Whats every one's thoughts?
I spoke to a fellow hunter today and we started talking about hunting big game animals with the use of dogs.
The fellow hunter thought it was morrally wrong to use dogs to hunt hogs.
His arguement was that using dogs for hog hunting is wrong because it requires putting a dog in danger and the training required is abusive to both dogs and the pig used for training.
Now I understand that in some parts of the country, people use hog dogging as another way to gamble and I feel that is wrong. But to train pig dogs, one must at some point put the dog on live pigs.
Theres really no way around having to use a live pig to train hog dogs. Still to this day, the use of dogs to control feral swine population is the most efficient way to control nuisance pigs.
My feeling is it is a tool for conservation and a much needed method to control the ever increasing feral pig population.
So whats every one elses thought? I really would like to hear from both sides and reasons.
A great program to check out is National Geographic Channel's "pig bomb".
The fellow hunter thought it was morrally wrong to use dogs to hunt hogs.
His arguement was that using dogs for hog hunting is wrong because it requires putting a dog in danger and the training required is abusive to both dogs and the pig used for training.
Now I understand that in some parts of the country, people use hog dogging as another way to gamble and I feel that is wrong. But to train pig dogs, one must at some point put the dog on live pigs.
Theres really no way around having to use a live pig to train hog dogs. Still to this day, the use of dogs to control feral swine population is the most efficient way to control nuisance pigs.
My feeling is it is a tool for conservation and a much needed method to control the ever increasing feral pig population.
So whats every one elses thought? I really would like to hear from both sides and reasons.
A great program to check out is National Geographic Channel's "pig bomb".
Comments
I know I stumbled across websites for hunting coyotes with dogs and I absolutely believe that is abusive and simply awful, and I find it really hard to believe that states that outlaw dog fighting don't outlaw that. What I saw (and I wish I'd never clicked to watch some of those videos) were packs of dogs tearing coyotes apart. And then some really stupid hunters that don't deserve their dogs admitted that they "lost" a lot of dogs doing this, or had dogs terribly torn up. I wouldn't mind a few less coyotes--my Shiba got torn up pretty bad by one or more recently and she was in the yard. But I certainly don't think hunting them with dogs is the way to go, for either the dogs or the coyotes.
(Sorry for the coyote hunting hijack....it has been bothering me for awhile)
I'm not against hunting (I grew up in Alaska where it is part of life), but I want the death to be humane. So how does it go with pig hunting? And how does the training go?
Hunting ANY [ consumable ] animal w/ dogs [ whether it be Deer, Boar, Birds, etc. ] is more humane to me, than say, standing up in a tree all day, waiting for the animal to come by, then shoot it.
For one, I would argue hunting with dogs is more "natural." The way lions work together to take down a Wildebeest, or the way wolves work together to take down Caribou or Elk. The only difference, IMHO, is the animal gets a relatively quicker death as the hunter comes along & shoots it.
Yes, dogs can get hurt in the process. But humans can get hurt too. I think "hunting" has risks like many other outdoorsy sports / hobbies. [ even hiking has risks ]
Furthermore, I find hunting in general far more humane than the way many animals are slaughtered for mass meat sales.
But, a lot of my view comes from religious / cultural background. So don't know how much it's worth
describe what training he is referring to? I understand the hog (stress-possible injury) end of it, and that it's necessary to have live hogs, and that you have the hogs in a pen. I sincerely have no idea what abuse of dogs goes on in pig dog training methods? So what methods is he thinking of when he says he feels the training required is abusive to dogs?
Is it like other training for hunting dogs? I know that bird hunting training for other breeds has traditionally been fear/pain-centered (putting the dog on a plank, table height, in a slip lead - it would be unwise to fall off- pinching their toes, pinching ears to get them to open their mouths to take a bumper, the "force retrieve"), and that shock collars are a common tool if my Cabela's catalog and GunDogs Online (I buy bells and ornage stuff there) are any indication and only recently has there been crossover from reward-motivated training into hunting circles. Jim Barry (http://www.apdt.com/conf/archive/2008/speakers/bio_barry.aspx) in Rhode Island wrote a book "Positive Gundogs" which is the first book I have seen on bringing +training concepts to hunting training- I bought for my brother a few years ago. He also runs a training center where you can train retrievers, pointers, setters. (No hogs in New England, I dont think.)
