What's the Straight Dope on keeping a breeding dog?
Learning about some of Brad's experiences with breeding and knowing that a few others here (Corina, Lindsay & others I cant think of fast enough..) have show dogs and breeding dogs, and some topics around the forum about keeping more shikoku in the breeding pool has got me thinking- what's the REAL lowdown on living with and managing intact dogs? Even if you are not a breeder yourself, but have a contract with a breeder for rights to include your dog in their program- what does it REALLY mean in real, daily life?
Here are some starter questions, others please add more:
What does it literally mean that the males "go crazy" when the girls are in heat?
Are they short tempered? Are they competitive? Do they destroy stuff in frustration, trying to get to a female? Are they physically manifesting "I can't mate and its killing me"? Do neutered males show greater interest in a females in heat as well?
Do the girls want to keep away or go to the boys?
Play helps dogs perform their FAPs- if you own a breeding animal, is it critical not to suppress "sex play" as they grow up before they are actually bred? I am especially thinking of males here.
Can people smell female dogs in heat? Is the bleeding manageable? How frustrated are the girls?
The reality of breeding dogs appears to involve travel, even last minute travel and lots of vet visits. It seems doubtful to me that true breeders can be in it for probably ANY money at all!
How does having intact males affect day to day activities, such as exercise? Do you still just go wherever you want to and exercise however you like, or must males always be leashed? What is the risk of male dogs taking off after coyotes in season if you live in a place where coyotes also live?
Here are some starter questions, others please add more:
What does it literally mean that the males "go crazy" when the girls are in heat?
Are they short tempered? Are they competitive? Do they destroy stuff in frustration, trying to get to a female? Are they physically manifesting "I can't mate and its killing me"? Do neutered males show greater interest in a females in heat as well?
Do the girls want to keep away or go to the boys?
Play helps dogs perform their FAPs- if you own a breeding animal, is it critical not to suppress "sex play" as they grow up before they are actually bred? I am especially thinking of males here.
Can people smell female dogs in heat? Is the bleeding manageable? How frustrated are the girls?
The reality of breeding dogs appears to involve travel, even last minute travel and lots of vet visits. It seems doubtful to me that true breeders can be in it for probably ANY money at all!
How does having intact males affect day to day activities, such as exercise? Do you still just go wherever you want to and exercise however you like, or must males always be leashed? What is the risk of male dogs taking off after coyotes in season if you live in a place where coyotes also live?
Comments
The boys: I have two un-neutered boys that run together, get along great etc. until a girl comes in season. They then get seperated. Some boys especially experienced studs may wine try anyway possible to get to a girl in season, some if she's out of site/out of mind. All boys are different. The books say you shouldn't scold male pups for "sex play" but honestly unless you stop him constantly I don't think it will affect him in the long run. Neutered males can and will breed a female, especially if he is a previously experienced stud. No pups will result, but he can do the deed.
It can get hectic with multiple unneutered/spayed dogs, but is managable.
Having a single intact male in my opinion has no bearing on how he should be kept with respect to excercise etc.
I do not breed at this time but have had plenty of both in the house in regard to rescue.
Well, if you have a breeding male and females going into heat it can cause all sorts discord in the pack. Your male can be a drooling worked up mess to the point of no eating just pining waiting for an opportunity to get his groove on. Also depends on the dog's age and if he is used to being used as a stud dog previously.
If you use the same yard there is a ton of marking from all the dogs. The female in heat can be really bitchy with other females and spayed and neutered dogs will at times also squabble with the upheaval.
Rotation of potty and crate time is a headache. The girls can be little sluts once in season as well, so it just makes it worse on the boys or other dogs.
A female in season usually tries to keep tidy but yes in my opinion there is an odor. Some people may not notice it, I do, so no couch time or on the rugs until out of season.
If you have plans on showing usually the female will blow a coat right after or around the time they go in season, so that can skew plans. Some of the best males to breed with may not be local so that is a factor and travel may kick a female out of season or one has to pay to have AI and vet services that go with it.
Exercise patterns should not change for males but you most likely will not get the focus for training if you have a female in season. Yes, keeping your male leashed outside if you have a dog in season or neighbors dog is in season is a really good idea.
