@Dave S. - - I'm sure you probably didn't read the LGD PDF I posted above, which is fine, but I wanted to point out this blurb:
"There are similar reports of wolves killing LPDs in France, and both hunting dogs and LPDs in Italy (Rigg 2001). Wolves in the United States have been taking their toll on hunting dogs, as well. There were 49 hunting dogs confirmed as killed by wolves in Wisconsin 2004 through 2006, with an additional 10 injured (Ruid et al. 2009). The 35 dogs confirmed to have been killed by wolves in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming during 2006 to 2008 included LPDs, hunting dogs, and pets (U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service 2009)."
If I recall correctly, you live in Wisconsin, right? Not trying to scare you, just passing on the info (I know I would want to know about those statistics if they applied to me).
And I have to add after reading the article, it does make me more interested in LGD's....Though my neighbor's Great Pyrenees is virtually useless...but I suspect like all dogs it has to do with breeding.
I do like the look of Kuvasz though....And I've been kind of love with the Anatolian Shepherd for awhile--though I'm not entirely sure they fall into the LGD category? Or are they more herding dogs? Off to google it.
But thanks for the article Brad, which I found very interesting.
Brad,
Yes , I do live live in Northern Wisconsin & there is a healthy population of Wolves & bears here .Yes it is true that around here wolves & bears have tangled with & killed a number of bear hounds. And on very rare occasions bears have killed small dogs in backyards . Please , please don't think that I'm ignorant as I often have difficulty expressing my thoughts in type. I love wildlife in all of it's forms . By profession I work with wildlife & hunters everyday. In almost every case the reason for these problems was because of humans. I am not sure I can explain myself that you & others can understand but when wildlife is left alone with plenty of "natural" habitat & "natural" food sources and not threatened by people there are rarely any conflicts .
I understand wolf ,bear & coyote behavior, & again I am not arrogant & naive to the potential threats they can pose to pets & livestock . I guess I make every attempt to live in harmony & not conflict with wildlife. I hope this does not create a firestorm of stories of wildlife /dog horror stories that I will have to try to defend my position. But this philosophy & works for me .
@Dave S. - I was not implying or thinking you are arrogant and/or naive. At all. I was just sharing statistical data with you. I was honestly surprised by the numbers in those stats for Wisconsin while having much lower numbers in other areas (like Wyoming). That was all.
I agree, if large wild predators have natural (food) resources in their environment then they are less likely to kill/hunt our pets. That's a no brainer. Having written that, even in places like Yellowstone, where resources should be very abundant (more abundant that Northern Wisconsin, I assume), there are still attacks on domestic animals by large predators - so clearly some predators don't play by those rules.
Still, as I wrote in my previous post about the stats, the intention of my post was not to call you out, or scare you, or anything like that, I was simply sharing info that I found interesting.
@Dave....this isn't to make you defend your position at all, it's out of interest. (and certainly anyone else might have thoughts on this too) What do you think about coyotes? I'm asking because so many have come into suburban (even urban!) areas. So is the (seeming) rise in conflicts with coyotes because in surburban areas they are considering domestic animals food?
I live in what I'd call a semi-rural area--plenty of houses here on .5 acre lots, but we're surrounded by open space. I've heard and seen coyotes--and even a couple of bears--ever since I've lived here (8 years), but never had a problem with them until this year. That said, I'm aware there are WAY more coyotes this year than ever before (or so it sounds from their calls at night, and from the sightings I've been having). Still, I'm not convinced they were planning to eat my Shiba--she was guarding very aggressively (she goes crazy when she just hears coyotes) and it could have been a territorial thing.
I don't seem to be expressing myself well either...not enough coffee perhaps...but I guess I'm wondering if you have thoughts about dealing with coyotes, why there might suddenly be more conflicts with them, etc....Could it be about territory rather than resources, etc.
After this happened with my dog, I read a fair amount about coyotes and interactions with pets, and was surprised to see there were more problems than I had expected--even with coyotes occasionally attacking dogs on leashes (one in Golden Gate Park!). But likely it is just these things get reported more.
