FCI vs. AKC
what are the main differences between the FCI and the AKC? I know that FCI follows the country of origin and recognizes more breeds but what are the other differences in the way the organizations ares set up? Are the dogs shown differently? Are there safeguards against bad breeding in the FCI? Im very interested to know as it seems that the AKC is not really liked..
By the way i do know the the AKC is made of parent clubs but aren't the standards of the akc breeds the same as the fci breed or am i wrong?
The only breed I'm familiar with is the akita and thats a whole mess right there...
By the way i do know the the AKC is made of parent clubs but aren't the standards of the akc breeds the same as the fci breed or am i wrong?
The only breed I'm familiar with is the akita and thats a whole mess right there...
Comments
http://www.fci.be/
FCI or Federation Cynologique Internationale (roughly translated as International Dog Federation - I don't think there is an exact word to translate cynologique - it's the science that deals with the study of dogs) is first and foremost a federation of national canine organisations (one per country) - that means that there is a number of members that deal with issuing pedigree, organizing shows, training judges, etc. All the pedigrees and show results are mutually recognized by all members. There is quite a large degree of freedom but some things are set in stone - the standards (breeds are the 'property' of the specific country where it was created, and the standard is set by this country and not modified outside it), you need to register your kennel with the FCI (not with your national canine organisation, although the paperwork goes through them) and generally abide by their rules and regulations.
There are specific shows that are the most interesting for a breeder - World Dog Show (WDS) and Section Shows - the most important one (over here) being the European Dog Show (EDS). The other sections are: Americas and the Carib. Section and Asia and the Pacific. There are also some specific shows for certain breeds like the Retriever Cup. Sighthounds, British Pointing Dogs, etc, or Agility, Obedience, Utility, etc. I don't know much about all this, all the info that I'm writing here deals with conformation shows.
FCI recognizes 339 breeds and they are classified in 10 groups:
Group 1 Sheepdogs and Cattle Dogs (with the exception of the Swiss Cattle Dogs)
Group 2 Pinscher and Schnauzer - Molossoid Breeds - Swiss Mountain and Cattle Dogs
Group 3 Terriers
Group 4 Dachshunds (teckel)
Group 5 Spitz and Primitive types
Group 6 Scenthounds and related breeds
Group 7 Pointing Dogs
Group 8 Retrievers - Flushing Dogs - Water Dogs
Group 9 Companion and Toy Dogs
Group 10 Sighthounds
It's by no means a perfect distribution of breeds - the Dachshunds have a group just for themselves, there is quite a big difference between the Yorkshire, Airedale and American Staffordshire Terrier - yet they are all in the same group; and the Japanese breeds are scattered all over the place - Japanese Chin in 9, Tosa in 2, but most are in 5: both Akita (Akita, standard no 255 and American Akita, standard no 344), Hokkaido 261, Kai 317, Kishu 318, Japanese Spitz 262, Shiba 257, Shikoku 319. The two Akita were split in 2005 and they have different standard that don't tell you much about the differences. You need to be very familiar with the two to know what works for one and not another and to spot tweenies (which turn out from time to time, but very rarely).
Each national canine organisation organizes its own national shows (conformation and working, hunting, etc) and it has its own national Breed Clubs that has its own shows. In addition to these, there are international dog shows organized by the local organizations. Usually they are differentiated by their name (DUH!!) National Shows, Club Shows, International Shows and there are some special ones like Derby Shows (the dogs that were born one year before this Derby show are the only ones allowed to enter; so, if the Derby takes place in 2010 the only dogs that are allowed to enter are the ones born in 2009) or Champion of Champions Shows (where all dogs that received the title of Champion are allowed to compete), Top Ten - best 10 dogs in a specific year - if they gather a specific number of points to qualify for this show (not breed related). Titles are awarded according to class and sex, then Best of Class is chosen, Best of Sex within a breed, Best of Breed, Best of Group (within the groups I mentioned earlier) and Best in Show. There are also special awards like Best Baby in Show, Best Puppy in Show, Best Junior in Show, Best Veteran in Show, Best Pair, Best Breeding Group, Junior Handler... and I think those are it.
