How would you pick a pup out of a litter?
I've been really enjoying all the 'question' threads as I think it brings out a lot of useful opinions and information. So thought I'd put this one out there.
Personally I've been seeing a lot of NK puppies over the past couple years. Picking my first pup was a long drawn out affair and I tried to do as much research as possible so I wouldn't get it wrong. I made a few mistakes, but learned a lot along the way.
So my question is how would you pick a pup out of a litter? And to add to that would you (or have you) let the breeder pick a pup for you?
Obviously everyone has different traits they're looking for in their future companions and different ways of looking for a pup exhibiting those traits. Just interested in finding out how everyone has picked (or will pick) their pups.
Personally I've been seeing a lot of NK puppies over the past couple years. Picking my first pup was a long drawn out affair and I tried to do as much research as possible so I wouldn't get it wrong. I made a few mistakes, but learned a lot along the way.
So my question is how would you pick a pup out of a litter? And to add to that would you (or have you) let the breeder pick a pup for you?
Obviously everyone has different traits they're looking for in their future companions and different ways of looking for a pup exhibiting those traits. Just interested in finding out how everyone has picked (or will pick) their pups.
Comments
The breeder will be the one spending all their time with the pups, seeing the pups grow, etc. I think the breeder would be able to do a better job at picking a pup for me, then I would for myself LOL [ they would know the puppies temperament MUCH better then I would, breeder spends 8 weeks with the pup, & can pick better, IMHO, than I can on one visit ]
But, If I was able to go see the pups, let's say, once a week until they're ready to go home [ & thus be able to "fully" assess them better ] I would pick based on the breeder's advice. [ IE: let the breeder pick their "#1, #2, & #3 for me, then give me the final say ]
I still believe though the breeder will know the puppies best, since they will have witnessed them in a variety of situations
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Also, I still consider myself a major dog n00b LOL SO I'd feel more confident in letting the breeder pick. ~
To put it into simple words:
- If I'm looking for a puppy for scentwork, I'd lay a scent track and find out which puppy has the best "nose". I'd most likely lay multiple scents and pick the puppy that will not quit (doesn't get bored) and has intense drive for sniffing out stuff.
- If I'm looking for a puppy for bitework, I'd pick the puppy that tends to be more "mouthy" but one with good grips. Whoever has the stronger hold when lifted with a tug or another biting toy off the ground.
- If I'm looking for a puppy for retrivework, I'd pick the puppy that has the drive to run after whatever I throw in front of him/her and mouths at it...better yet, BRINGS it back to me!
- If I'm looking for mainly a pet, I'd pick the puppy that seems the more calm of the bunch and one that is less mouthy, ideally a puppy that isn't very reactive but also a puppy that is secure and confident.
- If I'm looking for a puppy for hunting or herding, I'd want to test out the pup on livestock and she the reaction. Will puppy chase livestock? Will puppy bite or bark at livestock? Will puppy run circles around the livestock or does puppy charge directly at the livestock?
Generally when looking for a puppy there are multiple angles to look for, but you'd want to pick the best traits in which corresponds to your choice of work. Having a dog with natural ability makes training a lot easier and perhaps more fun for both you and the dog.
My father had told me that in the old days, they used to pick up pups by their tails, similar to what's described in the Akita book, "DOGMAN". He doesn't do that himself, especially in the US, but he does test a litter out by startling them and seeing which pup is the first to recover. Maybe it was coincidence, but it predicted his last dog's personality pretty well.
In picking a dog where conformation is a priority, I would consider the input of the breeder if that person is experienced and has the eye to pick out details, but I would also bring along someone who knows how to do a Pat Hastings evaluation of structure. Pat Hastings' theory is that there's a small age window whereby the puppy's structure is representative of his adult's structure. I would also like to see the pups move around. A well-known Shiba breeder/judge that I know of picks her own puppies via evaluation of movement. The idea is that if they're put together properly, they'll move properly. It seems to have worked for her.
I may let a breeder pick the pup if I'm sure of the experience and knowledge of the breeder, and if they spend a good deal of time exposing, testing, and evaluating the litter. Trust in the breeder's motives is essential for me though. (Thinking of other breeds/instances.)
