I must ask...

kyralynkyralyn
edited August 2010 in Shikoku Ken (四国犬)
I know how the Shikoku has a high prey drive and will go after and wild critter they see, but...
If the shikoku takes off after it, will the dog never come back?

I want a shikoku that can be off the leash when I take it to swimming holes or anywhere else outdoors. (not in places where there are cars and traffic, more like out away from all that) But i'm afraid if a critter is spotted, the shikoku will be gone for ever.
Or spend a days worth of searching and hollering. LOL
So will they take off and not listen to you and not come back?
Someone tell me :) Thanks!
P.S I plan on living in Central Texas, there are wild birds and rabbits and squirrels and Javelina's (wild boars) from what I know.
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Comments

  • JessicaRabbitJessicaRabbit
    edited November -1
    There is a very distinct possibility that you would never see the dog again. Even with the best of training there is always the chance that even with the best training that instinct will override discipline. There is also the chance that the dog will be shot by a hunter or a park ranger thinking it is a coyote. Or that someone will just take the dog.

    Anytime you let a dog, especially a primitive one like Shikoku, off leash you are taking a risk. You simply have to decide if it is a risk worth taking.
  • EdgewoodEdgewood
    edited November -1
    I personally wouldn't, but mainly because I would worry that you would not get them back soon and they might get hurt. And I have 2 very obedient Shikoku who are well trained (and go off lead in the obedience ring -- at least the older one...the younger one is still in training).

    That being said, I do know that Peggy at O'Ikon does let her dogs off lead in the woods. She even has some you tube clips on it. And I believe that when Heidi lived out in the country with Rakka, she also let her off lead. But I personally would worry, especially in very wooded areas. I might be more tempted in open flatland where you could see the dog.

    That being said, Kuma has gotten loose a few times on our farm and he has come back when called, though usually not immediately (one time 5 minutes, the other time about 20 minutes of following him around as he hunted ground hogs/their holes).
  • kyralynkyralyn
    edited November -1
    Oh okay.
    Texas is pretty flat, with some hills, and some trees, but nothing like mountain terrains and thick woodlands and such.
    So I imagine they'll be safe :) as long as they are wearing colorful collars or such so no one mistakes them for coyotes. Theres a lot of them in Texas too.
  • the_november_rainthe_november_rain
    edited August 2010
    Once when Inu was 5 months I took let him outside to go potty in the morning and he escaped through the fence. Plus for some reason he didn't have his collar/tags on. I hollered for my husband to help him bring him back , but he was gone. It was about 5 in the morning so the sun was just coming up, we got in the car and started driving around the neighborhood and back roads for 45 minutes. There is a lot of dense woods and land around, so it was going to be near impossible to find him on car or on foot. We eventually went back home. I called the neighbors to have them on the look out. But after that it was just a waiting game. My husband said he might come back home. It is a very awful experience to lose your dog. My biggest worry was that someone would take him and keep him, because he is a very attractive dog. Or take him to the vet and pump him up with more rabies/vaccination shots. Around 9 am I looked out the window and he was digging in the garden. I was very happy and he was very happy to see me. But it was a very nerve racking/emotional experience.

    Ever since then he has refused to poo in his 3+ acre yard and has to be walked every morning and night to potty. He would rather hold it for 24+ hr then go in his yard.

    Also he has escaped to the neighbors property that has 3 horses. He completely ignored me and started running after/barking at the horses. Then he found some horse poo and started running with it in his mouth. ICK! Then he was off sniffing all the wild plants. All the while I am pleading. Eventually I had to call the neighbor to help me catch him.

    Bottomline if Inu is off leash outside the yard there are 300 more interesting things than I or his favorite treat.

