Of Hunting & Nihon Ken II
Moihahahahah! Time for more Osy questions! [ ok, I lie, these are hubby's questions that he's making me ask 
]
First off, thanks to all the hunters on here that have been helping answer questions both on & off the forum, love you guys! Hope you can continue to bare with me as I rack your brains
Being that Osy is under 21 & unable to buy her gun yet [ oh cruel world! ] until June, we have obviously, not been able to start hunting or nething even close to it yet...so...you know what that means...research, research, research til then!
So... the questions!
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o1. We were curious, obviously it's best to start training a pup on the type of game we want them to hunt young, what we were interested in tho was...let's say we train our pup to [ successfully ] hunt Turkey, then later on decide to go after summit like Deer....is it possible to train them on different game after they've already learned one? Or must we start training them on both types from puppyhood?
o2. I've read, & you all have said, that it's best to have hunting pups run with more experiences dogs in order to learn best...now...the odds of finding other hunting nihon-ken in FL are probably non existent, so would it be "best" to run them with other hunting types [ like hounds? ] or to just not run them with other dogs at all? [ still no idea how we're even going to do summit remotely like this, as whilst we know hunters, none of them use dogs ]
o3. I know it's best to start the dog off young on hunting techniques, but obviously, since neither of us have hunted before, we want to learn how to hunt ourselves before bringing dogs into the picture! So, is it possible to have an [ older ] pup learn to hunt? If it takes US two years to learn, & the pup is 2 or 3 years old before his first hunt, can HE still learn?
o4. Now, this one really perplexes me...how does the dog know WHAT to hunt? IE: If you take them out, how does he know "Ok! It's deer time!" or "Yes! We're going after boar!" I know, I'm having a slow moment, but really...how do you "tell" the dog which one it is time to hunt?
We're still not sure if hunting w/ dogs is going to be possible, or even "for us" but at the very least I would like to train them to track game. I think it'd be a waist not to use some of those instincts.
Oh, & if someone would rather speak over the phone rather then typing all this out, let me know & we can swap numbers. [ hell, if anyone just wants to talk nihon ken in general, give me a ring ]
Thanks guys, again, you all have been so helpful thus far! Bare with me whilst we try to figure this all out lol ~
]First off, thanks to all the hunters on here that have been helping answer questions both on & off the forum, love you guys! Hope you can continue to bare with me as I rack your brains
Being that Osy is under 21 & unable to buy her gun yet [ oh cruel world! ] until June, we have obviously, not been able to start hunting or nething even close to it yet...so...you know what that means...research, research, research til then!
So... the questions!
---
o1. We were curious, obviously it's best to start training a pup on the type of game we want them to hunt young, what we were interested in tho was...let's say we train our pup to [ successfully ] hunt Turkey, then later on decide to go after summit like Deer....is it possible to train them on different game after they've already learned one? Or must we start training them on both types from puppyhood?
o2. I've read, & you all have said, that it's best to have hunting pups run with more experiences dogs in order to learn best...now...the odds of finding other hunting nihon-ken in FL are probably non existent, so would it be "best" to run them with other hunting types [ like hounds? ] or to just not run them with other dogs at all? [ still no idea how we're even going to do summit remotely like this, as whilst we know hunters, none of them use dogs ]
o3. I know it's best to start the dog off young on hunting techniques, but obviously, since neither of us have hunted before, we want to learn how to hunt ourselves before bringing dogs into the picture! So, is it possible to have an [ older ] pup learn to hunt? If it takes US two years to learn, & the pup is 2 or 3 years old before his first hunt, can HE still learn?
o4. Now, this one really perplexes me...how does the dog know WHAT to hunt? IE: If you take them out, how does he know "Ok! It's deer time!" or "Yes! We're going after boar!" I know, I'm having a slow moment, but really...how do you "tell" the dog which one it is time to hunt?
We're still not sure if hunting w/ dogs is going to be possible, or even "for us" but at the very least I would like to train them to track game. I think it'd be a waist not to use some of those instincts.