No worries my friend ,I know that. I just often get frustrated with my own inabilities to clearly communicate my thoughts as well as everyone else, so I try extra, extra hard not to come across wrong.
It's just a real quick thought , regarding the stats from Wyoming to Wisc. Much of Wisc. is very lush & heavily wooded whereas most western states have a lot of open terrain . I think there is a greater likely hood of surprising a predator in a lush wooded environment, thus causing them to respond in an aggressive way as opposed to running off if he heard or saw you approaching well in advance .Just a little food for thought, no pun intended!:)
In the real world that we live in, people & wildlife habitat now overlap & unfortunately wildlife pays a very high price . Yes , you are so right that even with ideal habitat some predators develop a lack of respect or fear of people and a taste for easy prey such as livestock & pets. I know statistics are factual as far as numbers are concerned, but I think you'll agree they often can be misleading & not tell the complete story.
I 've often heard you mention the presence of mountain lions where you live. I would love to hear your experiences with them. Maybe on another post though we're really veering away from Cliff & his situation with his fence. :)
Lisa,
I wish I had a solution to your & so many others issues with coyotes. They have learned to adapt ,survive & even thrive in sub and urban environments. Now unfortunately the problem is almost out of control and can't be reversed . Urban coyotes have lost their fear of man. As natural carnivores & scavengers they will grab meal anywhere they can, even our pets. In my opinion at this point the only way to deal with urban coyotes is to kill them I don't say this lightly but I personally know of no other solution. They are very crafty animals so whatever we do to deture them they will again adapt. I know this offered you nothing as far as options ..sorry.:(
Ok, I grew up in Alaska. Bears--esp. brown bears--scare the hell out of me. What really really disturbs me to see all those people watching...it's just a bad situation waiting to happen....(as they say)
Re: mountain lions (I live in NM too, but further south than Brad, in the mountains outside albuquerque). I haven't seen any on my side of the state road, but apparently on the other side (which right against the state forest) there have been quite a few mountain lion sightings. They are also likely to go after dogs, but I haven't heard it happening here (yet). some people who have built ponds tell me they've seen them drinking from the ponds, since water, is, of course, a scarce resource here.
I'm a great lover of foxes, and used to see them fairly regularly around, but since the coyote population skyrocketed, I haven't seen any. I guess the coyotes kill the grey foxes that live around here....:(
I don't know what to do about the coyotes either. I would much rather coexist with wildlife, and like I said, I grew up in Alaska, which had a huge predator control program that I very much disagreed with. I still do. And I admit a thrill every time I see a coyote, or hear them....I still feel lucky to live among wild animals. But sometimes I wonder if there are too many, too, and too many that are too fearless. Maybe not. I just realize that in the past couple of years, the sheer amount of pretty fearless coyotes has made me think about things in ways I never did before.
Or maybe I'm just another person who moves into a fairly wild area and then complains about wildlife. I never thought I was like that, growing up in a much wilder area, but we also didn't have many coyotes in Alaska, and though wolves will kill and eat dogs, wolves also are usually much less likely to be hanging about people's houses...
And you're right, we've moved far afield...and I contributed to that...:) sorry!
Lisa ,
This is kinda funny but your profile says you live in China! When I was chatting with you I thought to myself ,wow I had no idea they had coyote issues there.I'm with you I also get great pleasure watching & coexisting with wildlife. In the case of urban coyotes, many of them have now been born in this environment & taught by there parents how to survive in that habitat .Future generations I believe will begin to lose much of their "natural" instincts & behaviors .It's actually very sad. Welcome to the U.S. lol! :)
*lol* I see my attempts to get myself placed on the map have gone seriously awry! At first it said I was in Indiana or something, then I tried to put in my coordinates...oh well!
About Mountain Lions, I have actually not seen any. I've been trying to get them on my game cam but have had no success. Actually I have had little success getting anything on my Game Cam since Luytiy has been outside 24/7. My neighbor says her husband has seen Cougar and Black bear on the trails behind our house at night (he goes on full moon hikes) tho.
