Shots
I haven't found a discussion on shots and it's time for our annual shots. I don't know what to do.
I don't like shots, I am confident they do a lot more harm than good but they are a necessary evil. However, is it REALLY necessary to have shots every year? For example, the one against rabies is said to be good for three years (that's what the producers tell us) but we are forced to do it every year.
Studies have shown that many AI diseases are triggered by shots and many Akita breeders have totally/partially eliminated them and strive to repair the damage inflicted by the shots.
Akita are known for reacting poorly to drugs anyway, I always say less is more when it comes to them.
I do accept the fact that there are differences in various types of vaccines - the most important being the inoculation of live/killed virus; and from what I've discovered akita breeders tend to always recommend the killed virus vaccine. However, vets disagree and say this type is not strong enough for fully protecting the pup.
What do you think? What brand of vaccine do you use, how often and why?
I don't like shots, I am confident they do a lot more harm than good but they are a necessary evil. However, is it REALLY necessary to have shots every year? For example, the one against rabies is said to be good for three years (that's what the producers tell us) but we are forced to do it every year.
Studies have shown that many AI diseases are triggered by shots and many Akita breeders have totally/partially eliminated them and strive to repair the damage inflicted by the shots.
Akita are known for reacting poorly to drugs anyway, I always say less is more when it comes to them.
I do accept the fact that there are differences in various types of vaccines - the most important being the inoculation of live/killed virus; and from what I've discovered akita breeders tend to always recommend the killed virus vaccine. However, vets disagree and say this type is not strong enough for fully protecting the pup.
What do you think? What brand of vaccine do you use, how often and why?
Comments
I did some of the shots for little Shousei only weeks after he arrived from Japan. First I gave his immune system time to recover from the long trip. But Reno/Rico don't get any since I think over 5 years or so. They are very healthy for their age.
If you vaccinate a child, best is to not do anything before age 1.5 years. Only then, it makes sence for the immune system to adapt to this. So for pups you could do the same math; nothing before 2 months or so.
If your Akita's don't go out in the forest running into any risks, I would take the minimum or even less. If you compete with your dog, however, it is mandatory.
This is a common debate seen often on human babies, so I'm not surprised it's come up here regarding dogs.
So, here's my thought process: Every single form of medication has a certain "side effect" or risks associated with it. Let's look at humans for example. Birth Control can cause cancers, osteoporosis, blood clots, & weight gain, to name a few. Aspirin can cause heartburn, nausea, headache, drowsiness.
When I was a babe, & given *my* vaccines, it caused me to suffer severe ear infections until I was 4. p so much so, they almost put a tube in my ear ]
So... my point is...every form of medicine [ vaccines, preventative medication, aspirin, ibuprofin, steroids, etc. ] ALL have some form of side effect or "risk" associated with it.
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If I gave my dog a vaccine, & the dog died from it, I wouldn't feel "guilty." [ tho I'd still feel sad ] As all I was doing was a standard procedure done every day on thousands of dogs to try to protect my pup.
BUT. If I didn't give my dog a vaccine, and the dog caught Rabies or Parvo or whatever, & died from it...when I could've prevented it with a simple shot, I'd feel horribly guilty.
I guess you have to pick the "lesser of evils." Something like Rabies is incurable unless caught & treated within x amount of hours...I'd rather take my risks with a vaccine than with my pup catching rabies. [ which could then be passed on to humans, other animals, etc. ]
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On another note, I had a breeder once tell me that a vet can do some form of test to see how much of the vaccine is left in the dog's system, & then adjust their booster accordingly. Don't know if this is good advice, or bad, just what I was told.
I'm looking forward to hear what everyone has to say on the subject.
Today we live so sterile and so well protected that our immune system never gets to develop well. Studies show clearly that people (or dogs for the sake of it) who live a very protected (and sterile) life are very much higher in risk to develop all kinds of diseases later in life.
Taking statins because the doctor told you so, but without really studying the topic is simply not good. Isn't it a weird world where certain companies try to convince us that life is no longer possible on this planet without the use of all their chemical additions?