Oh, & if someone would rather speak over the phone rather then typing all this out, let me know & we can swap numbers. [ hell, if anyone just wants to talk nihon ken in general, give me a ring ]
Thanks guys, again, you all have been so helpful thus far! Bare with me whilst we try to figure this all out lol ~
Comments
I have been going to these Women's Instructional Shoots held at area ranges and clubs. It's really fun to go and try a bunch of diff firearms and see what each is like, what you like and don't like, what you are better at, worse at, etc. Typically they run a safety seminar in the beginning for a couple hours, which in Mass gets you a certificate you can take to the Police to apply for a license (Dont know what Florida requires, as there is huge variance between regs in diff places) and the rest of the day you rotate through diff ranges trying pistols, rifles, shotguns, archery, blackpowder. I have been to several of these and found everyone very eager to share knowledge, encouraging, found that I am not too horrible at trap shooting, that blackpowder people are so very laid back, that I have tremendous respect for bowhunters patience and skill, I am not strong enough to aim double action revolvers smoothly AND in good groupings, that I can hit a NECCO wafer quite far out with a scoped .22, but that an M1 carbine is my fave. These events are cheap, friendly and you learn a lot- if they have them in Massachusetts, they must have them in other states. Look up BOW- Becoming an Outdoorswoman- its run by state wildlife depts nationwide:
oh, here you go: here's Florida's:
http://myfwc.com/SAFETY/Safety_hunt_safety_becoming_an_outdoors_woman.htm
The first Shooting Sampler I went to was through BOW. they also have weekends where you can learn tracking, game dressing and cooking, turkey hunts, deer hunts, fishing, edible plants, etc. Ours here in Mass runs an Upland bird dogs workshop- and you dont need a dog to attend. So theres much you can do hands on while you wait for pup.
I will not attempt to tackle all of that at once . I know you are anxious to get a shika or Kia & begin to use them as hunting dogs. I really think you ,at this point should separate the two dreams. The reason I say this is because in Fl. I don't believe it is legal to hunt deer with dogs & if it is , you might not even like it. It also will put your dogs at great risk & I don't know if your are aware of all of the risks involved.Turkey hunting is "NOT" done with dogs nore can it be . That is a different style of hunting entirely.
Dogs hunt & go after the scent primarily according to what is breed into them. For example a beagle will naturally get excited at the scent of a rabbit more than any other scent. A pointer will naturally point at birds. Fox hounds naturally get excited & want to follow the scent of a fox. All "hunting " dogs are typically breed to specialize in a certain game.This is why as you begin to get into hunting you will find what type of hunting you enjoy the most.,and then you can get a dog that specializes in that game. Osy I can assist you via the phone...that would be much easier for me. I'd love to help!!
Dave --- No worries, like I said, we still want to hunt, it may be independently of the two dogs, we're just playing with ideas right now & collecting info. [ hence why I asked, if you can train an older dog to hunt ] if we managed to get pups tomorrow, there's no way we'd be hunting with them. We mainly want "hunting" nihon ken because of the type of personality / temperament they have. We really like "high drive" dogs, & even if we never ever hunt with them, we do still want to take them on long hikes [ like weekend hikes ] or camping & higher-drive dog, from what I've read, tend to enjoy that more.
At the very least I do want to train them to track [ w/ out hunting ] even if it's just scent based with hides as a sort of "game" [ the way people do agility, or rally, etc. ]
I didn't realize hunting Turkey w/ dogs was impossible tho. I know that's how turkey was originally hunted, & there are still people that do hunt turkey with dogs, tho I'm not quite sure what state / legalities of it. [ American Wild Turkey Hunting Dog Association. ]
If our dogs never hunt with us, I won't be "disappointed"
It is legal to hunt Deer w/ dogs in FL. We even have times of the year strictly used just for "training" the dogs to run. It's all very interesting. I know there are lots of risks involved, hunting in general is very risky business w/ or w/out dogs. & perhaps when we get out there "roughing" it, we wont want our dogs there at all, but at home safe.
But, then again, this IS what these guys were bred for. Deer, boar, bear, it's all dangerous, one of my uncles will tell you of an encounter he had with a wild pig that nearly killed him [ he was hunting dear & "stumbled" upon the pig ] but I guess that's all in the "thrill of the hunt" non?