Since the part of the Rockies (the southern Rockies) we live by (15 minutes from the house) are very remote, there are a lot of Mountain Lion attacks. First year we lived here 2 people were killed on a trail we frequent, the next year a mountain biker was attacked, and this past year a man stumbled between a mother and her cubs and was chased and bitten badly - all this within 15-20 minutes of our house.
I have also been told there are a large number of Cougar who den in the walls of the Rio Grande Gorge, which is walking distance from our house (about a mile). While on walks, the dogs have uncovered some scat from time to time as well.
While I readily see Eagle and Coyote, almost on a weekly basis, it is the Mountain Lions (Cougar) that really freak me out as they can easily jump a 6+ foot fence and could probably take out Luytiy with one bite. The chances of them actually coming into our fenced yard and killing our dogs are, admittedly, pretty slim but, I'd rather be safe than sorry.
We have had Coyote in our yard in the past, and that is kinda crazy, but I honestly feel Ahi or Kona could take them, so Luytiy is probably overkill... But I like that his size is a deterrent alone, and seems to work well. This are is called "Parvo Valley" due to the number of Coyote and feral dogs that roam the Native Pueblo land around here, so keeping them at a safe distance is top priority.
So, that's been my goal - to deter the predators - I want them kept away, I don't want them killed. I see no point in risking a confrontation between our dogs and any wild predators. Also, the Coyote and Feral dogs are drawn to our females when they are in heat, so that adds to the complexity of our situation.
We also have a lot of transients / runaways that call the Mesa (the area west of the Rio Grande Gorge) home, they camp out in remote areas in lawless makeshift cities and then come into town to do their biz or hitch a ride. We happen to live on a (private) road that ends at some hot springs at the base of the Rio Grande Gorge, and so many of the people that live out on the Mesa use our road to get to the hot springs for bathing - so that is why I chose an LGD breed like the CO & CC who are both canine and human aggressive... you know, just to be safe. We basically live on the edge of what many consider to be the last of the "wild west".
It's always so interesting to hear about a persons particular situation it can totally explain why a person makes certain decisions. It sounds like you have all your bases covered ,as best possible anyway.
As far as your game camera , I'm not exactly sure what your options are as far as location is concerned and I know you don't want to attract critters to you home . Have you ever tried using bait ,like a dead rabbit tied by the leg & to a stake or tree. You can usually get some great shots over bait.
Yeah Brad! Put that game cam to use! Since Luytiy came along it's been a wasted Xmas gift lol [ the forum's going to have to think of something more useful this year lol ]
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It's interesting to hear about the different wild life in the different areas.
Down here, our #1 animal killer are snakes. People buy pythons, then when they get to be 6feet, throw them out into the wild. Pythons can survive easily down here, & keep growing to be 10 feet or more. Tons of people leave their dogs outside unsupervised in the yard, & a fence wont really stop a snake. So the pythons get in & grab the small-medium dogs. [ as well as stray / outside cats ]
#2 would be the gators. They like to sneak into swimming pools, small man-made ponds, & the random lakes scattered everywhere. & They LOVE dogs for some reason. Tons of people lose their dogs to gators because the owners decided to walk to the dogs next to a lake.
#3 would be Eagles. Tons & Tons of eagles down here. The Bald eagles love to snatch up small dogs, especially in the more rural areas.
We've got coyote, but they're more like the scavenger types. You very rarely see them, & when you do, they're tiny. I'd say a shikoku is bigger than the coyote we have here.
We do have bears, & last year the black bear attacks were rampant---however, this is soley on the hiking trails. Usually tho, they tend to leave people alone, last year was sort of a "freak" year.
We also have Florida Panthers, [ which is very similar to a Mountain Lion / Cougar ] but they're SO endangered it's really sad. There's only about 100 left in the wild. Hardly a threat.
It makes me really happy that the local wildlife aren't too bad down here, but the Florida Panther scenario is pretty depressing. ~
I don't want to rock the boat, but I ran across this article on DogStarDaily and I thought there were some interesting points with regard to possible behavior impact of invisible fences. Primarily in suburban areas. Thought it was worth sharing.
Hmm. Interesting article, Jessica... If it is not getting too terribly off topic, I would like to look at this from a couple of different angles.