    If you must put'em off leash then invest in GPS tracking collar. But even then someone could steal him/her- that is my biggest worry/concern.
  • kyralynkyralyn
    edited November -1
    Oh i'm sorry about that! I would be worried sick too! But thats a bummer that they do that :(
    and yeah, thieves these days. Look! A beautiful dog! I could make some money off of this! *steals*
    Plus its so bad because they are so friendly to people, anyone could take them...
    I really want a shikoku, but I want dogs that will go places with me without needing to be on a leash...damn
    Plus even with a collar, someone would mistake them for a coyote and shoot em. Good ol Texas...
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    edited August 2010
    Hunters hunt with with Shikoku off-lead in Japan, so it must be possible... It's a matter of commitment - as in training commitment on the owners part. You just need to be honest with yourself and your commitment and remember, not being honest with one's self and one's training abilities/time could potentially end with a dead Shikoku.

    ETA - Ending with a dead Shikoku is a very real possibility for seasoned hunters too, hunters who have invested 1000s of training hours in their dog. In that case its a matter of risk-return trade-off.

    ----
  • EdgewoodEdgewood
    edited November -1
    Well, Jessika just reminded me...as I have the full sister to her Inu (my Sachi).

    Sachi is a expert digger (:-(. And has dug out of the yard at least 3-4 times. Luckily, unlike her brother, she doesn't really wander off at all and comes when I call her. She doesn't show much interest in my horses either, but then she has seen them since she was 8 weeks old (she was born Jan 2010). So far I have been lucky and she seems to come right when I call her. But once her hunting drive kicks in, I really will not be certain....

    My Kuma (who is almost 3 years old now) was super outside the fence till about 8 months of age, then the hunting drive kicked in. (I already mentioned my story about him above in the previous post).

    And I definitely DO worry about someone shooting them (they do look a lot like a coyote) or taking them. Or a car hitting them...and just think of how much time and lots of $$$ you have invested into owning this RARE breed. It just isn't worth it to be off lead...IMHO.
  • kyralynkyralyn
    edited November -1
    Oh yeah it's definatley not worth unleashing with all the possible consequences...but how does a breeder walk all her dogs? :)
    Say if you got 10+ shikoku's, hows leash walking gonna work?
    In Texas they have really nice leash-free dog parks, I doubt any wild critters are gonna be running around there except for squirrels lol

    And uh oh, I didn't think about digging. Aren't there ways to block that? I imagine there would, only it probably costs a lot of $$$ for a under fence barrier, if they have any. :b
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    edited August 2010
    I have taken my shibas on hikes off leash before, but I don't do it anymore. It's just too stressful. They will follow me, but at their own pace, and they often take off after other animals, and they come back, but at their own pace.

    If I had a Shikoku, I wouldn't do it--I'd also be scared someone would think it was a coyote!

    I think not having dogs offleash is part of the trade off in having many of the NKs.....If have a dog that is reliable off leash is important, than probably an NK is not the best choice. There are plenty of dogs that are good at that....

    As for walking them, I have to walk my dogs separately anyway, so I suspect a person with a lot of dogs simply doesn't take them all out at the same time.
  • kyralynkyralyn
    edited November -1
    Well, I do plan on meeting and getting to know a shikoku before making final decisions, to see if I can handle it lol
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    edited November -1
    From a hunter's perspective:

    Hunting dogs will do what hunting dogs do. Shikoku with no prey drive are a rarity, but I have a friend (who wanted to hunt with his dogs *ironic*) who owns 2. They won't chase anything at all.

    If you take your pup off leash with you on hikes from when it's young, playing hide and seek and things like that will usually be enough to teach it to stay close (use treats too). If it has hunting drive however (and each dog has different amounts), as the dog gets older and gains more confidence it will be harder to call your dog off game. It will range farther, chase longer, and attempt to complete the hunt cycle (catch). Pretty much any dog that has been out walking in the wild with its owner from a young age will eventually come back, or at least try to. The problem is that some dogs haven't learned how to back track, are more persistent and will chase game too far to where they can't follow scent trails back to you. Some dogs just get lost.

    The best thing you can do if your dog does take off in the wild is just stay where you are and wait. It make take a few minutes, or a few hours, but usually the dog will come back. If you have to leave the spot, move slowly back along the trail you came in on trying to leave as much scent as possible for your dog to follow.

