A few more questions...
...on neutering / spaying.
o1. Neutering involves removing the testicles...right? Well aren't the testicles an import part of the body that the male dog needs to produce hormones?
Maybe I'm thinking of this like the dog was a human...
If a man has his testicles removed...[ indeed, even if a man has his testicles but they don't produce enough testosterone ] this can have a lot of bad effects, [ extreme fatigue, depression, listlessness, etc. ] & can shorten a man's like if he doesn't get on Hormone Replacement Therapy.
So wouldn't removing the testicles of a dog be something pretty bad? Aren't the testicles essential to hormone production?
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o2. I've been reading that spaying a female can cause Incontinence. I'm wondering how common is this? Is there any way to avoid it? Is there a specific type of spay procedure that can be the cause?
I've also read that incontinence may not be immediate, but can happen 6 -7 years down the road too. [ tho I'm not sure I believe this has a direct correlation to spaying ]
Also, similar to the question about neutering...does spaying a female remove an organ that is essential to producing some hormones that the body needs?
Note: I'm not against spaying / neutering...just didn't realize it involved actual removal of an organ / glands until recently. I always thought it was the same as a Vasectomy [ cutting the vas deferens ] or getting your tubes tied lol
Just trying to learn more
Thanks guys! ~
o1. Neutering involves removing the testicles...right? Well aren't the testicles an import part of the body that the male dog needs to produce hormones?
Maybe I'm thinking of this like the dog was a human...
If a man has his testicles removed...[ indeed, even if a man has his testicles but they don't produce enough testosterone ] this can have a lot of bad effects, [ extreme fatigue, depression, listlessness, etc. ] & can shorten a man's like if he doesn't get on Hormone Replacement Therapy.
So wouldn't removing the testicles of a dog be something pretty bad? Aren't the testicles essential to hormone production?
---
o2. I've been reading that spaying a female can cause Incontinence. I'm wondering how common is this? Is there any way to avoid it? Is there a specific type of spay procedure that can be the cause?
I've also read that incontinence may not be immediate, but can happen 6 -7 years down the road too. [ tho I'm not sure I believe this has a direct correlation to spaying ]
Also, similar to the question about neutering...does spaying a female remove an organ that is essential to producing some hormones that the body needs?
Note: I'm not against spaying / neutering...just didn't realize it involved actual removal of an organ / glands until recently. I always thought it was the same as a Vasectomy [ cutting the vas deferens ] or getting your tubes tied lol
Just trying to learn more
Thanks guys! ~
Comments
Spaying is VERY invasive and if the vet is sloppy can have side effects.
With regard to side effects in relation to hormones. Hormones are most important during development, so letting your dog reach physical maturity is probably wise. You can have your vet perform a vasectomy is you don't want the testicles fully removed.
You will find that this is a pretty heated topic that folks can be pretty passionate about.
I am pretty pro spay/neuter. But then again, I wish more people spayed and neutered themselves....
Jessica, I'm pro spay / neuter for non-breeding dogs too, [ ie: unless you're running a reputable breeding kennel, or a studding your dog, speuter them ] I'm just trying to learn more about it
Particularly, it's the hormone aspect of it that kind of scares me lol ~
Since you guys in America have serious issues with stray dogs etc a males vasectomy would be a compromise.
With bitches the situation is more complicated, since their organs become ill more easily, BUT spaying means cutting the tommy open and taking organs out of it, which is a much greater risk, than neutering a male...
The danger of incontinence varies depending on the size of the dog. Small dogs have a risk of about 5%, Huge dogs like Doberman etc have a risk of about 30%!
About a vasectomy of bitches I don't know much, though...
I personally would let my dogs at least reach the age of two (full maturity of mind and body) and then decide. You guys have problems with strays etc and in your shelters dogs get killed, so a vasectomy makes sence to me. Spay/neuter only if there are serious health issues.
But this is only my personal opinion.
yesterday I helped neutering a cat... my first time of holding fresh animal testicles in my hands^^
Everyday a new experience
That said, I'd alter either male or female if they are nonbreeding, but I really do not want to do it before a year of age again. Now that I know more, I think it's a really bad idea. I understand why it is recommended--we really do have too many unwanted animals, and we live in a country where too many people take no responsibility for their animals. I can see why it has become conventional wisdom. But I am a responsible dog owner, and I deeply care about the health of my dogs, and I hate to think early neutering contributed to the bone cancer that killed my GSD.