You mentioned one great sample: aspirin. So many people take just one a day to keep the blood healthy. It is one of the biggest mistakes in medical history. Hundreds of thousands of people end up in the hospital by doing this, many die. Look at Bill Clinton; he had a history of heart problems so he went on a much better diet but the doctors prescribed blood-thinning medications after his first heart attacks and bypasses. Now they try to convince us that he did everything okay, there was nothing to do to avoid this. Genetics or such BS. But not true at all. Blood thinning medication (Coumarins, Warfarins) cause arterial calcification as a side effect! So it's the medicine what caused this trouble not his genes, not even his life style. Life style was only responsible for the first problem.
So to get back to the topic; I would feel guilty if my dog would die after vaccination. Even more if I would find out that I just followed what the vet told me (stuff he learned from the people who make money of this stuff) without checking if this vaccination is a real need for this pup or adult dog. There are plenty of websites available to educate us about this. Never read only one. Than make a decision based on this info. If anyone is willing to spend years on research to find the right dog, I guess this should be part of it.
The testing you talk about is well available to see if the dog has build up enough antibodies against the vaccination. If I would like to take my dogs into Norway they have this program in vaccination and testing for rabies. I think it's a smart way to do to avoid additional unnecessary vaccinations, however costly.
I'm a bit pressed with time, but I wanted to throw in a great site http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1651&aid=846
A distinction should be made between first inoculation and subsequent ones. Nobivac is the most common brand here and this is the normal schedule:
* 4-6 weeks - Nobivac® Parvo-C or Nobivac® Puppy DP
* 8-9 weeks- Nobivac® DHP and Nobivac® L
* 12 weeks- Nobivac® DHP and Nobivac® L, Nobivac® Rabies or Nobivac® RL
Annual shot is usually DHPPi, L and R (before lepto and rabies were together in RL, now they separated them).
This is a standard schedule and the age is chosen to be the average age puppies usually get the lowest level of antibodies that no longer prevents him from getting ill. Because each pup is special, you can't tell the level of antibodies without a titer and this is expensive and takes a long time (I did the titer for rabies, it was around 80 euros and the results came in 21 days - way too much time).
If the level of antibodies is too high the shot has no positive effect to my mind, just the negative ones. If the level of antibodies is too low and we don't do the shot the pup could get sick.
If these shots do their jobs why do we need boosters every year? Especially since on the prospect it says that it's good for 3 years?
Just a FYI, I don't trust vets, so I won't give the pup smth just because the vet said so. I know I'm paranoid and it's not normal, but that's the way I am LOL
I go with the basics (Rabies, Distemper, Parvo) for my guys, not only cause it's the law but also because there are plenty of wild animals in my suburban neighborhood that carry these diseases. Quite a few raccoons were caught in my neighborhood that tested positive for distemper (which I found that they carry distemper that can only affect dogs, cat distemper is somewhat different), as well as a few bats that tested positive for rabies.
As far as pumping a dog full of vaccines, my family knew someone who had done that once and suffered greatly for it. The vets had told her that her dog needed a whole list of vaccines, and being naive, she listened to the vets since who would know better about health than a vet. After getting all these shots, the dog had a really bad reaction, it's organs start to shut down and were being attacked by the bodies immune system. After going through many surgeries to remove the dead/dieing tissue and taking all sorts of drugs, They finally were able to somewhat stabilize the dogs health. Poor thing looked skinnier than a starved Boxer and had to be on special medication for the rest of it's life.
With this experience, an owner has to determine what they feel is best for their dog. Ofcourse, the cocktail is so necessary for pups. It is the difference between life and death with so many puppies in my area getting distemper and parvo. If I had known that he would've had this reaction, then I would have pre-treated him first. (He did fine with his first set at the breeder's vet.) They did the rabies on the same day, so it might be that one that he had the reaction to. I can't be sure, but he will be pre-treated for this next time around, and I will have plenty of rice, cottage cheese, and chicken on hand to try and settle his stomache after.
I'd agree with the comments about spreading out the vaccines rather than doing them all at once, our breeder agreed that this was a good idea. (No reason to risk possible interactions).