First off, I think training a 10 week old puppy on an invisible fence is a BAD idea. When I had mine installed, I was told that 16 weeks was the youngest age that they would even consider training a puppy, and this if it was a larger breed dog. From my two experiences with training, a dog younger than that does not have the attention span to be trained correctly.
Secondly, I know that invisible fence says that in order for them to guarantee the fence, they have to have it installed in both the front and back yard... So be it... But that does NOT mean that your dog needs to be in the front yard. It also does not mean that the fence has to border the property line next to the road. With my fence system, it was in the back yard, bordering the property lines and SEPARATED from the front yard. The front yard was also fenced, but the boundary line was only about 20 feet away from the front of the house. In my instance, the dogs were never let out in the front without a leash... I just felt more comfortable that way.
Now, I agree, that without the proper training and management, invisible fences could very well be a disaster waiting to happen. Please do not get me wrong about that. Invisible fences should be a TOOL to keep your dogs in your yard, but the proper care must be made to ensure that the tool is used correctly and without adverse affects to the dog.
With that said... I am curious to know what the author of this article thinks about electric fences used for cattle, horses, and other livestock... It is a similar principle, where the animal receives an unpleasant sensation if they attempt to cross the boundary. Granted, electric fences are visible, but invisible fences give an audible warning when the boundary is reached before the shock. So both devices have some type of warning, either visible or audible. Do electric fences cause fear or aggression in livestock? If they do, how is it managed?
I hope I did not just open a giant can of worms, but I am actually really curious to hear some responses and discussion regarding this.
Thanks for the article, Jessica. It says some of the same thing that the Whole Dog Journal article that came out a couple of years ago said, though their article was longer and more detailed. Of course you can't link most WDJ articles, or I would find it and do that. I'll dig around though and see if I see any of their source material online...
I would think that the issue of aggression would be quite different in a prey animal (like a cow or horse) then it would be in a predator, esp. one that is territorial like a dog. I would also think it would very much depend on the individual dog. And I do think it could make a difference between a visible fence and an invisible one....
eta: turns out someone else had the article on their webpage, so here it is:
As an update on the original thread topic - though it is actually less interesting than the drift, lol - I haven't bothered installing the invisible fence and I don't think I will.
We found a spot in the fence where she was able to get through the chicken wire (Saki said "hey! there are little bits of white fur on this wire!") and I replaced it and no new escapes yet.
I have - groan - begun a do-it-yourself fence replacement project, I did one section of fence this past weekend as a learning experience. I plan on doing one post per non-rainy weekend, maybe I will get done with the whole thing this year, maybe not. Its a split-rail fence so I pretty much attach Tomoe to a tie-out stake, remove chicken wire, pull post out of ground, deepen hole from 2 to 3 1/2 feet, put in new post, replace rails, etc. Not a big deal. I will have the fricking shoulders from hell by the end of this summer lol.
Lately Tomoe has been going through one of her phases where she is more interested in mommy, daddy, and the kitty than what's going on in the neighborhood, which is interesting. She's actually - gasp - starting to come to the back door when called!
Comments
"There are similar reports of wolves killing LPDs in France, and both hunting dogs and LPDs in Italy (Rigg 2001). Wolves in the United States have been taking their toll on hunting dogs, as well. There were 49 hunting dogs confirmed as killed by wolves in Wisconsin 2004 through 2006, with an additional 10 injured (Ruid et al. 2009). The 35 dogs confirmed to have been killed by wolves in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming during 2006 to 2008 included LPDs, hunting dogs, and pets (U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service 2009)."
If I recall correctly, you live in Wisconsin, right? Not trying to scare you, just passing on the info (I know I would want to know about those statistics if they applied to me).
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I do like the look of Kuvasz though....And I've been kind of love with the Anatolian Shepherd for awhile--though I'm not entirely sure they fall into the LGD category? Or are they more herding dogs? Off to google it.
But thanks for the article Brad, which I found very interesting.