Here's a link I posted in another thread about neutering. It breaks down the pros and cons pretty well:
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
That was, what I wanted to say.
The risk of a male dog to get prostate cancer is really low. So I would not neuter my male dog. I am thinking of a vasectomy right now, since my Shikoku will be a girl and it makes things a lot safer if I don't have to watch out all the time while she is in heat. (I'm not decided yet, since my male Shiba has a heart-issue and I have to discuss with my vet whether or not an operation is too dangerous for him.)
The risk of Pyometra etc with female dogs is much higher, so the case is indeed different with them. BUT - as I said before - the risk of the operation is higher as well, so I would really let it depend on the individual bitch. If she has no problems at all I would not spay her young. At the age of 6 or 7 when the risk of pyometra grows higher I might do it. Especially since older dogs tend to have more problems with operations, so it would be better to have an op then than when she turns really old... In the first few years only if she really has problems while or after the heat.
I really do have a little problem with manipulating nature. I would not want to get spayed myself even though a pyometra could kill me and so I don't feel comfortable with putting my dog under the knife if there are no real issues with her...
Because if you only argue with "she has a risk of becoming sick" you (or your girlfriends/wifes) would have to get spayed as well and remove your breasts etc, because you "have a risk of becoming sick" too...
So I would spay my bitches only if they as individuals have a high risk of becoming sick or when they get older and the overall risk of ops is going to rise a lot in the following years. BUT I would like to keep the option of breeding open, so with me the case might be different than with some of you.
And I would like to point out, that only because I don't feel comfortable with spaying/neutering choiceless animals without medical indication, that doesn't mean I don't accept people doing that!
It is YOUR animal and YOU have to live with it, so YOU know best, what suits YOUR personal (and emotional) situation, so I would not dare to judge that! :-)
What is pyometra?
In its simplest terms, pyometra is an infection in the uterus. However, most cases of pyometra are much more difficult to manage than a routine infection.
Infection in the lining of the uterus is established as a result of hormonal changes. Following estrus (“heat”), progesterone levels remain elevated for 8-10 weeks and thicken the lining of the uterus in preparation for pregnancy. If pregnancy does not occur for several estrus cycles, the lining continues to increase in thickness until cysts form within it. The thickened, cystic lining secretes fluids that create an ideal environment in which bacteria can grow. Additionally, high progesterone levels inhibit the ability of the muscles in the wall of the uterus to contract.
Are there other situations that cause the changes in the uterus?
Yes. The use of progesterone-based drugs can do this. In addition, estrogen will increase the effects of progesterone on the uterus. Drugs containing both hormones are used to treat certain conditions of the reproductive system.
How do bacteria get into the uterus?
The cervix is the gateway to the uterus. It remains tightly closed except during estrus. When it is open, bacteria that are normally found in the vagina can enter the uterus rather easily. If the uterus is normal, the environment is adverse to bacterial survival; however, when the uterine wall is thickened and cystic, perfect conditions exist for bacterial growth. In addition, when these abnormal conditions exist, the muscles of the uterus cannot contract properly. This means that bacteria that enter the uterus cannot be expelled.
When does it occur?
Pyometra may occur in young to middle-aged dogs; however, it is most common in older dogs. After many years of estrus cycles without pregnancy, the uterine wall undergoes the changes that promote this disease.
The typical time for pyometra to occur is about 1-2 months following estrus.
What are the clinical signs of a dog with pyometra?
The clinical signs depend on whether or not the cervix is open. If it is open, pus will drain from the uterus through the vagina to the outside. It is often noted on the skin or hair under the tail or on bedding and furniture where the dog has laid. Fever, lethargy, anorexia, and depression may or may not be present.
If the cervix is closed, pus that forms is not able to drain to the outside. It collects in the uterus causing distention of the abdomen. The bacteria release toxins which are absorbed into circulation These dogs often become severely ill very rapidly. They are anorectic, very listless, and very depressed. Vomiting or diarrhea may be present.