These are the classes:
Baby (3 to 6 months old)
Puppy (6 to 9)
Junior (9 to 18)
Intermediary (15 to 24)
Open (15+ )
Working (15+) - not all breeds have working class; akita doesn't for example
Champion (15+)
Veterans (8 years + )
Each country has its own rules for awarding the Champion title, usually there is a combination of titles received in National, International and Club shows. Once a dog is a Champion of a specific country it can become Champion of another country if he receives a specific title in that country. There are different rules and agreements between countries.
The marks given are Very promising, Promising and Not promising for Baby and Puppy; the first 4 Very promising are ranked. For the rest of the clases you can get Excellent (top 4 ranked), Very good, Good, Satisfactory and Cannot be judged (won't show teeth for example).
I can't think of anything else, but I'm sure that there are many things that I left out, so ask away!
I'm really excited about this year's EDS, in addition to the show there will a Club show for Group 5 Japanese Breeds and Akita are scheduled to be judged by Nyberg Britt (you know, with the Britt's akita page). A US judge will be in charge of the AA - Kaluzniacki and a Japanese judge Awashima Izumi for the shikas.
This years's WDS will take place in Denmark, a bit too far for me, so I haven't investigated it too much.
I checked the Americas section, apparently this year the show will take place in Lima and next year in Guatemala, if anyone's interested.
In America, if a breeder produced pups and didn't have the pedigree certified by the FCI, but instead registered with the UKC or AKC, the pups produced could probably not be registered with another country's kennel club unless they accepted the UKC or AKC registration.
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Brad, there are two types of pedigree, but both are acquired through the national canine organisation (this seems to be similar to what you call kennel club). One is designed for dogs that are to be sold within the country they were born in, the other (called Export pedigree) is for dogs that are sold outside it. You need the export pedigree to register your dog with another national canine organisation that the one that issued the pedigree.
That's great news about another Akiho.
Akiho -Japan
Akiho -Los Angeles
Akiho -Taiwan
Akiho - Mongolia (not joking)
Akiho -EU
Following a split among the organisers of Akita Cup (which I think you are aware of so I won't talk about it now), a group contacted Akiho Hozonkai and asked for support in creating a European organisation on the lines of the Japanese one + organizing shows under its aegis (this year's show is now known as Akita Trophy) in order to focus breeding on the modern type of Akita. The organization is called Hozonkai Europa and it was very successful so far, it already has many members and many have expressed their desire to take part in their shows. Akita Trophy will be a similar type of expo like Akita Cup but strictly Hozonkai Akiho will be shown. Yes, it's based in Italy.
Regarding FCI's position you may know more about it than I. I have not heard of such thing and it doesn't seem to follow FCI pattern. Japanese standards should be more important than FCI standards and not the other way around. The imposition of the FCI standard goes against their principles of accepting 'paternity' of a specific breed and abiding by the standard formulated in its home country. Once more, it's just my personal opinion, so you may very well be right.
I don't think there should be a problem with pedigree recognition. Akiho pedigrees are recognized by FCI and there were some dogs born in Europe that get akiho registration but I don't know much about this. With FCI you don't need to worry too much about affiliation, it's not like in the US, there isn't THAT big of a difference between JA born in Japan and JA born in Europe. There are many imports being done and many good pups born here also, but fresh blood is always needed.
http://www.hozonkai.eu/
later edit:
Oh, I forgot to mention, although you probably knew that already: Japan Kennel Club is member of FCI. That's why Japanese pedigrees are recognized and given registration numbers within FCI countries on the basis of Export Pedigrees.
Here is my logic: As mentioned in another post, we have the 6 main Japanese Breeds with only Shiba being AKC. If your JA has JKC papers you can register AKC and show against the AA. If FCI recognizes Nippo and Akiho as breeding clubs from the country of origin -couldn't the state side branches invite FCI into the states?
I'm not sure about the national all-breed kennel club vs. a regional breed club as being an FCI representative. My gut feeling is no as most people with FCI registered imports usually register their domestic offsprings with the FCPR (Puerto Rico) or have the breeder from where they get the imports register the offsprings in their foreign country.
