Of Nihon Ken & E-Collars
Brought on by the discussion I started, Training the Dogs to Beware Snakes.
In summary of the thread, it was discussed that the most effective / common method of teaching Snake Avoidance to dogs was with an E-Collar.
Now, I'm going to talk to several different behaviorists in the area when it comes time to train our future pups snake avoidance, & see if this really is the best method. If it is, then in my mind it is the lesser of Two Evils. [ as Lisa so eloquently put it ] If someone out there can convince me there's a better way, I'll go that route. [ & being of the mindset, if you can do it with Positive Reinforcement instead of Positive Punishment, I'm really looking to get convinced ]
Anyway...if it comes down to it & we go the e-collar route [ & trust me, this would be the ONLY thing this "tool" would be used for ] I'm more worried about the NK reacting adversely then the Dutchie.
From what I understand, in my limited knowledge of the subject, Spitz Breeds don't "do as well" with the E-Collar as other breeds, such as Shepherds, mastiffs, etc. I know that for Shepherd breeds an E-Collar would barely effect them, but I'm not sure how a spitz would react.
Since the NK will have a higher prey drive, & thus, I imagine, a higher desire to snatch up a slithering snake, they're actually the ones I'm more worried about.
So your thoughts on how Shikoku / Kai [ or any of the other related NK, or even Spitz Breeds ] react to an "ecollar" would be very insightful. Do they "shut down?" Are they able to "handle" it?
Thanks guys! ~
In summary of the thread, it was discussed that the most effective / common method of teaching Snake Avoidance to dogs was with an E-Collar.
Now, I'm going to talk to several different behaviorists in the area when it comes time to train our future pups snake avoidance, & see if this really is the best method. If it is, then in my mind it is the lesser of Two Evils. [ as Lisa so eloquently put it ] If someone out there can convince me there's a better way, I'll go that route. [ & being of the mindset, if you can do it with Positive Reinforcement instead of Positive Punishment, I'm really looking to get convinced ]
Anyway...if it comes down to it & we go the e-collar route [ & trust me, this would be the ONLY thing this "tool" would be used for ] I'm more worried about the NK reacting adversely then the Dutchie.
From what I understand, in my limited knowledge of the subject, Spitz Breeds don't "do as well" with the E-Collar as other breeds, such as Shepherds, mastiffs, etc. I know that for Shepherd breeds an E-Collar would barely effect them, but I'm not sure how a spitz would react.
Since the NK will have a higher prey drive, & thus, I imagine, a higher desire to snatch up a slithering snake, they're actually the ones I'm more worried about.
So your thoughts on how Shikoku / Kai [ or any of the other related NK, or even Spitz Breeds ] react to an "ecollar" would be very insightful. Do they "shut down?" Are they able to "handle" it?
Thanks guys! ~
Comments
Really, I LOVE snakes. But because of my love for snakes, I KNOW how dangerous they can be. I'm not worried about the non-venomous species, so much as the Corals, Cottonmouths, & Rattlers we have down here in abundance. [ whose venom is deadly ]
I've heard too many horror stories of people's dogs getting bit down here, even in the Back Yard, & not making it in time to the vets. I've also heard about smaller dogs [ & cats ] getting killed & eaten by the gigantic pythons people have let loose all over here. [ tho in this last scenario, that is the fault of the owners leaving their dogs unattended in the yard ]
My own dad almost stepped on both a coral & cotton mouth [ in the same hike ] & my sis walked right over a Rattler once. They're there, I've seen them, I've caught them, you can even hear them slithering through the brush if you know what to listen for.
This is probably my most "freaked out" subject when it comes to me for dogs. Not vaccinations, not early / spay neuter, not even picking up Parvo / Kennel Cough / etc. Snakes are animals I love & respect, as much as dogs, & knowing what they're capable of makes me very nervous. Especially when there's only so much I can do to avoid it.
So...please don't bash me because I'm asking about e-collars. I wouldn't even think about it if I didn't feel strongly about this...& living where we live, I think it's an import part of our future dog's training. whether it's with e-collars or not...thanks.~
Just a wild guess, but I'm pretty sure my 2 Kishu could handle an e-collar. When they want something bad enough you can yell/scream/stomp whatever and they don't give a hoot. You just can't break them off things without a lot of work, and they snap back from negative experiences really fast.
Haru on the other hand is very sensitive. She doesn't need a strong correction as she's much more attentive to me, and it's rather easy to break her off things with a tug of the leash/yell/clap/command whatever. I think an e-collar would be way too much for her to handle, and it's unnecessary. I'm thinking I could probably snake proof her w/o involving an e-collar, but my Kishu would be much more difficult.
My own dog decided to slice through the trainer's corded lead (1 inch diameter) at the end of the training. She did the recall but didn't detour to the trainer's satisfaction, so they repeated it to make sure. Well, after she was led back to the starting point and her lead was dropped for the recall, she stayed in place to completely bite through the lead. It was only after the lead was cut to 1 ft in length that she moved to me.
If you use it properly and train your dog correctly, you could save their life. Osy, do you have emergency clinics around the area where you would be hiking that have antivenom on site or can access it quickly?
Maymay would be totally crushed that she was hurt. She would probably not associate the collar with me doing it, but she would be very upset. I could also see her peeing nervously from it. She's very confident, but she still has that Kai sensitivity.
I do hike where there are rattlesnakes. We saw a snake on Saturday, and I don't get close enough to tell you what they are. Both dogs were off lead. For Koda, I use the leave it command. Koda has heard leave it on walks since the first day he arrived to my house. This is his best command and I can use it with anything. Then I tell him to walk with me which calls him back to my side.
Maymay is not so bueno with leave it. She can be, but she is just now getting trained with it so I don't trust it in a dire need situation. (Remember Maymay is still learning English....lol) She does however have a perfect recall and will come anytime she thinks you will give her some lovins. She also likes to hug. She gives real hugs. With Maymay I use the recall followed with hugs. She comes running and her full attention is on me because she's going to get loved.
I first used it on Riki and then on Yuki. Both dogs were difficult to handle while using the e-collar and I had to switch back to using positive reinforced training. On the other hand, Anne, Hana, Woody, and Monk all responded really well on the e-collar and usually didn't need to use it again when they reached a point where they responded well to the whistle commands. Now I have seen dogs ruined by the e-collar because of people abusing it.
In bird dog training I use it to correct bad habits such as dogs diverting their back track else where, obedience, multiple bird retrieving, and premature retrieves. Like I said they have their place with certain type of training and certain dogs but with dogs like NK's, where they require a stronger bond between dog and man/women, I dont think it works really well. Especially when a NK figures out that the one they trust is giving them the jolt.
I'm not sure what dog I'd get if I used an e-collar on Shoushuu or Kotomi. Shoushuu could go either way and Kotomi would probably just flip out and whine. However, I don't foresee myself using an e-collar on either Shikoku.
BTW, I went to google this to research into it more...typed in "e-collar spitz breeds" & this was this thread was the first link that popped up. *facepalm* ~
TBH that's happened way too many times for me when trying to search something, Darn NKF, taking over the interwebz.