At this point in time tho, as you say, it is very much a "dream." Would it be nice if we can pull it off? For sure! If we can't, or it's not possible, I'll find other stuff to work the dog's drive
But this IS something we are very interested in. When the time comes where we can actually start we're going to pick up a truck since neither of our cars can handle a kill. [ lancer & cr-v ] So we are going to go all out investment wise
Ok so let me start by saying thats absolutely awsome you are wanting to get more into hunting and with nihon ken also!! Ok so to tackle some of your questions.
#1 I believe the legal age for firearm purchase is 18 and I would start with a shotgun as it is a universal gun and you can hunt any thing from rabbits to deer/pigs by using the different shots. Some of the best ones to get and affordable is the Remington Model 870, mossberg model 500, or a benelli nova in 20 gauge or 12 gauge. (20ga is alot more forgiving on heavier loads). Most importantly take a hunter safety course and firearms instructional course before heading into the woods. Spend plenty of time at the range before attempting to shoot a animal. It is your responsibility as a hunter to make clean ethical shots and not to take a shot which may wound a animal.
#2 Although turkeys have long been hunted with dogs, its a different type of hunting that may not be suitable for a nihon ken. Turkeys are hunted with dogs in the fall by breaking up a flock by having a bird dog chase the flock apart, then the hunter conceals him/her self and the dog and call the busted flock back into shooting range.(its a ton of fun)
#3 Deer hunting with dogs is widely done but I would be careful about hunting on public grounds due to other hunters. But it can be done as I have done it my self.
#4 Nihon ken's can be hunted with hounds regardless of the game you are chasing but nihon ken's are some what quiet during the chase and bark when they bay the prey as hounds are more vocal following scent. You can also do what I did (hard way). Get the dogs out on game of your choice (stick with furbearing mammals). The best way is to get in on a penned hog to get the dog interested in the game on its own terms in a controlled environment. If you dont want to hunt hogs (crap load in Fl), you can chase rabbits, bobcats, or raccoons out in the field and see how your dog reacts that way.
#5 Understand that once you have trained hunting dogs,you must be very careful with your dogs. They may become abit more aggressive then non hunting dogs. They may become more agressive toward other dogs and animals even small children so be very careful.
#6 My line of thought is "if you shoot it you eat it" but I do shoot varmints that I do not eat, I dont think they taste really good.
#7 Make sure your dog is trained off leash and get a GPS dog tracking system (important).
Let me know if there is any thing else I can help you with.
2. Training is made easier if you have an experienced dog to show younger dogs what to do. But, it's doable without an older dog, just a bit more taxing on the hunter. As far as running them with other breeds, you will need to run your dog with dogs that hunt in the style you want it to hunt, or your dog will end up learning the wrong things. There's a fine line to this though, as long as you only run your dog with say hounds just to get them interested in hunting, or to experience being that close to prey, it may not be so bad. A lot of times when you run dogs together who's hunting styles don't match, it can end up being a negative learning experience, and could cause unwanted hunting behavior (ie self hunting), or loss of drive.
3. Training a dog to hunt at a few years old is not impossible. I've seen it done, but I think your chances are increased by starting early.
4. You can't 'tell' your dog what to hunt, you can however do all that is in your power to make hunting a certain animal more interesting for him. Playing with that animals scent/hide when they are pups introduces them to it's smell. Showing them the animal in controlled environments and encouraging wanted behavior (ie sniffing, baying, biting). Then when they're old enough to actually get out in the wild and hunt, making sure the prey you after is in the vicinity is important. If dogs chase something you don't want them to, there's not too much you can do (short of using a training collar, which I'm against). Best thing is positive reinforcement. When the dog chases the wrong thing, just ignore it, and wait for them to come back. When they are on the right prey, get excited about it, and praise them. Best thing you can do is to shoot the 'right' prey that your dog has flushed, as it reinforces the behavior, and the dog learns that if they flush the 'right' prey, the hunter will help them stop it.
Hope this helps! Pretty much every hunter out there seems to have their own ways/opinions on training dogs, so every once in a while you'll hear conflicting info. Just find what works for you. If you're planning on possibly hunting with your future dogs, getting out there yourself for a few seasons and getting some experience is a good idea. I hunted for 2 years just walking through the mountains by myself before getting any dogs.