Once in a while, a hopeful rumor comes out that the United Kennel Club, a national all-breed kennel club, will pair up with the FCI and become the U.S. representative to the FCI, but nothing has come out of it. The UKC has the better chance than the AKC as the UKC has control over their standards instead of the breed clubs. It would be easier to switch to FCI standards then.
You said
'It was my understanding while some Akita in Europe have Akiho numbers a lot do not but have JKC through or something through their own country. So that people that have Japanese Akita but do not have them Akiho registered will have to back track and bring those Akita w/o Akiho numbers up todate. '
To my knowledge there are very few Akita in Europe coming from Japan to have a number other than Akiho (true, I haven't studied ALL the peds of JA coming from Japan, but I am pretty much up-to-date). Those that are not born in Japan, naturally, don't get Akiho or JKC numbers. They get numbers from their national organisation and it's a different one for each country LOF for France, MET for Hungary, etc. As long as Akiho is part of JKC and JKC is part of FCI, it doesn't really matter if a dog has akiho or whatever other number - for FCI shows I mean.
IF a specific European breeder should want to breed closer to the Akiho standard, he is free to import only Akiho registered JA and conduct his breeding program in accordance to this organisation.
You said
'Does anyone know if FCI and AKC have a good relationship? This may have been asked above -but would FCI require a home nation's kennel club to invite them in or could a regional club accomplish that.'
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Are you refering to the possibility of AKC becoming part of FCI? There are different type of associations with FCI - full member, associate organisations and partners. I do not foresee the possibility of AKC ever becoming part of the FCI.
If the two questions are not related, as I imagine they are not, then I must stress one more thing: the national organisations are members of FCI and the regional clubs are part of the national organisations. So every decision is taken at the national level. HOWEVER this is the situation in Europe.
You said
'Here is my logic: As mentioned in another post, we have the 6 main Japanese Breeds with only Shiba being AKC. If your JA has JKC papers you can register AKC and show against the AA. If FCI recognizes Nippo and Akiho as breeding clubs from the country of origin -couldn't the state side branches invite FCI into the states? '
That seems to me like a jolly good idea and I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't work. TO MY MIND, if you have akiho or JKC papers for your dogs nobody stops you from attending FCI shows. If you wish to organise a FCI show in the states I think that all you need to do is ask for permission to organise it. There are some rules connected to this, though. However, this is only in theory. You should thoroughly analyze FCI regulations to make sure.
Ayk, you said:
'My understanding is that AKC would not automatically accept FCI registered dogs in the breeds that are already AKC recognized. They will do it for dogs that are listed under their Foundation Stock Service.'
I know of Huskies exported to the US and getting AKC recognition (if a dog is AKC pointed I gather that means he got AKC recognition). I know of many dogs imported from the US that got FCI recognition.
"Those that are not born in Japan, naturally, don't get Akiho or JKC numbers. They get numbers from their national organisation and it's a different one for each country LOF for France, MET for Hungary, etc. As long as Akiho is part of JKC and JKC is part of FCI, it doesn't really matter if a dog has akiho or whatever other number - for FCI shows I mean."
You are correct as long as the dog has a number from a national organization then it is ok for FCI. Akiho numbers can be given to JA's born outside of Japan. Kaeda (my brindle is) and most of the LA-Branch Akita are born in the US. The catch is both parents need to be have Akiho numbers first. So with your new Europa branch, members will be able to backtrack and get those numbers.
"If you wish to organise a FCI show in the states I think that all you need to do is ask for permission to organise it. There are some rules connected to this, though. However, this is only in theory. You should thoroughly analyze FCI regulations to make sure. "
It is not that I want to do FCI shows -If we ever needed a national governing body (and not AKC) -- FCI seems like the perfect way to bring the nihonken breeds together under one umbrella. Does that make sense?
Yup, I get what you mean. I'll have to investigate more, especially what this new Hozonkai can bring to European JA. I don't know what are its powers yet or its plans for the future.
Akitarise, I will help you with evth I know, although I am sure that there are others on this forum that know more than I. But I'll do my best LOL