MultiDogs: Gender Factors
Particularly in akitas, I have often read that you (who?) should avoid keeping two males or two females, or in many breeds that it is just "best" that if you have a male already to get a female as your 2nd dog and vice -versa.
What's the deal with akitas? Why would akitas in particular not tolerate the same sex in a group? There are examples of same sex akita families
like that bonded pair of males in the rescue thread. Is this just a warning to beginners? or is it just more true than not for all? What is the correct perspective to place on gender in dog selection in dog groups, and in nihon ken in particular? How do breeders do it, then? Do they keep all dogs separated in runs and mix them strategically?
How soon do you know if two dogs are having a gender war? Immediately? When the new pup's puppy license expires? or not till the younger one becomes an adult themselves? I have read some stuff by Ian Dunbar about the harassment intact adolescent males endure from adults, not sure if something similar happens in females?
There are so many factors in group dynamics: Age difference, sex, size, and individual personality.
Assuming dogs are reasonably balanced individuals living in an appropriately guided home with an experienced owner, for *best odds of compatibility* is it better to err on the side of gender and get opposite sex, or if a same sex pup appears to have a more complementary personality than any opposite sex pups to chose that one?
What's the deal with akitas? Why would akitas in particular not tolerate the same sex in a group? There are examples of same sex akita families
like that bonded pair of males in the rescue thread. Is this just a warning to beginners? or is it just more true than not for all? What is the correct perspective to place on gender in dog selection in dog groups, and in nihon ken in particular? How do breeders do it, then? Do they keep all dogs separated in runs and mix them strategically? How soon do you know if two dogs are having a gender war? Immediately? When the new pup's puppy license expires? or not till the younger one becomes an adult themselves? I have read some stuff by Ian Dunbar about the harassment intact adolescent males endure from adults, not sure if something similar happens in females?
There are so many factors in group dynamics: Age difference, sex, size, and individual personality.
Assuming dogs are reasonably balanced individuals living in an appropriately guided home with an experienced owner, for *best odds of compatibility* is it better to err on the side of gender and get opposite sex, or if a same sex pup appears to have a more complementary personality than any opposite sex pups to chose that one?
Comments
I have Shibas, rathe than Akitas, but I got a female because of the advice to get male/female rather than two of the same sex. They got along fine for two plus years, then she attacked the male and nearly killed him. Now they are constantly separated. Obviously, my experience is individual rather than typical (or at least I imagine it is), but it has made me question the actual reliability of the "don't get the same sex" advice. (though of course, this could have nothing to do with anything except my "crazy" girl). I have also heard--and I've seen this borne out to a degree--that bitches can be more aggressive/dominate in these breeds. Certainly my Bel is not the only female Shiba I've seen who hits sexual maturity and suddenly decides she wants to be in charge.
One day I hope to add a JA to my pack, but I need to find the right dog (and do work with my shibas) before this can happen, but the question that has come to me a lot is male or female, given that I have one of each.
So I also would love to hear what people's thoughts/experiences regarding sex differences in behavior/compatibility.
I've heard it's better to keep 2 males together, than 2 females, but male / female pairs work well too.
I think this is one of those questions where you'll get a million answers
I know I've seen enough same-sex "pairs" that have worked great! [ look at Beth's Tetsu & Tikaani, Casey's Bella & Nola, etc. ] but, personally, based on what I've been told, I think it's more about the dog's individual personality then gender.
As when you move on to 3 dogs, the "opposite gender" rule can't apply anymore, you're bound to have 2 of the same gender. [ unless one has both girl & boy bits!! LOL ] ~
Does that mean that she could never live with another female? Absolutely not. In fact, I hope she does someday. BUT, and this is a BIG BUT, it means I will need to be more vigilant if/when another female comes to live with us. For whatever reason, she sees other dogs of the same sex as more competition for her resources than other dogs of the opposite sex. So, when Osy points out that it's very much dependent on the temperament of your dog, I think she was right. If your dog has a tendency to guard resources, then adding an additional dog will be more of a challenge than if your dog doesn't guard resources. Further, if they have that tendency to guard resources, you are likely to see it play out with dogs of the same sex to a larger degree. YMMV on that one though. Perhaps others can verify this too.