    If you're looking for a dog that will be okay off leash and will not take off after animals, NK are not your best bet. You can train some to stop on command. I worked on it with my Kai since she was a pup, and I used to be able to call her off game till a couple months ago. I think it may have to do with her confidence and prey drive increasing.

    As for what people with 10+ dogs do over here, well they walk them separately. A lot of people exercise their dogs on bicycles, 1-3 dogs at a time. I usually walk my dogs separately as I have more control over them that way. Walking 3 hunting dogs in a residential area with lots of stray cats is absolutely annoying.
  • kyralynkyralyn
    edited November -1
    Okay thank you all! There a bunches of leash-free dog parks, with hiking trails and such. They are not fenced though, so that's what I worry about. If I was a breeder, I would want all my dogs to be able to play together, off the leash. Hopefully toys, treats and other new dogs to play with would distract the fact that there may be a squirrel in the brush.
    :-)
    LOL--Shigeru, that is funny that your friends dogs don't hunt when he is a hunter. If he wasn't a hunter, they probably would chase after everything!
  • kyralynkyralyn
    edited November -1
    OH! I forgot to ask, will a shikoku (or shikoku's!) jump out of the bed of a moving (or frequent stopped) vehicle, if they see a critter?
    Whether if it's jumping out of the bed of a truck, or out the window of a car.
  • SayaSaya
    edited August 2010
    Hmm.. interesting question I'd say if the Shikoku wasn't secured and it saw a deer, squirrel or whatever there is a chance it would jump out especially if the car was standing still and it's in the bed of a truck.. or maybe not I don't own a shikoku so I dunno..

    Saya will whine and looks focused when she sees cows, rabbits, squirrels, deer, crows, and vultures when we drive by them.

    I've had window down once we drove by a herd of cows and luckily I had a good hold of her she was excited seeing those big things.
  • JessicaRabbitJessicaRabbit
    edited November -1
    There is no question in my mind that Miko would jump out without hesitation,
  • kyralynkyralyn
    edited August 2010
    Oh now that wouldn't be good...driving along, a deer runs across the road! Out jump the dogs, would especially suck to happen on a highway!
    NK is a handful...I see they have to be 100% secured at ALL TIMES...must be on a leash, remain inside the vehicle (with no open windows), fully fenced yards with barriers at the bottom to keep them from digging out...
    I want dogs that don't have to be on a leash during a hike or a trip to the park, and can stay in the bed of a truck, and not dig under the fence, and not run off when they see a critter...
    I really wanted a shikoku or a few, they are so beautiful and sweet, but I couldn't risk losing any dogs...
    So I guess the Shikoku is definatley not the right breed for me http://i1038.photobucket.com/albums/a469/kyralyn/26_crying.gif
  • dlrobertsdlroberts
    edited November -1
    Kudos to you for being able to admit that. It's sometimes difficult to let yourself acknowledge the undesirable traits when you've got your heart set on the desirable ones. I wish more people would be as honest with themselves as you are being. :-)
  • shishiinushishiinu
    edited November -1
    Out of the different breeds I have come across, I think the NK is hands down the most difficult to train and to keep off leash. My hunting Kishu's cannot be off leash on regular walks or be in the bed without being secured. They just have a really high drive to chase game especially deer, hogs, cats, and small dogs. Its just a big liability to have a high prey drive dog off leash in the city and even when I'm out hunting I always have to keep tabs to make sure that Taro is not baying some hikers.