I have no idea about coyotes. I do know they can interbreed on rare occasions. Don’t know what the survival rate is. Wolves and coyotes can interbreed as well.
I am sure someone more versed in the actually breeding practices can elaborate more on this, as far as vet. As I understand it, dogs should be checked before breeding. I would not use males or females unless clearance of reproductive diseases or you know who you are dealing with.
Often mill dogs come in with reproductive problems or are born to dams with reproductive issues due to various diseases, something to keep in mind if pet store dogs are used for breeding (hopefully not). Among them warts, canine pap virus, brucellosis. Street dogs in other countries or tributaries (India, South America, and Porto Rico) often carry certain viruses and can spread through nose to “hooch” contact or direct breeding. Something to be aware of if you travel with intact dogs.
It is nicer all around to have spayed and neutered animals and much less of a headache to manage multiple dogs.
Snf
My mom has a female Chihuahua that wasn't spayed and every time she goes into heat my sister's schipperke (snipped at 7 months) goes nuts over her. Teddy (schipperke) is constantly licking her back and crotch, keeping any dog (and even the cats) from getting near her and is just constantly in a high strung state. He is pretty pissy to begin with, but her hormones brings him over the edge. Eventually he constantly mounts her and all you hear for about a week is panting in the dark. Normally he wouldn't care about her, but when she is in heat and you separate them, he screams (sounds like a tasmanian devil) and tries his hardest to get to her. If he can't get to her, he starts to urinate on anything he can reach.
My guys, and my moms shih tzu don't act differently with her when she is in heat or not (though she is constantly humping the shih tzu's head and rubbing her butt in his face to get his attention) Goes to show that even when neutered at a fairly young age and was never used in a breeding program, a dog can still have that drive
Interesting Gen! As you've probably read, most everyone on the forum is pro-speuter for pet dogs. Out of curiosity, why do you feel neutering Riki was a bad idea? Did it affect his drive? Or concentration?
What does it literally mean that the males "go crazy" when the girls are in heat?
-- There is no way to put it in text, so for this question I made you a video - turn the sound on because I actually talk in this one (oh god)...
Are they short tempered?
-- Yes, in the same way a person may be short tempered when they are frustrated - but they still self-inhibit.
Are they competitive?
-- No, I have not seen anymore competitiveness in our males, but our females do show strange competitiveness (marking and things like that).
Do they destroy stuff in frustration, trying to get to a female?
-- I'm sure some males might, but ours have not - unless you count marking, they mark in the house when females are in heat which is REALLY SHITTY.
Are they physically manifesting "I can't mate and its killing me"?
-- Yes, but not in the way that they know what they want to do. I would say they seem physically attracted to the females and know they want to mount once they are close, but then they are at a distance trying to get to them I do not see it as if they know they want to get to hem to mate - they just know they want to get to them. To me, it is pure frustration.
Do neutered males show greater interest in a females in heat as well?
-- Yes, but w/o the frustration, just the attraction. They our fixed males rarely try to mount an in-heat female. Also, I should add, the difference between an intact male and a fixed male around an in-heat female is night & day. You can take a male that was extremely attracted to a female while intact, fix him, and see a HUGE reduction in attraction at the next heat (6 months from then - it takes at least 3 months for the "fixing" to normalize).
Do the girls want to keep away or go to the boys?
-- Then the girls are nearing ovulation they are just as attracted to the males, and kinda "slutty", after the ovulation they can be rather rude to the males if they are approached.
Play helps dogs perform their FAPs- if you own a breeding animal, is it critical not to suppress "sex play" as they grow up before they are actually bred? I am especially thinking of males here.
-- IMHO, I would NEVER suppress a dog's natural drive to "role play" FAPs during play, no matter what the FAP is - that's how they learn. Also, if you have a breeding animal, you want them to breed, so encouraging the practice will only help reinforce the act.
Can people smell female dogs in heat?
-- I have a really good sense of smell, and I do not smell anything - except, maybe, a subtle iron smell.
Is the bleeding manageable?
-- Yes, tho the first heat is the worst as the female is still learning how to be clean. Also, each breed is different in their cleanliness. The NK are super clean, you barely know Loa is in heat now. Same for the CO, they are surprisingly clean. JJ (CC) is not very clean, she a bit gross.
