aren't strong breed clubs around in all cases. They are developing, but they aren't there yet, so it's a bit unfair to require someone wanting a Kishu, for example, to have this. The Kishu here in the U.S. has a "registry" and it's confidential.
Secondly, apart from breeding away from temperament problems and health problems, with a rare breed I should think the emphasis should be on keeping the gene pool expanded, not narrowing it down to show lines or field/hunting lines. I found that in Swedish Vallhunds, there wasn't so much emphasis in "improving" the breed so much as maintaining the health and vigor of the dogs coming from Sweden and Finland. Not that they were ALL sterling examples, and I do think in general the nihonken dogs seem to be sound, good quality (you might get some argument about that re the Japanese Akita). So if the idea is to breed to another sound, healthy, health-checked, good temperamented dog without regard to his show ring record present or absent, is it so important for anyone to actually be in a show ring? Better in fact to cross lines between show dogs and hunting dogs anyhow, to keep hunting instincts strong. From what I'm gathering, having a dog that hunts as a pet is not an impossible feat, so why not have both in the same dog, whether he ever actually hunts or not? These dogs seem sensible, reasonable dogs to live with. Hunting doesn't seem to ruin them as good companions.
What I'm getting at is that in other breeds, there is much more emphasis on "improving the breed" -- that's all you read about in those breed columns and articles in the AKC Gazette. In rare breeds, you can't be that picky. You maybe breed to maintain the quality that you have. It took me a while to accept this simple little difference.
Thirdly, dogs getting daily stimulation and care. I've seen many of the video clips and there is a big difference between someone who has 14 dogs in kennel runs and 14 dogs running freely together. Those free dogs are happy -- I realize nobody suggested that they weren't. I'm just saying.
Fourth, I've known a few really high quality breeders who give their puppies lots of enrichment, enhanced playpens and playyards, lots of socializing with people and kids and neighbors and even other dogs and cats. None of those puppies really knew Sit and Down -- that's a nicety but not a necessity for a 7-8 week old puppy. Most of them are sort of trained to waddle off to a corner to eliminate, either on paper or those piddle pads or whatever they are, but that's about it for "housebreaking." The real training falls to the new owner whose duty and responsibility is to continue and expand the training. (and for the record, I don't like newspaper-breaking. I don't want my puppy to think he can go in the house, ever, even on newspaper. You'll just have to break him of it later.)
And lastly, no breeder has dogs that ALL stack up with perfect conformation. Some pups will be better than others. The most you can hope for is that the majority are sound, sturdy, healthy. If you start from good sound stock, you're not going to get cow-hocked, sway-backed, super-ugly dogs just out of the blue. I think the gene pool is stronger than that. You'd have to go out of your way to continue breeding ugly, sway-backed, to other ugly, sway-backed dogs.... Your best move is to try to research what the dam/sire look like and behave like, and also examine past litters, grandparents. If you have quality all around, your chances are much better in getting another quality dog.