Oh, and yes, Anatolians are LGD, not herders. There is an Anatolian breeder in Santa Fe that I want to visit one day: http://www.taluswindranch.com/shepherd.html
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Yes , I do live live in Northern Wisconsin & there is a healthy population of Wolves & bears here .Yes it is true that around here wolves & bears have tangled with & killed a number of bear hounds. And on very rare occasions bears have killed small dogs in backyards . Please , please don't think that I'm ignorant as I often have difficulty expressing my thoughts in type. I love wildlife in all of it's forms . By profession I work with wildlife & hunters everyday. In almost every case the reason for these problems was because of humans. I am not sure I can explain myself that you & others can understand but when wildlife is left alone with plenty of "natural" habitat & "natural" food sources and not threatened by people there are rarely any conflicts .
I understand wolf ,bear & coyote behavior, & again I am not arrogant & naive to the potential threats they can pose to pets & livestock . I guess I make every attempt to live in harmony & not conflict with wildlife. I hope this does not create a firestorm of stories of wildlife /dog horror stories that I will have to try to defend my position. But this philosophy & works for me .
I agree, if large wild predators have natural (food) resources in their environment then they are less likely to kill/hunt our pets. That's a no brainer. Having written that, even in places like Yellowstone, where resources should be very abundant (more abundant that Northern Wisconsin, I assume), there are still attacks on domestic animals by large predators - so clearly some predators don't play by those rules.
Still, as I wrote in my previous post about the stats, the intention of my post was not to call you out, or scare you, or anything like that, I was simply sharing info that I found interesting.
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I live in what I'd call a semi-rural area--plenty of houses here on .5 acre lots, but we're surrounded by open space. I've heard and seen coyotes--and even a couple of bears--ever since I've lived here (8 years), but never had a problem with them until this year. That said, I'm aware there are WAY more coyotes this year than ever before (or so it sounds from their calls at night, and from the sightings I've been having). Still, I'm not convinced they were planning to eat my Shiba--she was guarding very aggressively (she goes crazy when she just hears coyotes) and it could have been a territorial thing.
I don't seem to be expressing myself well either...not enough coffee perhaps...but I guess I'm wondering if you have thoughts about dealing with coyotes, why there might suddenly be more conflicts with them, etc....Could it be about territory rather than resources, etc.
After this happened with my dog, I read a fair amount about coyotes and interactions with pets, and was surprised to see there were more problems than I had expected--even with coyotes occasionally attacking dogs on leashes (one in Golden Gate Park!). But likely it is just these things get reported more.
No worries my friend ,I know that. I just often get frustrated with my own inabilities to clearly communicate my thoughts as well as everyone else, so I try extra, extra hard not to come across wrong.
It's just a real quick thought , regarding the stats from Wyoming to Wisc. Much of Wisc. is very lush & heavily wooded whereas most western states have a lot of open terrain . I think there is a greater likely hood of surprising a predator in a lush wooded environment, thus causing them to respond in an aggressive way as opposed to running off if he heard or saw you approaching well in advance .Just a little food for thought, no pun intended!:)
In the real world that we live in, people & wildlife habitat now overlap & unfortunately wildlife pays a very high price . Yes , you are so right that even with ideal habitat some predators develop a lack of respect or fear of people and a taste for easy prey such as livestock & pets. I know statistics are factual as far as numbers are concerned, but I think you'll agree they often can be misleading & not tell the complete story.
I 've often heard you mention the presence of mountain lions where you live. I would love to hear your experiences with them. Maybe on another post though we're really veering away from Cliff & his situation with his fence. :)
I wish I had a solution to your & so many others issues with coyotes. They have learned to adapt ,survive & even thrive in sub and urban environments. Now unfortunately the problem is almost out of control and can't be reversed . Urban coyotes have lost their fear of man. As natural carnivores & scavengers they will grab meal anywhere they can, even our pets. In my opinion at this point the only way to deal with urban coyotes is to kill them I don't say this lightly but I personally know of no other solution. They are very crafty animals so whatever we do to deture them they will again adapt. I know this offered you nothing as far as options ..sorry.:(
Crazy, huh?