Toxins from the bacteria affect the kidney’s ability to retain fluid. Increased urine production occurs, and the dog drinks an excess of water. This occurs in both open- and closed-cervix pyometra.
How is it diagnosed?
Dogs that are seen early in the disease may have a slight vaginal discharge and show no other signs of illness. However, most dogs with pyometra are not seen until later in the illness. A very ill female dog that is drinking an increased amount of water and has not been spayed is always suspected of having pyometra. This is especially true if there is a vaginal discharge or an enlarged abdomen.
Dogs with pyometra have a marked elevation of the white blood cell count and often have an elevation of globulins (a type of protein produced by the immune system) in the blood. The specific gravity of the urine is very low due to the toxic effects of the bacteria on the kidneys. However, all of these abnormalities may be present in any dog with a major bacterial infection.
If the cervix is closed, radiographs (x-rays) of the abdomen will often identify the enlarged uterus. If the cervix is open, there will often be such minimal uterine enlargement that the radiograph will not be conclusive. An ultrasound examination can also be helpful in identifying an enlarged uterus and differentiating that from a normal pregnancy.
How is it treated?
The preferred treatment is to surgically remove the uterus and ovaries. This is called an ovariohysterectomy (“spay”). Dogs diagnosed in the early stage of the disease are very good surgical candidates. The surgery is only slightly more complicated than a routine spay. However, most dogs are diagnosed when they are quite ill so the surgery is not as routine as the same surgery in a healthy dog. Intravenous fluids are often needed before and after surgery. Antibiotics are given for 1-2 weeks.
My dog is a valuable breeding bitch. Can anything else be done other than surgery?
There is a medical approach to treating pyometra. Prostaglandins are a group of hormones that reduce the blood level of progesterone, relax and open the cervix, and contract the uterus to expel bacteria and pus. They can be used successfully to treat this disease, but they are not always successful and they have some important limitations.
1. They cause side-effects of restlessness, panting, vomiting, defecation, salivation, and abdominal pain. The side-effects occur within about 15 minutes of an injection and last for a few hours. They become progressively milder with each successive treatment and may be lessened by walking the dog for about 30 minutes following an injection.
2. There is no clinical improvement for about 48 hours so dogs that are severely ill are poor candidates.
3. Because they contract the uterus, it is possible for the uterus to rupture and spill infection into the abdominal cavity. This is most likely to happen when the cervix is closed.
There are some important statistics that you should know about this form of treatment:
1. The success rate for treating open-cervix pyometra is 75-90%.
2. The success rate for treating closed-cervix pyometra is 25-40%.
3. The rate of recurrence of the disease is 50-75%.
4. The chances of subsequent successful breeding is 50-75%.
What happens if neither of the above treatments are given?
The chance of successful treatment without surgery or prostaglandin treatment is extremely low. If treatment is not performed quickly, the toxic effects from the bacteria will be fatal. If the cervix is closed, it is also possible for the uterus to rupture, spilling the infection into the abdominal cavity. This will also be fatal..
What is the prostate?
The prostate (commonly mispronounced as "prostrate") is a gland located near the neck of the urinary bladder of male dogs. The urethra passes through it shortly after leaving the bladder. The purpose of the prostate is to produce some of the fluids found in normal canine semen.
What are the signs of prostatic disease?
Enlargement of the gland is common with most prostatic diseases. Since the urethra passes through it, enlargement of the prostate compresses the urethra, and urination becomes difficult. Complete urethral obstruction only rarely occurs, but an affected dog will spend quite a bit of time urinating and produces a stream of urine with a small diameter. The colon, located just above the prostate, is sometimes compressed by an enlarged prostate. This makes defecation difficult. In summary, a dog with prostatic enlargement often has a history of straining to urinate and/or defecate.
In addition, some dogs with prostatic disease will have blood in the urine. Bacterial infection of the prostate is sometimes, but not always, involved with production of the bloody urine.
What are the diseases that cause the prostate to enlarge?
There are at least seven diseases affecting the prostate.
1. Benign prostatic hyperplasia. This is a non-cancerous enlargement of the gland. It is associated with the hormone testosterone and is the most common disease of the prostate.