I dont know very much about hunting training for dogs, but I DO know that there is stuff my brother will not do to his pointers in the name of training for hunting. His dogs are not field champions but he gets enough quails, pheasants and woodcock.
Some hunters buy "finished" dogs, all the unpleasant training presumably has been done and you dont need to pinch the dog yourself. Here the dog is on a barrel instead of a plank:
http://www.generosteecreek.com/kennel/training.html I am sure you learn quickly to stand perfectly still under that method. Is it like that?
There's a lot more to learn once you start digging around. It''s not all a glorious fall hike through the LL Bean catalog. I am not sure most people are aware at all- and I am not fully aware- of what hunting dogs truly mean from the temperament stuff we've discussed in this forum to what training is commonly employed training hunting dogs. So teach me- what training methods/techniques ARE used to train boar hunters and then we can better be able to judge if they seem abusive as the guy said. I personally feel that toe pinching and ear pulling and standing them on a plank is harsh.
Maybe harsh methods are still as commonly used in other training- are there things anyone who does Protecton training, or schutzhund doesn't like about what the instructor says to do? Is police dog training physical harsh or abusive? (I dont know, but I bet it is. and maybe it has to be- I remember Brad saying something about how a protection dog - and I am including by extension police dogs- have to be able to not shy from getting kicked in the ribs but only get madder- how would you know unless you tested him?) People still use ear pinches in benign things like obedience dumbbell retrieve training, as far as I know its the pet dogs who are getting most of the positive training. no?
I don't think it's necessary morally wrong to use dogs take kishu for instance in Japan they are breed to hunt game like boar so I'd think a dog breed for that type of work would love to hunt the way they are meant to hunt. Kinda like bloodhounds love to track they love to track well hunting dogs love to hunt..
Yes it's dangerous the boar is pretty aggressive, but that's why they need to be hunted down there are so many of them and they cause trouble in farms and even in neighborhoods.
Recently there was a show on animal planet called killer aliens about all the invasive species in Florida(Pouch rats, burmese python, monitor lizards, and boar) a sow was in a neighborhood and attacked a women.
I think if it's done right I'd say it's fine. I think it's a lot better than say baiting or using a call to bring the animal in..
To use Chry's example, pinch a dogs ear a few to many times and you end up with a dog that isn't too happy with getting his ears touched. Then a child comes along and goes to pet the dog's ears and the dog reacts defensively. You can't really blame that situation on the dog being a "hunting dog" or "working dog", can you?
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As for my opinion on whether or not training dogs to hunt large game is abusive or wrong, I don't see it as anymore abusive/wrong than training BCs to herd sheep, cattle dogs to drove or bate, or police dogs to bite people. They all require the dog to put themselves in a more dangerous position than they would simply sleeping on our couches. And in the herding examples I would argue that the training for those working roles is just as stressful on the sheep/cattle as it is on a boar being used to train pig dogs - after all, the animals being herded do not know they are being herded, they are reacting to the BC's or cattle dogs predatory sequences, and so in the sheep's/cattle's mind they are being hunted by a predator (the same mindset the pig is in while pig dog training).
As for it being abusive or immoral to put the dog in that position (a position where they may get hurt), if the dog is enjoying it and not forced to do it then I have no issue with it. My dogs do a lot of things on their own out of fun where there is a high risk of injury, is it immoral that I let them do that (like running and jumping in the sage brush or on/off of platforms)?
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BTW, I saw that show "Pig Bomb" - was very interesting. I liked how they also spoke of the Russian boars, it reminded me of how similar the wildlife and landscape of NA is to Russia. The land bridge has been gone for a long time, but their wildlife is still very very similar to ours. It was interesting.