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Re: mountain lions (I live in NM too, but further south than Brad, in the mountains outside albuquerque). I haven't seen any on my side of the state road, but apparently on the other side (which right against the state forest) there have been quite a few mountain lion sightings. They are also likely to go after dogs, but I haven't heard it happening here (yet). some people who have built ponds tell me they've seen them drinking from the ponds, since water, is, of course, a scarce resource here.
I'm a great lover of foxes, and used to see them fairly regularly around, but since the coyote population skyrocketed, I haven't seen any. I guess the coyotes kill the grey foxes that live around here....:(
I don't know what to do about the coyotes either. I would much rather coexist with wildlife, and like I said, I grew up in Alaska, which had a huge predator control program that I very much disagreed with. I still do. And I admit a thrill every time I see a coyote, or hear them....I still feel lucky to live among wild animals. But sometimes I wonder if there are too many, too, and too many that are too fearless. Maybe not. I just realize that in the past couple of years, the sheer amount of pretty fearless coyotes has made me think about things in ways I never did before.
Or maybe I'm just another person who moves into a fairly wild area and then complains about wildlife. I never thought I was like that, growing up in a much wilder area, but we also didn't have many coyotes in Alaska, and though wolves will kill and eat dogs, wolves also are usually much less likely to be hanging about people's houses...
And you're right, we've moved far afield...and I contributed to that...:) sorry!
This is kinda funny but your profile says you live in China! When I was chatting with you I thought to myself ,wow I had no idea they had coyote issues there.I'm with you I also get great pleasure watching & coexisting with wildlife. In the case of urban coyotes, many of them have now been born in this environment & taught by there parents how to survive in that habitat .Future generations I believe will begin to lose much of their "natural" instincts & behaviors .It's actually very sad. Welcome to the U.S. lol! :)
Since the part of the Rockies (the southern Rockies) we live by (15 minutes from the house) are very remote, there are a lot of Mountain Lion attacks. First year we lived here 2 people were killed on a trail we frequent, the next year a mountain biker was attacked, and this past year a man stumbled between a mother and her cubs and was chased and bitten badly - all this within 15-20 minutes of our house.
I have also been told there are a large number of Cougar who den in the walls of the Rio Grande Gorge, which is walking distance from our house (about a mile). While on walks, the dogs have uncovered some scat from time to time as well.
While I readily see Eagle and Coyote, almost on a weekly basis, it is the Mountain Lions (Cougar) that really freak me out as they can easily jump a 6+ foot fence and could probably take out Luytiy with one bite. The chances of them actually coming into our fenced yard and killing our dogs are, admittedly, pretty slim but, I'd rather be safe than sorry.
We have had Coyote in our yard in the past, and that is kinda crazy, but I honestly feel Ahi or Kona could take them, so Luytiy is probably overkill... But I like that his size is a deterrent alone, and seems to work well. This are is called "Parvo Valley" due to the number of Coyote and feral dogs that roam the Native Pueblo land around here, so keeping them at a safe distance is top priority.
So, that's been my goal - to deter the predators - I want them kept away, I don't want them killed. I see no point in risking a confrontation between our dogs and any wild predators. Also, the Coyote and Feral dogs are drawn to our females when they are in heat, so that adds to the complexity of our situation.
We also have a lot of transients / runaways that call the Mesa (the area west of the Rio Grande Gorge) home, they camp out in remote areas in lawless makeshift cities and then come into town to do their biz or hitch a ride. We happen to live on a (private) road that ends at some hot springs at the base of the Rio Grande Gorge, and so many of the people that live out on the Mesa use our road to get to the hot springs for bathing - so that is why I chose an LGD breed like the CO & CC who are both canine and human aggressive... you know, just to be safe. We basically live on the edge of what many consider to be the last of the "wild west".
----
As far as your game camera , I'm not exactly sure what your options are as far as location is concerned and I know you don't want to attract critters to you home . Have you ever tried using bait ,like a dead rabbit tied by the leg & to a stake or tree. You can usually get some great shots over bait.
---
It's interesting to hear about the different wild life in the different areas.