In a setting where males and females are kept intact, the typical issue that one should be concerned about is competition over a mate, when females go into heat males tend to guard "their" females, they see them as high-value resources and guard them from others as such. Each male is different tho, not all males value sex as much as the next... err, I should say not all males guard resources as strongly as the next. YMMV
There is also marking competition, but we see Ahi, Masha, and Loa marking over the boy's markings just as much as we see boy marking over each others. Also note that these dogs that participate in "scenting competition" are a mixed bag of altered and unaltered animals.
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"What's the deal with akitas? Why would akitas in particular not tolerate the same sex in a group? "
>> There is no "deal" with Akita, its just typical breed hype.
"Is it better to err on the side of gender and get opposite sex?"
>> I think, for the safety of their pups, a breeder has to assume a potential owner is a newb and/or a liar, and therefore will go the safest route.
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So the assumption there is what? That because the female was getting old the younger female had to "off her" in order to take her place in the "pack"? Is that what is being suggested?
If so, how come it always goes there? There could be a million other reasons for the younger female dog attacking an older female dog... There are just as many stories of dogs that grow old and don't show this type of behavior, so what is going on there? If the pack-order thing is the rule, then what is the deal with all the dog families that don't see this type of behavior?
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IMO this is all BS. Know your dog before introducing a new dog to the scene. Do proper intro's, allow dogs to feel comfortable with eachother/gain your trust before you leave them alone together, and if dogs do show aggression towards eachother separate. Not all dogs are going to like eachother. Not all dogs are meant to live together.
Koda could care less if he plays with a male or female. He loves them both, and strangely enough loves intact males more! I won't get into it, but let's just say that he LOVES in tact males.
His best friend, Bella the Shiba, will equally beat up on either a male or a female...lol...shiba style. She likes to punk other dogs.
I could probably introduce any dog to my home and Koda would love them. Maybe that's just the Kai way, or male way. Who knows. I know Marian said on here that females tend to get bitchy with eachother, but plenty of people have two females together.
Again, it's up to your dog and only your dog to make the rules on who they like or don't like.
So do you think sex doesn't matter once they are altered? (This is a real question, not a challenge btw
Sorry, lots of questions....
And btw, I find this forum to make for some fascinating reading and really interesting discussions...thanks!
Funny thing is that Koda doesn't hump. So, we walk away like Koda is the good guy while I know the other dogs must smell how turned on he is and it sets them all off. Totally off the subject...sorry. But sometimes I wonder how much neutering does do to personality. At least with Koda I do.
A bitch in heat drove him nuts a couple weeks ago. It's our neighbors dog, and he was whining and crying in the back trying to get to her and growling at people when they came in the door. Strange, strange dog.
An easier-going, playful female pup with a sense of humor is what I need. Is this harder to find in a kai- like Marian indicated? Is the bitchy female nihon ken just hype? I want to believe it is just hype...cause I'd most love the idea of a li'l kai girl up here.
I found an akita breeder I like a lot on the surface- all kinds of health certs, temperament testing and two of them compete in agility and do carting as well (and a few are brindles-mmm!) The breeder and I discussed the under-appreciated working qualities of the breed (AA)- but the breeder even told me if my male is reactive to get a female, but is it to be assumed that the akita will always rival another dog of its sex? I just find this hard to believe, which is why I ask and I will take anyone with akita experience's word. So, the breeder is just trying to see if I need to be weeded out? I want to believe it IS bs, so I throw it out there to you all to help me see better. and I thank everyone for the responses so far.
I am interested in Dave & Brad talking about resource guarding is what is more pronounced with same sex dogs- not the whole relationship. Manage your resources IF you have resource-anxious dogs- is that the key, and sex of the dog is only a problem within that behavior cluster? I can believe that bc Sage and my sis' Cody- two neutered males btw- can take walks together peaceably but not hang around in a room full of toys and people who give affection. Not a problem with the girls, even though one is an affection hog.
The akita breeder was very smart- she asked what I would do if the dogs did not get along- rehome or separate? and honestly, I do not want a third dog so badly that I am willing to gate, crate and separate on more than an occaisional as needed basis. Nor do I really have room to be fair to all that way. It makes you think about the odds of having to separate, and making those odds as small as possible. If gender is truly such a factor in akitas, then I am not willing to take the chance of having to be in fight prevention mode with three large dogs for the rest of their lives. I feel I am a fairly aware and savvy dog person, BUT even keeping Sage and my sis' beagle-boy separated for a weekend stresses me out. Am I a bad prospective owner if I admit that? possibly. Is she freaking me out because I told her I have a reactive dog and she wants to turn me off?