Definately makes it easier to hunt a specific game animal although Riki has hunted bobcats and raccoons on top of hunting pigs and bears so its possible to hunt multiple species but not easy to train. I hunted Riki in the beginning with a black and tan coon hound to help Riki with learning to get onto game and he really started hunting more during his yearly adult years and Yuki during her first year. I have only used a training collar with my bird dogs as I have seen some of the Nihon kens turn into unhuntable dogs after being trained on a shock collar. It work well with labs and other bird dogs. Positive reinforcement is the way to go with the Japanese breeds.
I will find the video but over in Texas there is a company that specialize in hog removal. This company uses yellow labs as pig dogs and they swear by labs for pig hunting so you can take a dog that have proven as bird dogs and train them into baying big game.
But most importantly, go out and learn the art of hunting. Its a rewarding experience to fill you own frig with food harvested by your self.
" hunting in general is very risky business w/ or w/out dogs"
Not true. Relatively few hunting accidents. You're far more likely to die driving to your hunting grounds than you are while hunting. But do take a hunter safety course; your state surely offers courses and I've found them to be very helpful and informational.
I love rabbit meat, put in a pot with veggies and chicken broth, it makes for an awsome rabbit stew! Hunting is only risky if you make it risky. In the last 15 years I have hunted, I have NEVER had a negligent discharge of my gun or shoot some thing or some one on accident. You just need to pay attention to what you are doing and be mindful of your gun and its function. As a firearms instructor I do not believe in accidental discharge of a firearm, its either you pull the trigger or you dont and its the shooters responsibility to know their equipment.
We plan on hunting [ w/out dogs ] regardless, so any hunting advice in general is greatly appreciated!
The sort of "Risks" for dogs we were thinking of tho is Getting hit by a car [ a lot of roads wind in & out of hunting grounds here ] OR getting shot by another hunter. [ particularly, the shikoku since they look so much like wolves / coyotes ] & then of course, the dogs getting lost in general.
Now, nothing wrong with hunting w/ dogs...but a point Dave S. brought up to us [ that I hadn't really considered ] is the rarity of the breeds here in the states. I'd hate to lose a pup that could potentially help out the genepool a bit. [ let a lone, lose my dog in general! <-- I would be DEVASTATED ]
Remember, I've been waiting 2+ years to get a pup...I'd die if I lost him on a hunt
We will hunt by ourselves most definitely [ we're looking at Turkey right now, possibly Deer, Duck, Rabbit, or Pheasant later ] but with the dogs...we're trying to weigh possible benefits vs risk.
& as much as I would LOVE to hunt boar, just because I think it'd be incredibly exciting, I only want to hunt what I can eat, & we can't eat pork. We have a few religious views on hunting [ you hunt it, you eat it ] so boar is out of the question :P
[ Oh & we're in Osceola County [ Orlando / Kissimmee ] Florida, 5 minutes away from Disney, Sea World, Universal, etc. LOL ] ~
Even Kishus are rare here in the U.S. and if any thing happened to any of my dogs, I would be devastated. IMHO I feel that not wanting to work a dog becuase of its rarity is just continuing the cycle of lowering the breeds working abilities. Please dont misunderstand me I know Shikoku, Kishu, Kai hokkaidos are very rare and these breeds require a more diverse gene pool here in the U.S. but I feel that if you continue breeding these magnificent breeds just for show purpose or as a regular houe dog, in 10,15 years what kind of dogs will we have? Yes they will look great but what about their intended use? I think the idea should be is to build a diverse gene pool of Show, family and working quality dogs and revive some of the original intended use of these awsome dogs.
Hunting with the Japanese breeds is still almost unheard of here becuase no one really knows and its a dying tradition in Japan. There are more show quality nihonkens then actual working ones. I my self could have just got a couple plott hounds or some catahoulas and spend half the time to train and beable to shoot more animals but I fell in love with the Nihon ken back when I was 6 watching Nagareboshi gin. I want to revive the orginal hunting nihon ken, the ones that books were written about and the dogs that were remembered for their courage and relentless pursuite of big game. I really hope I didn't affend any one for expressing my own thoughts but this is just words from a hard core hunter and please take it as that.