How frustrated are the girls?
-- They seem mildly frustrated. Its clear it is a draw on their system, they get sleep and moody.
How does having intact males affect day to day activities, such as exercise?
-- When females are not in heat there is no difference from a altered dog.
Do you still just go wherever you want to and exercise however you like, or must males always be leashed?
-- We do things the same with our intact and fixed males. I mean, we do not let any of our dog just run free. There is this public perception that an in-heat female will just show up and your male dog, while out on a walk, will all of the sudden breed with her. Truth is, there is a lot of behavior and displays you have to get through before a male and female tie. It's not like the male can just run up, mount, and breed - the conditions for this to happen would have to be PERFECT otherwise the female will be bitch toward the male... so that alone reduces the chances of it happening, let alone the odds of an in-heat female crossing your path while out on a walk or hike. I think the perceived risk is more with just leaving an intact male out side 24/7, an in-heat female *might* find him and lure him... but, that has not happened to us with Luytiy as he is behind several tall fences at night.
Point is, I think there is a certain level of paranoia with this topic, and its probably fueled by the rescues, and I think that's probably a good... whatever it takes to keep the irresponsible people from keeping intact dogs.
What is the risk of male dogs taking off after coyotes in season if you live in a place where coyotes also live?
-- We have not had that problem. The problem we have with Coyote is the male Coyote being drawn to our females. Luytiy has been boarded for a few days, the Coyote started showing up the day after we boarded Luytiy and they have been back every day and night several times a day. This is exactly the reason we have a male and a female LGD, so one can always be out with the females or the males.
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I kind've felt sorry for Mochi, she was like I just want to play and not be a big girl yet...
Very "BBC wildlife" of you, next time you should have a bush and speak from behind it to the camera :-P
@Rui - I really should do that next time. That would be funny, especially since we have no bushes or trees. LOL
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Snf
I do think JJ is at a disadvantage having her tail docked... but Kona still seems to get the point. LOL
Masha only comes into season once a year, so the only other heat she has had I think she was too young to flag. I'll let you know this time around.
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For the next Ranch Dogumentaries, I'd like to request "Dog Dinnertime, Ranch-Style" and "How to put 15 dogs to bed"
Can you do that one in a "Goodnight Moon" style poem?
"In the great tan room there was a telephone
a red sesame shikoku and a bowl of kibbles
and a quiet ovcharka grumbling 'Hush"..."
It will be good practice for you
"Goodnight Ahi!
Goodnight Blue.
Goodnight Ovcharkas grumbling 'hush!"
If your serious, I can make a vid to show feeding time... Sleepy time may be hard due to the darkness. But, I will try if you really want to see it. We should wait till all the dogs are home tho.
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If a female must be kept out of circulation once bred, due to defensiveness or just to keep her from any injury or over exertion in play, a breeder needs space and quiet areas for her, or can she just go around playing for a while? Does a female exhibit denning behavior during pregnancy, or just at delivery?
So intact males are fine as long as no female in season is around- which is why all these events and competitions such as shows and trials can go along smoothly despite the fact that all the dogs are intact. Just no females in season allowed, and all is normal for everyone else?
I know I wont get the Luytiy Bathtime video I can only imagine in my mind.
-- It really depends on the situation, in most cases that I have observed the females travels to the male.
Do you have a vet collect him in the case of AI, or does the owner of a stud do this themselves?
-- It depends on the kennel and the stud dog owner. Some do it themselves, some have a vet do it.
If a female must be kept out of circulation once bred, due to defensiveness or just to keep her from any injury or over exertion in play, a breeder needs space and quiet areas for her, or can she just go around playing for a while?
-- The female should be limited and kept as stress-free as possible. Most females will start to limit themselves early on.
Does a female exhibit denning behavior during pregnancy, or just at delivery?
-- Yes, they do. Many will create a den and if not properly managed will give birth in that den - this is dangerous. Also, they will collect items, like toys, and place them in one are preparing for birth. Its really kinda cute.
So intact males are fine as long as no female in season is around- which is why all these events and competitions such as shows and trials can go along smoothly despite the fact that all the dogs are intact. Just no females in season allowed, and all is normal for everyone else?
