Which NK is the worst with same sex aggression?
Hi all.
A friend of mine suggested I bought a shiba with my kais instead of the AA I once wanted. But I've heard of some who were very same sex aggressive, whereas my friend says the opposite, and anyways, I don't think I need more dogs than the 2 kai I'm hoping to get and the GSD I already have ;o) haha
So I got curious - what is your opinion? Which of the Nihon Ken is worst (and best) with same sex aggression?
A friend of mine suggested I bought a shiba with my kais instead of the AA I once wanted. But I've heard of some who were very same sex aggressive, whereas my friend says the opposite, and anyways, I don't think I need more dogs than the 2 kai I'm hoping to get and the GSD I already have ;o) haha
So I got curious - what is your opinion? Which of the Nihon Ken is worst (and best) with same sex aggression?
Comments
I would have once said that Kais were good with all sexes. It may be my female's isolation before, she was tied up outside for about a year before the rescue group got her. I would never place a female in the house with her now.
My male came from good lines, a good breeder, and into a healthy environment where he was extremely well socialized from 8 weeks to well now. He would do great with anyone male or female.
We actually discussed this topic at length in this thread: http://www.nihonken.org/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5326
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Females are allowed to do nearly everything. Only if someone gets the "great" idea to feed them next to each other he'll snap, if it's not one of his best friends.
This is the same with neutered males with "girl-smell".
With intact males or neutered with "boy-smell" he'll get into trouble. If the other male is self-confident and doesn't care much about the small ones actions, they can put up a "you don't annoy me, I don't annoy you"-contract and ignore each other.
Many Shiba-males from the German forum are pretty similar. Some more aggressive, some less, but nearly all divide between male and female.
Thanks, that was very enlightening
Tara >>
Yeah Maymay might be biased because of the way she was treated. Koda sounds really wonderful. I'll look at my dog's behavior and take it from there...
It's totally anecdotal and I have no numbers to back it up, but from what I've seen, and most any NK breeder over here would probably say, there's a lot of male/male aggression. I haven't see it to be more or less in any of the Japanese breeds.
It's kind of hard to really say how much of it could be avoided by socialization as pups. As everyone knows most NK are not kept as companion dogs in the western sense of the word. Most are kept outdoors, chained or kenneled, and the majority are not socialized. There's a lot of emphasis on preserving the NK as it is, and too much tinkering is often seen as a negative thing. The way the breed temperament standard is written the males have to show vigor and strength in the ring, and the way that's often interpreted is that they have to be aggressive toward other dogs in the ring. Of course there's a balance to that, barking, lunging and getting out of control are seen as signs of weakness or instability.
I've seen enough NK to know that many, especially females, are okay with other dogs, but I'd have to say that most of the males I've seen are aggressive toward other intact males. I've never met a non intact male or female NK, so I have no idea if that changes anything.
Yeah I read the thread that Brad linked to...
I have lots of AA friends that tell me they are same sex aggressive and for me it seems quite astonishing that they can all be wrong about the reason for all the conflicts. But I don't have any experience, so I'm not going to give an opinion on this, I'm only listening... ;o)
My GSD can be a bit wary of other female dogs at her own age, but she likes male dogs, and younger and older bitches. Maybe this has to do with the fact that she feels that a hieraki needs to be established when they're the same age, whereas she submits to an older bitch and immeditely feels that she's the boss, when she encounters a younger bitch... My knowledge of this may be outdated, so I could be wrong.
Last night I had her at the dog park and someone had a small dog on the big dog side, which is not something I condone or would do myself, but it is what it is. Tomoe was paying attention to this dog and I stayed near them, thinking if the little dog got eaten, it was not going to be MY dog that did it. I really only had to tell her "Gentle!" and she backed off and did more lowering her chest to the ground to invite play from the small dog. She did this while glancing back at me a couple of times, so I feel pretty confident she was actually accepting my direction to calm down and be less aggressive in her play.
Anyway this is more evidence for me that while they make 'em beautiful over there, they also make 'em crazy the way they raise them.