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the use of dogs to control feral swine population is the most efficient way to control nuisance pigs
My understanding is that using dogs not only gets rid of the caught hogs, but also scares away the uncaught hogs for a while. This is beneficial to farmers who hire hunters to protect their crops. Live traps don't do the same as they don't have the scare factor, and hogs do become trap savy so they stay in the area. The only other alternative that is said to give equivalent results to using dogs is to shoot them by helicopter - which is cost-prohibitive to the farmers.
In the arena of hog eradication, any hog caught/killed is done for a justifiable reason and needs to be done with efficiency using the best tools, which is in this case are dogs. On less solid ground, IMO, are hunters who catch, castrate, and release. They're not doing it to eradiate. They're doing is so they can catch a bigger animal next time around. A boar (bar?) that is now dog-savy or human-savy and is an even greater danger when cornered. I don't like that.
There are people who less of an issue with bay dogs and more of an issue with catch dogs. There are still bay dog trials even in the ultra-AR leaning state of CA because the participants point out that dogs are penalized for biting the pig. At least it was about 4 years ago. I haven't asked the catahoula guy since then.
My understanding is that purely bay dogs are great for domestic hogs gone wild as these hogs have a tendency to stop and turn to face the dogs, but the Russians or Russian hybrids will run and run, making the chase even longer. A gritty cur (meaning willing to bite) or a fast catch dog is needed to stop these animals before they get out of range of the human hunter or outside of the permitted hunting grounds.
Theres really no way around having to use a live pig to train hog dogs.
In New Zealand, they don't like the idea of using pens to train dogs. They prefer to train new dogs with the seasoned dogs on an actual hunt. I don't know their success rate, but I've noticed that they use a lot of mixes. My guess is that a high turn-over of dead dogs is acceptable to them. The same happening in the US would probably create outcry and ban hog huntings with dogs.
Pen training is good to train the dog in a controlled environment, teaching it the skills and confidence around hogs, but it also serves another purpose. It's to find out the dogs that do "cur" out and should *not* be taken out for hunting. They're a danger to themselves and to their human hunter. As for the hog who is in the pen, my perception is that most of the time when the odds are set to outrageously favor the dog was when a show breeder was desperate to lay claims to having a "proven" dog. It happens less with hunters who want a hunting dog.
The way pig dogs are used is
a) find a nest or a pig in brush.
b) dog gives chase, corners, and bays (barking at pig) or holds (dog biting the pig to keep it from running)
c) hunter catches up to dogs and pig
d) hunter either shoots the pig at a very close distance or "sticks" (using a long blade knife or spear) a pig. FYI the use of a bladed knife is illegal for the take of pigs in Ca.
When pig sticking, the hunter will take the blade and cut into the heart of the pig. The pig wil usually bleed out for a few seconds and pass right away. It sounds cruel and sick but its very quick and keeps dogs from getting hurt from possible gun shots over penetrating or being accidentally shot.
I use a large caliber revolver to place a round in the heart or behind the ear.
I have hunted New Zealand many times and they actually have many hog dog training schools but the "pen" is actually is a acre or so fenced area with free roaming hogs. They will have a finished dog training a few new pups.
Using a finished dog to help train new dogs is extremely important and pen training does not finish a dog. All it will do is get a new dog ready to contact a hog, the finishing part is done in the woods after some time spent on actual hunts.
Now on the best hunting technique for pigs: The reason dogs are at the top for pig control is because a dog can hunt day or night. Pigs are mostly nocturnal and most of the time you will catch them early in the morning or late in the after noon if you are spotting and stalking. Dogs can sniff out and find pigs in the thickest cover at the darkest time at night. Other then traps, i cant think of any better way even a helicopter has its limits.
I read a study that was conducted by a major university some where out east. The study was to find out if whitetail deer lost its predator fear in ranges where wolves used to roam. To conduct this study, they chose a state which allowed the use of dogs to hunt deer and a state that out laws the use of dogs to hunt deer.
the study found that states that outlawd the use of dogs had more deer that lost its fear of predators and thus the deer were much smaller. In states that allowed the use of dogs to hunt deer, the deer where larger and stronger and also had better herd size.
It was really interesting, I will find it again and post it up.