I really like the idea of startling the puppies and seeing how quickly they recover, but that's not the whole picture on confidence. I think a better approach would be to also see how easily they startle. I've spent years building Joey's confidence and he recovers extremely quickly these days (within a few seconds), but he still startles at the drop of a hat (or empty water bottle, or tissue, or etc.).
Second behind confidence for me is human friendliness. I've actually spoken at length about this with Brad, and it's a personal preference I have. I thoroughly enjoy seeing my dogs interact with other people. I hate having to tell people they can't interact with my dogs. To me, a dog that doesn't do as well with other dogs is a minor annoyance at times but a dog that interacts poorly with people is a huge bother.
Once I've found a puppy that is confident and human friendly, then I'll start to look at the "working" traits Corina talked about. My current obsession is hunting dogs, so I'd be looking for a dog with a good nose and a nice balanced drive. Ideally I could see the puppies doing scent work or interacting with game. Short of that, I'd settle for some contrived scenarios that might give me some insight. I'm not exactly sure what those would be at this point, but I'd give it some thought if I were actually faced with making a choice.
Lastly, I'd ask for breeders advice/input. Not only do breeders know their dogs, but they have some idea of how the puppies they produce tend to mature. That information can be extremely useful when making your final decision.
I generally agree with what Dave and Corina wrote, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a breeder that would allow you to pick your puppy from the entire litter based on those little tests Corina mentioned - even if you paid for a "pick" pup.
Then, if you pay for a "pick" pup from a breeder, more than likely, that doesn't mean you will get to pick your pup out of the whole litter. It means you will pick from the group of pups they selected for you to pick from - which means they probably kept the best pups for themselves.
Yes, I would allow a breeder to pick a pup for me, if I trusted the breeder's judgment and their relationship with me. This is where my opinion differs a bit from Dave / Corina...
I would rather get my pup from a kennel that specialized in breeding for the type of work I am looking for (PP, Herding, Retrieving, Hunting, guarding), and I would only buy from a breeder that guaranteed that the pup would work. Then I would pick the pup from that breeder that best suits my personal likes... Like I prefer a more difficult dog, so I would rather have the more difficult dog from the litter (the one with the highest drive or the most defensive) - that's just my personal taste, and the breeder will probably not have the same taste as me. I don't have any issue with human friendlessness, so I wouldn't worry about that in the pup I picked - but Dave would, so he would probably pick the friendliest pup - either way we would both be getting a pup that was guaranteed to fulfill the role we are getting him for.
From my experience, the best way to get the BEST pup from a litter (that you didn't breed yourself) is to make it worth the breeder's while to place a top-quality puppy with you - maybe you will work them and title them which will add merit to the breeder's program - or maybe you will keep them intact for the breeder to use later... That will turn the ownership into more of an investment for the breeder instead of just a ticket to get a little extra cash by letting you pick your pup.
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Now, for the core question, as to how to pick a puppy out of a litter... how to obtain the "eye" for the right pup. That's really hard to do unless you have been breeding for 20+ years and know what you have produced and what your puppies mature to be like.
I've spent hours and hours working with our CO breeder on puppy selection and studying what certain puppies grow to be as adults... and I gotta say, its pure luck. You CAN tell a lot about the temperament, and maybe a little bit of the structure too, but I don't think there is any secret knowledge that would make you a better puppy picker than the next guy - it all comes down to luck, IMHO. I think that's where selecting your puppy based on bloodlines and from a kennel that produces consistent results is super important (and maybe even more important than getting "pick" of the litter).
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+1 ~
Does this typically mean if you have a female that you have to send her off to live with the breeder for a few months when she delivers and nurses?
A friend of mine had a golden she kept intact and the breeder arranged the mating, but the mother continued to live at her own home, delivered and nursed her pups there till the pups went home to the owners the breeder arranged. The dog's owner just had to care for her and the pups- she did a good job of it, staying up with her and in constant contact with the breeder, had to take her for an emergency delivery when she developed The Green Stuff, but only 1 pup was lost.