>> It is not that they are wrong, their AA might be same-sex aggressive, or dog aggressive in general. This doesn't mean the breed as a whole is predisposed to be same-sex aggressive. You have to look at all the factors: Do you friends dogs live in kennels? Were they socialized with same-sex same-breed dogs during their socialization window? Did their dogs comes from a reputable breeder? Do these friends dogs share similar pedigrees? What do your fiends consider "aggression"? When they witness these same-sex aggressive displays are there other valued resources around which they may be guarding? Can they quantify the data - like they have had issues with this # of males dogs vs. this # of female dogs? Are the same-sex dogs they have issues with intact? Is their AA intact? Were they socialized with intact and altered adult and adolescent dogs?
My point is, unless someone can show some results of real quantified data on the subject, that's not derived from anecdotes, breed-hype, or hearsay, it's unjust and over-generalizing to say any one NK breed is predisposed to same-sex aggression when compared to the others.
What one might be able to say is that, for example, breed "x" require more socialization than other breeds due to their defensive nature and therefore, if not socialized or managed properly, can show more aggressive response, which, based on anecdotal evidence, in some cases can appear to be gender-triggered.
Also, if a breeder is telling you that their dogs are same-sex aggressive, then I would expect dogs from that kennel to be that way - but that doesn't mean the whole breed is that way.
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To Shigs' point (which is an interesting one)...
The way the breed temperament standard is written the males have to show vigor and strength in the ring, and the way that's often interpreted is that they have to be aggressive toward other dogs in the ring.
>> To me, this could almost be an example of breeders breeding for same-sex aggression in males - but - where that breaks down for me is that the majority of dogs in the show ring are males and so that would skew the perspective and make it appear that breed "x" was more aggressive to males since during showing they show aggressiveness in the ring - but how do we know they are only aggressive toward males? They could be just as aggressive toward females but it goes un-tested due to the standard being written specifically for males to show "vigor and strength in the ring".
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They mean that the AAs are born same sex aggressive, and will always be that way. I have only met their dogs on occasional visits so for me to make an opinion for myself I believe I'd have to live with the dogs... The breeders and owner who has told me this, are a mix of people and the dogs are both in kennels and some live inside with the family. The bloodline for most of the danish AA is Redwitch kennel from UK and some have dogs from Sondaisa lines (US) and others from Norway or Sweden, so it's not really possible for me to conclude any pattern here.
I myself have always believed that with the correct training, you can acchive almost anything with your dog, but as far as altering instincts, it's not easy, if even possible. But again, I find it hard to believe, that AA in general is born same sex aggressive, but this is what's commonly believed here in my country. Changes are not made by reasoning, but by time, unfortunately...
Maybe a lot of the problem lies in the fact, that a lot of people here expect the dogs to be same sex aggressive and avoid the "dangerous" situations with the pups, that could in fact have prevented the problem..? Maybe?
I don't know enough on this area, but would like to learn more, which is why I came to this forum
In the open on walks, she is fine because her sights are set on what she is doing and not the other dog. I have successfully walked her with both dogs she had conflicts with afterwards on leash using treats to get them closer together. She was fine. The Shiba was a little bitchy but Maymay followed my lead.
She does not handle male intact dogs humping her though, and I can't blaim her. She has an extremely high prey drive and an extremely high defensive drive. Plus she is a little bit of a resource guarder. All in all, she's a good dog, but I have to manage her experiences carefully.
Koda's just a really really patient dog. He doesn't care about anything and only barks and growls at big hairy dogs. He went for a Malamute, Chewy, last night. He is such an ass to big dogs!
I don't get into breed hype, and don't like making generalizations, but when someone asks me I also don't want to say that there can't be aggressive Kais. There can, but I kind've think that they are the minority in the breed as long as they are socialized and taught manners young.
I totally agree with you.
The reason I even started this discussion is, that I've never heard anything else. Until I read what you all say and some of the litterature that you have linked to me, I thought same sex aggression was a fact because of how the danish people talk about it. I'm no expert myself, so I'll have to assess what is told to me, and what I read and base a new opinion I guess. I don't want to go along with breed hype either, I just didn't know it was hype ;o) My god I have a lot to learn. Thank god I have you guys to help me when I get my kai ken! ;o)
What I am is a born skeptic, I have seen too many examples of things that "were" or "are" that suddenly changed to "maybes" or "are nots". Look at most of science, many of the things that were taught to me while I was in school are now considered (or have been proven) wrong. So, it is in my nature to question something that someone tells me as a "hard fact", especially when there are examples out there that go against that "hard fact". That is where my personal feelings on this subject come from. And I openly admit that I may be wrong.