I also love molossors. Greater Swissies, Mastiffs, Saint Bernards. I dont know if I can FEED three dogs as well as I like to if they are any bigger than the ones I already have though. It's intimidating. Put a lot of thought into pup selection, or go with your gut? More likely than not, I will spend lots of time poring, considering, weighing, pondering, talking with people until I am exhausted, then give up completely for a while, then hop down to the shelter and see what puppy's got the magic when we're ready, maybe this fall or next spring. "Wanted: female Puppy with sense of humor. Must love deep snow, dog play, hiking along creeks and mountainy terrian. Training will be provided. Brindle a plus but not required."
If you feel that Sage gets along better with girls then you have answered your question for Sage. If you feel that Rei would get along with anyone, then you have answered your question for Rei. As far as a young puppy goes, you will have to wait and see as they grow up how they tolerate Rei and Sage.
Don't think about the puppy getting along with Rei & Sage, think about Sage & Rei getting along with the puppy. If Rei is cool with everyone, & Sage is better with females, go with a female. You know your dogs, you know who they like to play with, get along best, what breeds, etc.
A breeder is just that, a breeder, & while they may know their own breed, they do not know your dogs the way you do.
"So do you think sex doesn't matter once they are altered?"
>> I think altered dogs know the differences in sex, but they do not have the same level of sexual interest. I think altered males are still interested in unaltered (& altered) females, but they do not have the sexual drive an unaltered male has - meaning, they may sniff, drool, even try to mount, but they are simply cycling through FAPs while intact males do the same thing, but are also driven by hormones. The altered dogs may show the same FAPs but at a much lower intensity than the unaltered dogs. The unaltered dog's chemical reaction to the LH surge in a female is what makes them value the female - without the chemical reaction the value of the female is gone and so the issues of resource guarding is greatly reduced.
Out side of a female being in heat, and male being attracted to her, I do not see any reason why the sex of the animal plays a role in their behavior with other dogs. This is from my personal experience and JMHO. I just don't see it. Sure, there are general things I can say about female dogs and male dogs, but they are just generalities and not rules - i.e. not all female dogs are "bitchy".
When Masha goes into heat, and then ovulates, she becomes a RAGING BITCH, she beats up on Luytiy (unaltered male) and Leila (unaltered female), she picks on Kaia (altered female) and Lani & Fuji (altered females) as well as Huna (altered male). The other day Ahi challenged her over a toy and Masha got right in Ahi's face - no other dogs do that to Ahi - Ahi is an altered female. Loa and Masha will linger around the food cart and growl at each other during this time in Masha's heat (post ovulation) too - Loa is intact... Point is, yes, being intact does make for more mood swings in dogs (like people), but from my observations there is no clear agenda - there is no clear M.O. - some of the females are out right nasty during their cycle (like Masha), others are lazy and sleep all day (like Loa). Some in-tacked males are bonkers over in-season females, others are just mildly interested.
If anything, the sexuality of intact male and female dogs creates a more volatile management situation for humans, because of the individual personalities, but there is no clear protocol, predigests, rigid social structure, or stereotypes among their interactions. From my experience anyway.
"I did wonder about the idea of "reaching sexual maturity" in an altered bitch. Does such a thing as sexual maturity even exist in a spayed female? How much effect would hormonal changes have in dogs that have been spayed or neutered?"
>> This is a super interesting question. I honestly am not sure I have an answer. I would say sexual maturity is irrelevant for an altered animal, which may be why animals who are fixed very early on (like Maui, Hilo, Ahi, Mochi, and Kaia) tend to be more "puppy-ish" even with age. JMHO
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Chrys...
"but the breeder even told me if my male is reactive to get a female, but is it to be assumed that the akita will always rival another dog of its sex?"
>> Kahuna and Hilo have had 0 issues - not even a growl in each other's direction - ever... same with Fuji and Lani, same for Fuji and Hilo, or Lani and Hilo, or Fuji and Huna or Huna and Lani.