Down here, our #1 animal killer are snakes. People buy pythons, then when they get to be 6feet, throw them out into the wild. Pythons can survive easily down here, & keep growing to be 10 feet or more. Tons of people leave their dogs outside unsupervised in the yard, & a fence wont really stop a snake. So the pythons get in & grab the small-medium dogs. [ as well as stray / outside cats ]
#2 would be the gators. They like to sneak into swimming pools, small man-made ponds, & the random lakes scattered everywhere. & They LOVE dogs for some reason. Tons of people lose their dogs to gators because the owners decided to walk to the dogs next to a lake.
#3 would be Eagles. Tons & Tons of eagles down here. The Bald eagles love to snatch up small dogs, especially in the more rural areas.
We've got coyote, but they're more like the scavenger types. You very rarely see them, & when you do, they're tiny. I'd say a shikoku is bigger than the coyote we have here.
We do have bears, & last year the black bear attacks were rampant---however, this is soley on the hiking trails. Usually tho, they tend to leave people alone, last year was sort of a "freak" year.
We also have Florida Panthers, [ which is very similar to a Mountain Lion / Cougar ] but they're SO endangered it's really sad. There's only about 100 left in the wild.
It makes me really happy that the local wildlife aren't too bad down here, but the Florida Panther scenario is pretty depressing. ~
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/does-electric-fencing-condition-aggressionfear
First off, I think training a 10 week old puppy on an invisible fence is a BAD idea. When I had mine installed, I was told that 16 weeks was the youngest age that they would even consider training a puppy, and this if it was a larger breed dog. From my two experiences with training, a dog younger than that does not have the attention span to be trained correctly.
Secondly, I know that invisible fence says that in order for them to guarantee the fence, they have to have it installed in both the front and back yard... So be it... But that does NOT mean that your dog needs to be in the front yard. It also does not mean that the fence has to border the property line next to the road. With my fence system, it was in the back yard, bordering the property lines and SEPARATED from the front yard. The front yard was also fenced, but the boundary line was only about 20 feet away from the front of the house. In my instance, the dogs were never let out in the front without a leash... I just felt more comfortable that way.
Now, I agree, that without the proper training and management, invisible fences could very well be a disaster waiting to happen. Please do not get me wrong about that. Invisible fences should be a TOOL to keep your dogs in your yard, but the proper care must be made to ensure that the tool is used correctly and without adverse affects to the dog.
With that said... I am curious to know what the author of this article thinks about electric fences used for cattle, horses, and other livestock... It is a similar principle, where the animal receives an unpleasant sensation if they attempt to cross the boundary. Granted, electric fences are visible, but invisible fences give an audible warning when the boundary is reached before the shock. So both devices have some type of warning, either visible or audible. Do electric fences cause fear or aggression in livestock? If they do, how is it managed?
I hope I did not just open a giant can of worms, but I am actually really curious to hear some responses and discussion regarding this.
I would think that the issue of aggression would be quite different in a prey animal (like a cow or horse) then it would be in a predator, esp. one that is territorial like a dog. I would also think it would very much depend on the individual dog. And I do think it could make a difference between a visible fence and an invisible one....
eta: turns out someone else had the article on their webpage, so here it is:
http://www.kerryblues.info/WDJ/SHOCKING.HTML
and website about e-collars in general, with lots and lots of links (some of which are more academic articles on the subject):
http://www.hollysden.com/say-no-to-shock-collars.htm
We found a spot in the fence where she was able to get through the chicken wire (Saki said "hey! there are little bits of white fur on this wire!") and I replaced it and no new escapes yet.
I have - groan - begun a do-it-yourself fence replacement project, I did one section of fence this past weekend as a learning experience. I plan on doing one post per non-rainy weekend, maybe I will get done with the whole thing this year, maybe not. Its a split-rail fence so I pretty much attach Tomoe to a tie-out stake, remove chicken wire, pull post out of ground, deepen hole from 2 to 3 1/2 feet, put in new post, replace rails, etc. Not a big deal. I will have the fricking shoulders from hell by the end of this summer lol.
Lately Tomoe has been going through one of her phases where she is more interested in mommy, daddy, and the kitty than what's going on in the neighborhood, which is interesting. She's actually - gasp - starting to come to the back door when called!