In our contract the breeder prohibited the FLEV and FLIP vaccinations. They are not included in the FVRCP combo.
http://www.colovma.com/associations/2956/files/Small Animal Vaccine Guidelines final.pdf
In summary, rabies at 6 months, then intial booster at 1 yr, and thenafter every three years if localities allow. The Rabies Challenge Fund is set up to try to extend the legal duration of when a rabies shot is valid.
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
For parvo, parainfluenza, distemper, and adenovirus 2, the dogs get regular initial puppy series of shots, then booster at 1 yr, and thenafter every three years. I stop when the dogs are seniors.
For coronavirus, I would do puppy but not adult.
For leptospira, it depends on the region and area that I would live in.
I think Osy has a great point in saying that all forms of medication have their side effects. However, I do also think that we over-vaccinate. Since I don't currently have my own dog, I am not aware of which vaccines are considered "core" in my area - but I will for certain do my research before the time comes. The best thing for any pet owner is to be well-informed. I also think that instead of boosters at scheduled times, titer tests should be performed to see if the vaccination is even necessary.
I think this forum is to learn from each other in each and every way. I think I am not misinformed, but maybe I haven't expressed myself correctly.
If we use a certain vaccine, the receiver will develop antibodies against the injected substance. This will cause a type of stress for the immune system. It will be activated. At rest a human immune system will take up about 7% of your ATP (energy). Once activated it will use up more, up to very high levels like 70% in extreme cases. That makes us want to stay in bed to rest if we get the flue. Now, in case we get a flue shot, we will activate our immune system against those specific virusses present in that specific flue shot. Mostly that are about 3 or 4 different ones. However, at the same time it surpresses the same system fighting off all other virusses and bacteria. That's what's causing the side effects, like dogs who become very sick. Next to the virusses injected we unfortunately also receive a firm doses of methylmercury, which is in there as a preservative. This is damaging every organ, most specific the brain tissue. It will take many years to get it out of the system. Adding selenium would be useful, however this isn't done.
So vaccination will, after some time, activate specific T-memory cells, it will surpress others. So in the period after the shot the dog is very high in risk for running into trouble by any type of bacterial infection, which normally would not be any risk at all. This because the immune system is busy doing other like recruting T-cells to fight the newly injected virus.
If my dogs get into a fight and I have to stop it I have to go in between with my hands. So there is a high risk I will get bitten by one of them, accidently. But I do not take any shots against it, like tetanus. Whatever my dogs have, I will be adapted to it, since I live with them for such a long time. With an other unknown dog, it would be a different situation.
At the risk of side-tracking the discussion, I do have to take issue with a few statements you made.
While vaccines do introduce some form of antigen into one's system (since the whole goal is to train the immune system to respond to that antigen), and that does activate the immune system, it's not really true to say that the immune system is impaired temporarily while responding to the vaccine. For any modern vaccine, it'll be a inactive/killed/partial pathogen, which will get eaten by dendritic cells that will eventually display fragments of the antigen to T-cells. Generally (assuming that one isn't immuno-compromised), this whole process doesn't impair one's ability to function or respond to further immune events (which is why kids can get a measles/mumps/rebella shot, and be off playing on the playground without contracting something in the process). In short, the dendritic cells displaying the antigen don't recruit all the body's T-cells in any given inoculation. If that did happen, every vaccine would induce a pretty massive fever and other assorted nasty issues.
As for mercury, thimerosal (a mercury based excipient, to which I think you're referring) has been pretty much phased out across the EU and US. I'm not aware of any current vaccines that contain it.
And for tetanus, god forbid, if you do get bitten, I'd still recommend the shot (if you're not current). The reason being that recovery from naturally acquired tetanus does not usually result in immunity to tetanus (basically, you'd need more than a lethal dose of the actual toxin to train your immune system, which is why the vaccine for tetanus is an inactive toxoid). So basically, day-to-day exposure can't confer immunity to tetanus.
Also, a dog could easily deliver tetanus to someone without carrying it themselves (ie, dogs dig around in dirt containing spores, get spores on their teeth, and then accidentally deliver spores to person via bite. If the dog never got a puncture wound to deliver the spores, it wouldn't contract tetanus itself).