Have you asked this breeder how often they mix their dogs? Have you asked them how their dogs live? kenneled? do they have reactive dogs? Are they separated always? Never allowed to interact or separated after they have an issue? Did they get their dogs as pups and allow them to play as pups? Did they socialize their dogs with other dogs (and showing and trials do NOT count)? What was the last training or behavioral book this breeder read? (because, Chrys, you have read A LOT of them, my friend)
Breeders usually know their dogs well, and know their lines well, and can usually tell you the most granular details on their chosen scene (showing, working, trials, whatever)... but they usually have very little understanding of dog behavior or training. I honestly have not met a single breeder, out of 100s, who I felt comfortable taking behavioral or training advice from (sorry any breeders I have spoken to who read this - I still love your dogs - nothing personal).
For me, it is like going to your Midwife and asking suggestions on how to deal with your teenagers sexuality. Why would a Midwife be an authority on something so granular as teenage sexuality?
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"Hrm. So I'm the only one that has noticed an increased tendency to guard high value items from members of the same sex?"
>> Jen and I chatted about this, we have such a mixed bag of altered / unaltered dogs here, it is really hard for us to say we have noticed this. What we have noticed is that, generally speaking (similar to what Osy wrote), our males tend to be more laid back regarding the value system than our females. So, it may seem like a female is always taking something from a male, but I think that is more a reflection of the males different value system and perhaps this system from the roles the mother would play in raising pups - defending them and keeping food for them - apposed to a male who eats what he needs and moves on.
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Reilly was fixed early on, but she is not puppyish very often. She's still a peach though.
I am sure marking is more than territorial. I think- from walking Rei for 7 years- that it is often conversational. Not unlike a Forum.
It is always shocking to me to walk someone elses female who just pees once. or sniffs and moves on. how odd...
IMO, narrowing down why two same sex dogs don't get along is not the priority when it gets this bad. There's no luxury or room to experiment on behavioral theories because having a relapse is not worth it.
This is why I do not believe it wise to downplay same sex aggression as breed hype. It happens, for whatever the underlying reasons, and people should be forewarned.
I'm going to bow out of this topic now.
"So, it may seem like a female is always taking something from a male, but I think that is more a reflection of the males different value system"
My observations are not that my female is always taking things away from males. In fact, is that she's taking things or trying to prevent things from being taken from all dogs. The difference is in the intensity level. When it comes to other females, her intensity is much higher. I'll be the first to admit that I don't have a great sample size on this, so perhaps this is more unique to my particular female.
@Ann,
I don't think anyone is downplaying the potential dangers of dogs not getting along. I think people are arguing against making broad generalizations about a breed in particular. It's counterproductive to do so. The overarching point of this thread is that when living in a multi-dog household you have to manage the dogs interactions regardless of breed, regardless of sex, regardless of age. The point isn't that one shouldn't be wary and attentive when living with multiple dogs, the point is that one should always be wary and attentive when living with multiple dogs, regardless of breed, gender, etc. To say you have to be more attentive because you have two female Akita rather than a mixed pair of Shiba is inviting potential problems.
Yes, my Shibas....Male and female.
and yes, to the last point about being "more attentive" with two female akita vs. a mixed pair of Shiba, yes, must be attentive in general.
I think I would say to Ayk that I do understand the kind of fights you mean, completely, having carried a badly bleeding dog into the car, and rushing him to the emergency vet, then having to leave him at the vet for a month before he was stable enough to come home. And I agree--at that point what is most important is managing the behavior.
But I also see that while interesting, generalizations about how the sex of the dogs effect their behavior does not actually guarantee either good or bad behavior. I have a male and female. Conventional wisdom said they would be ok together, and clearly they were not. And may never be ok....I know I will never trust them together again.
And I totally understand both why the breeder asked about separation vs. rehoming a dog, and also understand your very natural hesitation there, and certainly it's not being a bad (prospective) owner to say I don't want to do that. My dogs have been separated full time for two years now. Now I'm used to it, and it is only hard to manage if I need to go somewhere (or worse, take them both somewhere). But it is far, far from ideal, and it's something I'll have to think about a lot too. What if I got another NK who needed to be separated from the other two? Can I handle that? Part of me says, well, I do it now, but part of me says, no I don't want it worse than it is now. (My third dog, my GSD, gets along fine with either of the Shibas)
So they are important questions.
Oh, and in my case, I see no more resource guarding in my female, but my male is a HUGE resource guarder (thankfully, we've worked on his behavior some, so it's not as bad as it was, but...) and Bel is very mild most of the time maybe a warning if the GSD gets a little closer to her food than he should, but that's it.