2. Squamous metaplasia. This is a non-cancerous enlargement of the gland caused by excess amounts of estrogen. An estrogen-producing tumor called a Sertoli cell tumor is usually responsible.
3. Cystic hyperplasia. This condition is usually secondary to benign prostatic hyperplasia or squamous metaplasia. It is caused by obstruction of the ducts that carry prostatic secretions to the urethra. Multiple, fluid-filled cavities result.
4. Paraprostatic cysts. These are fluid-filled cysts that develop adjacent to the prostate when abnormal tissue remains from embryonic development before the puppy was born. The cysts begin to develop shortly after birth but may not cause problems or be detected until the dog is several years old.
5. Bacterial infection. Bacteria may enter and infect the prostate by going up the urethra or by coming down the urethra from an infection in the urinary bladder. It is usually associated with a preexisting abnormality of the prostate, such as benign prostatic hyperplasia.
6. Prostatic abscess. This is a progressive form of a bacterial infection. If the ducts that drain the prostate become obstructed, bacteria are trapped in the prostate and form a walled-off site of infection known as an abscess.
7. Prostatic cancer. This form is much less common than all of the others. It may be associated with hormones from the testicles, adrenal glands, or pituitary glands or it may occur without any association with hormones.
How are these diagnosed?
The first step in diagnosis is to determine if the prostate is enlarged. This is done by feeling its size either through the abdominal wall or through the rectal wall. It may be confirmed by radiographs (x-rays) or an ultrasound examination.
Because there are so many diseases of the prostate, it is necessary to perform several tests to tell them apart. These tests include cultures of the dog's urine, a microscopic examination of the cells in the urine, and a microscopic examination of the cells in prostatic fluid or in the prostate itself. Samples of prostatic fluid are recovered by passing a urethral catheter to the level of the prostate and massaging the prostate to "milk" fluid out of it. Samples of prostatic cells are obtained by aspiration or biopsy via a needle that is either passed through the body wall or passed through the rectal wall. If the prostate is greatly enlarged, it can be aspirated or biopsied through the body wall; otherwise, an approach through the rectal wall is necessary. An aspiration sample is taken through a very small bore needle and only recovers a few cells. Sometimes this is adequate for analysis; other times it is not. A needle biopsy sample is obtained through a large bore needle that is passed into the prostate by ultrasound guidance. A biopsy sample recovers a piece of tissue that permits a pathologist to make a more accurate diagnosis.
How are they treated?
1. Diseases involving primary or secondary bacterial infections are treated with aggressive antibiotic therapy. Because it is difficult to get many antibiotics into the prostate, treatment for several weeks will probably be necessary. Since most of the infections are secondary to another disease, treating the infection is only part of the overall treatment.
2. Diseases associated with excessive hormone levels include benign prostatic hyperplasia, cystic metaplasia, and cystic hyperplasia. Since testosterone and estrogen are both formed in the testicles, castration is generally very effective for all of these. The prostate will generally be normal or smaller than normal in size within one month after castration.
3. Paraprostatic cysts and prostatic abscesses require major abdominal surgery to drain and remove.
4. Prostatic cancer does not respond well to any currently used form of treatment. If it is associated with an excess of a hormone, castration may be beneficial; however, most are not and metastasize rather easily to other parts of the body. The prognosis for these is usually poor.
BTW you can't give a female a vaisectomy. I did have a male cat who had one and he never sprayed or had the urge. He was a really good cat.
The procedure was a laser that burnt them together. It was actually funny. He was a white cat and had two red dots on each testicle. It looked like two eyes staring at you until it healed. Everytime he walked away boom they watched me.
And I agree, having an intact animal that is never allowed to breed is kind of cruel... Having the urge to mate and never being allowed to must be some kind of frustrating...
However, I can see the point about later spay/neuter. With smaller breeds, I am sure 6-8 months is a good age to speuter. But with larger breeds, I personally think it would be better to wait until closer to 12 months, if not longer for giant breeds. Having hormones during the growth periods is important AS LONG AS YOU ARE A RESPONSIBLE OWNER!!!! And I take the responsible owner part seriously... We have all seen the consequences of the UFP... Be it your dog's UFP or the stray down at the park's UFP. If you are not 150% committed to keeping your non-breeding dog (or even breeding dog) from breeding accidentally, SPEUTER them ASAP.