All that said, I agree with Kyla -- there is a tendency to over-vaccinate dogs for diseases they're unlikely to encounter.
(disclaimer: while my group does study drug delivery, I'm getting my phd in chemical engineering, not molec bio, so I'm probably not the ideal person to do immunology)
Some current vaccines do still contain thimerosal (GSK's H1N1 vaccine), but it has been eliminated in childhood vaccines for many years. Thimerosal does contain mercury, but it is not converted to the toxic methyl mercury (found in many fish, like tuna) but ethyl mercury, which does not accumulate in the body - it is excreted in 4-5 days in the case of humans.
In the case of being adapted to organisms you are exposed to - while this is true to an extent, there are many pathogens that only cause disease under specific conditions. For example, you probably have Staphlococcus aureus living on your skin right now. However, you won't get a staph infection from it unless you have a cut on your skin that allows the bacteria to enter. Nico, I hope you are vaccinated to tetanus - you can't get immunity from simply being around the spores, and the disease occurs almost exclusively in unvaccinated individuals.
I am a undergraduate majoring in Microbiology and Immunology, and while I don't pretend to know everything (I'm still learning!) I do know a little about the subject.
I wanted to add some things yesterday but didn't have time and you've covered what I was going to say very well while adding a lot of useful info I didn't know.
In the area where I live Rabies must be done every year and it's up to you if you want the other vaccines or not. However, it's difficult to attend training courses, leave the dog in a boarding kennel or attend shows without having all of them. Some producers recommend yearly shots (Nobivac) while others say the shots are good for three years (Fort Dodge). However, most vaccines are made using live viruses and I'm determined to find one using killed ones. Can you tell me what brands you use?
I am really intrigued why we should need to give boosters at regular periods of time. If the body develops an immune response memory then what is the medical reason why it needs to give a booster? Shouldn't it last for the pet's lifetime?
later edit:
TheWalrus, if there was any type of swelling the vet should have administered andrenaline. It's not something to wait and see if he recovers, a friend's pup died after vaccination because of this kind of anaphylactic shock. You should definitely change the brand and keep an eye on him after giving the vaccine. A vet friend told me they should keep the dog for 1/2 an hour after administering the vaccine but they never do it because there is no time (there are other dogs waiting outside). However, it's good to keep in mind that producers say negative reactions should appear within 4 hours after inoculation. Swelling is not the only side effect. A friend's AA collapsed on the street after receiving his yearly shot, he recovered in half an hour by himself but it was terrifying.
Nico, you did a great job with the little one. In general, after the pup goes to the stress of adjusting to his new family no shots should be administered for at least two weeks otherwise he may develop much worse side effects.
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-335421?ref=feeds/latest%3E
Maybe they'll do smth similar for pet vaccinations too?
I just took Sukoshi in for her annual checkup. (No problems! But she could stand to loose a little weight...) I live in an area with lots of wildlife (raccoons, possums, skunks, coyotes, deer, turkeys,etc.). Because of this potential exposure to wildlife, my vet recommended vaccinating Sukoshi for leptospirosis, which we did. Thought I would share this recommendation with folks on the forum.
Additional comment: Just because one lives in an "urban" environment, does not necessarily mean that you can't be exposed to diseases where wildlife are vectors. Raccoon, possums, skunks, and coyotes have also established their niches in many "urban" areas. (Think about the stories of coyotes showing up on golf courses or skunks making homes under houses.)
I don't have a cat right now, but I have had several in the past. I had one cat die due to FLV ("kitty AIDS") prior to development of the FLV vaccine. Not a pleasant experience. Any cat I own, even if just an inside cat, would get this vaccine, because cats sometimes escape the house and could be exposed to FLV. (For example, through local feral cat colonies.)
I have spent a large portion of my professional life as a medical/public health emergency planner. One of the things one learns in this profession is how fragile the medical/public health balance can be. So, assess the risks to you and your animals, discuss them with your doctor and your vet -- and vaccinate accordingly.
Note: There is a movement called "One Health" that ties together human, animal, and environmental health issues. For more information, see:
http://www.onehealthinitiative.com/
(OK, now off of my soapbox)