Just some thoughts
If you purchase your pup from a breeder, pay attention. It all boils down to the breeder and what are his breeding goals. If a breeder tells you that it's only normal for akita to fight with other dogs, that's just who they are - RUN. That means that there is no selection based on temperament and you might have Biiiiig problems with your dog. I have one breeder friend who has this opinion, his dogs won european dog shows and countless international shows, but his favorite male is a beast that cannot be left with males, females, puppies or humans (true, he is a stunning boy, but IMHO it's not enough). In his kennel male and female are paired together (if they get along), sometimes two dogs of the same sex if one is a puppy.
When I chose my female one of the main elements was how the breeder's dogs get along - all were living together, only the females in heat were removed from the group. Something on the lines of Brad and Jen's farm, but JA only. It's a great sight, let me tell you, awesome to see so many gorgeous dogs getting along with no quarrels.
Some stories - a breeder friend (not JA) has a female AA. When they went to the breeder to pick her up they saw lots of AA living together and one dog in a kennel by himself. The breeder said that dog is not to be trusted, it came from European breeders and did not have good temperament,that's why he was culled from the breeding program. He said after his experience with this dog they imported all their AA from the States because AA from the US have much better temperament than the ones bred in Europe.
A friend of mine has an AA and she haid two huskies before (male and female) and there were no worries. She put a LOT of training into her AA though and showed him that his place is at the bottom of the food chain LOL.
Another friend of mine has AA - quite vicious with other dogs if they are aggressive. Not going into details, whenever a dog wanted to attack him that dog ended up in the vet clinic or worse. He gets along with friendly dogs, pups of the same sex, he has an AA sister now and there are no problems. I know of other AA that live with dogs of the same sex - no problem whatsoever.
So, my conclusion would be - watch out for the individual, not the breed.
later edit:
Shibamistress, here is one story: a JA breeder friend of mine started off with a female (quite vicious to other dogs since she was just 3 months old). When the female was about one year old she brought in the male. Initially she didn't want him there, but after a few weeks they were ok. When the male challenged her alpha status (he was over one year old at the time) they had terrible fights (no one ended up at the vet clinic but they needed water hows to separate the dogs). After some time the male accepted the female's rule and all was well. When new dogs appear in the kennel, though, she doesn't accept them.
What motivates same-sex aggression in dogs? Is it really just resource guarding that intensifies between two dogs of the same sex? Or is it something else? If breeding competition isn't the factor, then why would sex of the dogs be significant at all in a conflict? Must we drag out the possibility of 'rank' (hard, soft or situational)?
If I hadn't packed away all my books, I'd be more helpful, but my books are buried and having a male female pair and plenty of other stuff to worry about, I never read up on it.
I genuinely believe that the same sex issue is hype. When dogs fight (the kind Ann is describing) there are other factors.
To put it in human perspective, woman on woman fights have been documented often more violent than opposite sex scuffles or even man against man. But we don't fight just because we are women. Something has to inspire an act of violence. Furthermore some individuals may be more inclined to solving things with violence.Individuals who were not taught to resolve issues through communication.
I feel this applies to dogs too. Dogs that are well socialized, healthy (this is HUGE, thyroid and neurological conditions can make a huge impact), and have been taught communications skills are far less likely to fight.
Every fight I have ever witnessed, the dog who at least started it, has SOMETHING going on. Either they were unwell, or a street dog, or had never encountered another friendly dog.
But in all my years in rescue, I have never seen a fight that was purely gender based.
http://www.badrap.org/rescue/multidogs.html
but even they say, "stick with opposite sex pairings. there are examples of same sex pairs that do well together but generally speaking boy-girl matches stand a MUCH better chance at succeeding long term."
I like BadRap for general dog (not just pitties) wisdom, and hype-busting, but there it is again.
I do know plenty of multidog, & multi breed homes that are harmonious, thinking about it.
I have to get off my chest that I have about had it with the dog fancy / breeding community's "Not For You" hype machine overall. Our breed is just for hunters, our breed is too aggressive for you, our breed is too active for you, you need to go meet more of our breed, you can't mix our dogs with X, dont get a male of our breed or he'll hate your husband, dont be surprised if our breed will have to be the boss of your existing dogs for the group to get along. What kind of ambassador promotes the breed only to rule everyone out by default from living with one? I mean there's screening bad owners out, but it's crazy to throw good people out with hype, intimidation and snobbishness too.