Still, the really early speutering bothers me....
If I was getting a female, I know I'd have less patience with waiting for the later speuter, because my god, why would anyone want to go through having a female dog in season if they didn't have to? It's awful! I'd hate to have to wait even through one before I spayed her. It makes my decision a little easier knowing I'm getting a male. (I do, however, still need to convince my breeder of the wisdom of waiting).
Because thats an important state of adolescence...?
"I've seen males who become obsessed to the point of not doing anything other than trying to mount everything in sight."
There is a great difference between an intact dog and a hypersexual intact dog. A male that is hypersexual is sick and neutering would be necessary, so this is neutering with "medical indication" to me...
And btw... I know a lot of neutered males that hump everything they can - and some females do that too.
So... erm... My male dog is intact and he has no problems with relaxing on walks. His dog-friends are female and he can have a lot of fun playing with them without trying to hump them... So he is either the big exception or being intact is not bonded to sexual frustration...
Why shelters speuter every dog they get into their shelters is pretty clear and right. Shelters do have my full encouragement for doing so, especially in countries where there are problems with strays. If I were a vet I would aid shelters by doing free speuters/vasectomies!
But this is a different topic, than "private" dog-keeping, because all members of the forum are well aware of their responsibilities (at least I hope so...).
So you can't do vasctomies with bitches? Only not vasectomies or no such op at all? Im wondering because human females can have sterilization as well, so I thought that would be possible with canine females as well... (But if I had my dog on the op-table anyways I'd rather get her spayed, so the risk of pyometra would be over.)
Now.. Someone said before, this is a pretty emotional topic to many people and this is right. I don't want to cause any struggles...
The living conditions in Germany are really different from the ones in America. We have NO strays and our shelters do NOT kill dogs (because it is not necessary). The majority of dog-owners here keeps their dogs intact, because there's just no reason for speuter. If you have a bitch in heat you keep her on leash and keep away from areas where many dogs run free and that's it. Because so many dogs are kept intact especially neutered males tend to have serious problems, because many males hump or beat them and some females beat them as well because of their strange scent. I know a lot of intact dogs and none of them is sexually frustrated or anything. Some friends keep intact females and males together (without the goal of breeding) and it works perfectly fine.
Bitches do only have the urge to mate while being in heat anyways and males do normally (if they don't have serious problems with their testicles and the hormones!) only have the urge to mate if they smell a bitch in heat.
In the U.S. - at least I was told so - many dogs are early speutered, so the normal social-structure in the "dog-community" is different. Dogs that get along here great might have problems in your country and vice versa, so if a speuter causes or keeps stress depends a lot on the social structure.
My male will keep his testicles to keep his "male-scent", because otherwise he would be heavily stressed on every walk by the reactions of the other dogs. And to keep his hormones balanced.
I love him exactly the way he is and I don't want him to change at all. That's the way he was born and nature made him and I take him the way he is.
If people really wanted to control the dog population they would outlaw puppy mills and pups sold in pet stores.
Spueter is big business for vets et al.
Re: vasectomies.....could be a language issue here. Vasectomy is the word for the male operation only. Females are spayed....hmmm....I believe they remove the uterus and the ovaries? I think the equivelent for humans would be a hysterectomy. ( but you know that obviously....I was kind of thinking out loud there. That's why when they say it's "minor" surgery for females, well, that's simply not true. It's major, invasive surgery. ) When I think about it more, and think about how hormones would then not be produced, I can see why this would cause some behavioral differences in bitches that have been speutered, and can see why it might cause more aggression.... I looked it up and see that tubal ligation (which might be closest to a vasectomy? But still is more invasive) is also possible but I don't know if anyone does that....But it's maybe that surgery you're thinking of in terms of female sterilization?
It seems such an obvious point that early speutering would cause behavioral and health differences (esp. if dogs don't get the hormones of adolescence), so I'm kind of surprised that it's not more of a discussion about it in terms of dog health....I mean in the US we really do seem to just take it for granted that it is fine to do it very early. I never question it myself until very very recently....
BTW my female humps my male and she was spayed at 5 months old. Not by me, she's a rescue. Her previous owners did it.