You wrote...
...but as far as altering instincts, it's not easy, if even possible.
>> This is really where the core of this discussion is for me. Your comment implies that your friends have told you that same-sex aggression is instinctual in the AA breed. My question there would be: why? Why would same-sex aggression be instinctual in the AA breed? What value does same sex-aggression add to the breed as a whole - from a natural selection or artificial selection perspective?
You also wrote...
Maybe a lot of the problem lies in the fact, that a lot of people here expect the dogs to be same sex aggressive and avoid the "dangerous" situations with the pups, that could in fact have prevented the problem..? Maybe?
>> This hits the nail on the head, IMHO. This is why I posted that link and made sure to mention socialization so much in my past posts (Tara mentioned it too). Perhaps it could be called the "same-sex aggression syndrome" in people. Here is an example, starting from the beginning... If you take that example, and then consider that their will probably be a time where Person A, B or C has their dog in a situation where they show aggression toward another same-sex dog (due to not being socialized with them - out of fear of confrontation), which reinforces the initial thoughts that Person A had. You can see how a pattern can quickly emerge - the "same-sex aggression syndrome" pattern.
I've actually noticed this type of thought pattern happens in many many different parts of dogdom - like the "raw meat makes your dog aggressive" concept, and the "intact dogs are more aggressive" mantras. There are others, I just can't think of them now... Point is, when you deconstruct these thoughts / anecdotes / wives tales you start to see that they break down at their core, and with a bit of research you start to read reports about people/dogs who didn't (or do not) fit the "model" that the thoughts / anecdotes / wives tales produce - and if there are examples that do not fit the model, then how can the model me accurate?
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Anyway, I do believe that a lot of what people say about same sex aggression is a result of poor socialization, not something inherent in the breed. I also know that when I was searching for an AA breeder, I eliminated several when I saw their dogs behave aggressively in the show ring. (Sondaisa was one of those). It may be that I could get a puppy from one of these aggressive dogs and socialize it well and have a great puppy, but I decided not to take a chance.
Also, I do think Shibas are probably generally more...well, to use Dave's term, more punkass than a lot of other dogs! So I figure they're generally more trouble. My male Shiba is equal opportunity in his dislike of other dogs--though he's ok with big docile dogs. My female Shiba likes big male dogs, and hasn't been around enough females for me to know, but I suspect she wouldn't care much.
Your example is quite accurate and describes what I believe has happened here in Denmark. All the owners I have met, have all warned me not to get 2 AA/JA/shiba of the same sex. They really truly believe the same sex aggression is hard fact! And I know for a fact, that the breed representative is telling this to potential new owners and others interested. So it's really an "evil" cycle! No one will have the opportunity to make up their own minds, unless they have that "born skeptic" gene like you.
You wrote:
Why would same-sex aggression be instinctual in the AA breed?
I have no idea, it doesn't seem logical, for them to be born with this. I'd rather believe that it comes from poor socialization or resource guarding, as you previously mentioned. I can only conclude, that danish dog people are prone to believing what they're told, instead of trying their best themselves and make conclusions from their own experiences...
I certainly plan to socialize my future pups with an open mind, and we'll see how it goes!
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1 - The belief in same-sex aggression in a breed, IMHO, probably falls under the Type 1 error and therefore fits with the equation presented in the video. It feels safer to most people to believe that the pattern is real (AA breeds is same-sex aggressive) than to take the risk and believe it is not real (since that could result in a dog fight).
2 - I like his point about baseball batters and control, I think we can apply that concept to this discussion as well. One of the things that makes dog behavior so interesting to all of us is the fact that none of us really know. We don't know what dogs are thinking, so that makes training and studying behavior very interesting as we are trying to peer into the "black box" (the dog). So, based on that thought, I guess all of us feel, at some level, like we don't have any real control over our dogs behavior... and so THAT is why people subscribe so easily to the various pattern-based beliefs in dogdom. (!!!) If this thought is true, that really helps us understand why the Alpha/Dominance thing is so easily accepted by people - because it defines a pattern that we can then use to understand our dog's behavior - but that pattern is a Type 1 error.