Is that common (mother stays in her own home)?
I imagine keeping stress low for mama is important.
She only lived an hour away, so it was pretty convenient, and he did get a stud fee.
I let Roberta pick out Koda for me. We spoke about what I wanted temperment wise and what sex. I was stuck on a boy because that's who I think I bond with best. Plus, I figured a boy would be better in a one dog family. Not sure why I thought this at all. We went through my personality traits, homelife, and who Koda would be around (like my niece and cousins all around 8). She had two pups that gravitated towards her daughter, Koda and his sister. I think she wanted me to take the girl at one point but I was stuck on a boy. She chose Koda for me, and whether luck or not, he was exactly a match for me. But it was probably luck.
I really think it's a crap shoot when picking out from a litter. I'm with Brad, pick the kennel and the parents you want and let fait take it's course. You really can't say what a pup is going to grow up to be.
You might be able to tell as far as confirmation goes. I'll let Stacey respond to how she picked out Tora from the group since she had first pick.
>> I have heard that to be the case, but I have not seen that to be the case. I have seen many of my breeder friends going to whatever measures needed to make a breeding happen - male goes to female, female goes to male, female does an AI, male and female meet at vet and do AI...
"I imagine keeping stress low for mama is important."
>> I agree. This should be the number one concern not breeder etiquette. The plan you described above is exactly how I would do it (if it were a female). Actually, that is the "deal" we have with Masha (who is currently pregnant, btw).
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Wait...I missing Masha puppies?! BOO! [ but this means the kai pups will have CO pups to play with!!! ] ~
Is Loa pregnant, and I just didn't read another thread? hmmmm :-P
Yes, Masha is pregnant (vet said "95% sure") with BIG L's pups. Due in about 20 days. This was the arrangement I had with Masha's breeder if I were to take Luytiy and get a pick female as Masha was from the last Onega breeding and Luytiy has a very important linage.
To tie this to the topic, with this agreement I got a 1.5 year old (at the time) male that was healthy and ready to work (which is what I needed) and a pick female. We picked Masha out of all the pups - out of 2 different litters actually - at the age of 5 weeks and then again at 8 weeks. So, I consider Masha a "true pick". Our breeder also gave us her opinion, and we talked it over at length and all felt Masha was a great choice (and still do). We also met Luytiy at the 5 week mark.
Masha at 5 weeks (because she was the cutest thing ever):
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3058/3002237334_5f0111647a_m.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3213/3001401763_cbd66a42d1_m.jpg
ETA - Masha's breeding was a favor to a very good friend and is done through her kennel. Jen and I are not CO breeders and never will be.
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I'm so excited for you! CO Breeder or not, we want lots of pics when the pups are born! Katya will send you her chair with the red blanket on it for posing puppies.
Go Big L!
--- OH & we are SO planning our next visit around when you guys actually have pups in the house! LOL~
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Personally I'm starting to think that finding a breeder you can trust is the most important part of finding the right pup. A person who knows their breed, knows their dogs and their lines. Someone who does different activities with their dogs in various settings so they can see their dogs reactions. Then let that breeder know what you're like and what kind of temperament you're looking for. Of course in the end a lot of it does come down to luck.
I used to be of the mindset that I had to do tons of research and pick the 'right' pup. After seeing so many pups I'm seeing that the breeder that has more knowledge than I do, and sees the pups everyday will be better able to gauge them. If I know the breeder and trust them, I'd be okay with letting them pick for me. Otherwise, no.
I'm in a great situation now where I get a lot of feedback from Nippo judges about pups, get to see a lot of litters with them, so from the conformation side I'm finally able to guess which pups are the 'best' pick of the litter. Same goes for working dogs, I'm getting to where at least I know what I'm looking for. Even with the Kai pups that have been here recently I've seen them change over the course of a day though. But then again I guess I'm just seeing their reactions to things changing and not necessarily their base temperament.
The only thing I 100% stay away from is shy dogs. Personally I think you can manage a lot of temperament issues, but a shy dog is just not pleasurable for me to own or work with.