-- Yes, IMHO, this is the case. I see no more aggression/reactiveness/territorial behavior (other than marking) from our intact males when compared to our fixed. The one thing I do notice is intact males mark more than fixed males - that's it.
I think a lot of people believe there is more issue with intact males, and so they end up creating more issues via over-management or improper management (like via dominance techniques).
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Testicles = more testosterone = a more dramatic event if a fight were to ensue - but I have also noticed that the intact males follow a stricter "code" for interaction, and, therefore, "disagreements" are (more) naturally self-inhibited. Altered males are more "puppy-ish" and therefore can sometimes cause arguments due to improper play and lack of maturity. (JMO - based on observations of MY dogs).
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I know I wont get the Luytiy Bathtime video I can only imagine in my mind.
Ok, once we are past the heats, and things "normalize", I will make these videos... but don't expect us to sit on the floor and hand feed the pups or sing them to sleep at bedtime. LOL
Its all very routine and emotionless for us at this point (right or wrong). :oT (I guess that is the sad side to having so many dogs)
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Brad...you going to build a boat to put next to the house?
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I had a related-question to the topic. OOC, for those who have intact dogs, do you guys find yourselves getting "shunned" by other dog owners? Like, at the vet, do they pressure you to fix them? Do you get chased out of dog parks? Given dirty looks at events? LOL
I only ask as I noticed a LOT of the vets down here have "SPAY / NEUTER YOUR PETS!" on builboards outside the front of their buildings. I can imagine taking a pup there & being pressured into getting them fixed. Wondering if that happens?~
- is a drop in food interest; he eats less.
- higher level of excitement and energy; he'll run and prance around...often jumping up on top of the crates if he gets the opportunity.
- unfocused, he just has one thing on his mind..."how to get to the female in heat!"
He has jumped through a glass window before but the glass was already old, weak and cracked to begin with...but still, the little jerk did it when his beloved Kotomi was in heat.
Kotomi and Lynxiene have not come into heat together, they have been at separate times...thus far a couple of months apart but Kotomi has only had 2 heat cycles so is not yet "patternized". Lynx has been very regular when she comes into heat.
My girls are very clean and the bleeding is easy to manage. I also have "panties" available for the girls for when I have them loose in the house during their cycle. Lynx actually keeps hers on and I have yet to put one on Kotomi...she'd probably take it off.
I can usually smell a "fishy"/"irony" odor when they are in full-blown heat.
I have not noticed any major behavioral changes in my girls, other then they get a bit more "bitchy" with Shoushuu. Lynx becomes highly sensitive of her rear.
Shoushuu is actually more at ease (less frustrated/stressed) when he is crated next to girls when either of them is in heat rather then being isolated and away from them while still in the same household. If I were to keep him isolated within the same household, I'd have to keep him in my room with me. He's not typically vocal, generally quiet and is more an activist and problem solver then he is a vocalist and whiner =].
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When I worked for a breeder, she had a male in the livingroom and a female in heat in the bathroom. Both free-roaming and not in crates. I showed up to work one day to find both dogs loose in the livingroom and one of the doors with a HUGH hole in it and torn to pieces! So yeah, some males get pretty "crazy"!
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In public places, dogs should be on-leash whether they are intact or not. Just out of respect of others and possibly the safety of the dog as well (especially if in an unsecure area). I'm not limited as to where I can go with my intact dogs, unless they do not allow dogs. There are certain places such as doggie daycare that may not allow intact dogs but I'm not interested in daycare for my dogs...so is not a problem for me.
There are vets that do pressure to spay and neuter, some don't even ask...those that feel very strongly about it just assume and will schedule your dog! I go to a very breeder friendly vet and the staff there is wonderful. I've not had problems at dog parks in the past for bringing intact dogs, just females in heat are NOT allowed! All the canine-related events I go to, there are many, many, many other intact dogs as well...so my dogs just "blend" in, lol.
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Little Tidbit:
In working venues...the desire for the male is to remain focused on the task and ignore any female in heat. Of course, you never want to add unnecessary conflict/stress for the dogs, so any female in heat will go last in training and at trials.