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Brad pointed out some interesting things about Type 1 errors and human interpretation of dog behavior. I agree completely with both of his points. I think there are also some other examples of Type 2 errors that we commonly make with our dogs. For example, a lot of people will stand by while their snarling dog is giving all the warning signs in the world that they are going to bite and say "he's friendly, he's never hurt anybody before." FALSE! He is not friendly. He is showing a pattern of behavior that should be recognized as an indicator of a future bite event. I think it falls in line with the point about control. When we don't feel control, we tend to look to patterns (or lack of patterns) for help in understanding how to behave or interpret a situation.
but I though your examples were substantial and can trigger self-reflection.
And I admit I also got distracted into thinking of a totally unrelated (to dogs) subject, which is how we look for patterns and how that relates to other human behavior, such as superstition, faith, etc. Of course many manifestations of these things might be errors, but that does not make them less compelling for individuals. Following that line of thought quite distracted me, of course
I believe that the same sex aggression is comparable to type 1 error, though the one he suggested with the rustling (wind or predator) was one, where I'd be happy to make a type 1 error. That would keep me safe and there'd be no risk, other than me believing something that may not be real. With the dogs, I'd want to stay in the middle (only believing what's real), not making mistakes to either side. It's a difficult balance!
Be careful to not make a type II error...
Same-Sex-Aggression (I'll cut it to ssa, alright?) indeed does make sense to some point.
Of course not in a pack, since the dogs have to get along with each other, but towards stranger dogs this is the most logical behaviour of all.
A stranger dog of the opposite sex is a potential mating partner - aggression do not make sense.
A stranger dog of the same sex is a competitor concerning food, good places, females etc, so ssa is the most natural, most necessary, most reasonable form of aggression...
If you follow this line of arguments male-male-aggressions make more sense, than female-female-aggressions, since males can successfully mate with more than one female (so another female is not at all costs a thread to another female).
Ssa INSIDE a pack does indeed not make any sense. Breeders with more than a pair of dogs would get in trouble if that was a fact... And packs of wolves or wild dogs would starve if they'd kill their hunting partners. LOL
Remember that stranger dogs getting along well (like in dog-parks etc) is really unnatural and due to really good socialization. Especially with more "primitive" breeds like the NK, that have not such "degenerated" social skills like Labs or Golden Retrievers...
This does NOT mean, that I think ssa is an unalterable fact. Socialisation plays a big role, but I think you have to put much much efforts in socialising primitive breeds with the same sex, to prevent them from developing a (natural) suspiciousness concerning the same sex.
But adding a pup of the same sex to another dog should be possible as well, since when the pup hits maturity it already belongs to the pack...
Killing or disposing competitors is one of the basic principles of evolution.
Your argument is based on the assumption that all dogs of the same sex view resources equally and also don't view dogs of the opposite sex as competitors for those resources. I think both of those assumptions are false.
I've observed more "aggression" (by aggression, I mean unecessarily intense resource guarding) between my female and young puppy than I have with my two mails. The fact is, every dog values a particular resource differently be it the opportunity to breed (for males or females), a favorite tennis ball, food, their human, etc. To some dogs those things are worth defending or "fighting" for, to others they are not. This predisposition to fighting for resources doesn't seem to be in any way tied to the sex of another dog, but to the resource being guarded and the value it has to the individual dog.
Could not have said it better myself! ;o)
I think sometimes we tend to forget that all dogs are individual and have their own personality. We tend to lump them all together, and say that the akitas are this way and the shibas are that way an so on. We don't do that about people (or at least I don't) and there's no reason to do so with the dogs either! They have their personal preferences, which determines what they will guard and will not. So saying that all AA or all males are same sex aggressive is kind of similar to saying that all danish men are violent (fx). They are not, and we know that. Some may be, but that's a product of their unbringing and their temperament/genes. Why are we afraid/unwilling to apply this to dogs also?