    But as Dave said, its great that you understand whats involved in owning a NK and making wise decisions on whether a Shikoku will work for you or not. Its definately important that people really understand what they are going to get into cause once you get a dog, you are responsible for it till the end.
  • kyralynkyralyn
    edited November -1
    Thanks Dave :)
    I just couldn't deal with the stress of losing my dogs, I probably wouldn't ever forgive myself if my dogs were lost, injured, or killed. So I won't take any chances, and leave the Shikoku breed for all you others who can handle them, and be happy for you guys. :D
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    edited November -1
    Kudos to you, Kyralyn. Like Dave said, it can be really hard to come to grips with the fact that a breed isn't going to be the best for you (especially one as mesmerizing as the Shikoku). But yeah, you can almost count on the fact that given the chance a Shikoku will be taking off after what it sees as game, whether it's in an off leash environment, or from the back of your truck.
  • JessicaRabbitJessicaRabbit
    edited November -1
    Bravo for being that self aware. And wise enough to accept that the look of the dog might fit your wants but not the personality. I am going to concur with Gen that of all the dogs I have owned and worked with NK are the most challenging (specifically the Shikoku and Shiba Inu, I will admit Hilo is a turn key dog by comparison).

    Hands down the easiest dogs I have ever had would be pit bulls, second would be GSD, then probably Rotties.
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    edited November -1
    Just echoing what everyone else said: good for you for exploring the possibilities and then admitting that it probably won't work for what you're wanting in a dog.

    I had an Elkhound when I was a kid who had such a high prey drive she'd jump out of a window of a moving vehicle if she saw an animal....once she almost went out the window after a moose....She was the smartest dog I've ever had (taught herself how to climb a ladder, etc) bar none, but also very difficult to get to do anything she didn't want to do.....Perhaps it was that dog that started me on my love of difficult dogs! :)

    The easiest dogs I've worked with have been GSD's, but I haven't ever worked with a Pit, who I know are wonderfully smart and biddable. So far, my AA is great (of course he's just a baby)--he learns fast and wants to please and wants to be with me and it's such a shock after having Shibas.....*lol*
  • kyralynkyralyn
    edited November -1
    Thank you all, Thank you :D
    I'll just have to learn about every dog I take interest in, and know the pros and cons so I don't make the mistake of getting the wrong dog for me.
    --
    And we own a GSD, and he is pretty easy to handle, except he can be annoying, he gets in the way a lot and paces all the time (his claws click-click-click on the wooden floor!). He groans A LOT. It's cute.
    And he loves to be spanked, instead of scratched. He's weird...
    And he has an obsession for lazer lights and flashlights, any light or reflection...we hang up a mirror outside on a sunny day, and he'll chase after the reflected light all day long.
    He makes it hard to go 4-wheeling at night...seeing the headlights in the dark, he just won't get out of the way! LOL
    And he loves to roll my step dad out of bed in the morning. He'll literally push him off the bed. When he wants everybody to be up, he'll get you up!
    Heres a pic of Buddy the GSD, with my step dad. (he's not as cranky as he looks)
  • SayaSaya
    edited November -1
    Great looking GSD I had a German shepherd/ lab mix dog growing up he was a great dog. =)
  • ShikokuSpiritShikokuSpirit
    edited November -1
    I'm with Brad on the "it's a matter of commitment". ANY dog can be trained! It's just easier with certain breeds and much more difficult with others.

    First off, you want to build a very strong relationship with your dog.

    Secondly, you want to train your dog.

    Thirdly, should you want to take your dog somewhere off-lead. I think it best to familarize your dog with the area (And yourself too, if you're not already!). Start off with a 6 foot lead and then after a few times switch out to a long line (10 meters or so). Make sure your dog knows his or her way back home.

    ONLY allow your dog off-lead in very secure areas (preferably large & fenced-in)...see where your dog is at in his or her training.

    I don't worry about loosing my dogs (I have Malinois & Shikoku)...what I DO worry about is them getting into some kind of trouble, especially trouble that may result in injuries. My Malinois & male Shikoku aren't so bad...they'll come back when called...however, my female Shikoku is kind of a "space cadet"...so her recall isn't all that reliable, she comes back when she feels like it or when I have something she wants, LOL.

    So...while I wouldn't reccommend the Shikoku as an off-lead dog it CAN be done. You have to be commited, consistent and have tons of patience though =]. They are best in environments with not too much distractions.

    I'd NEVER allow my dogs off-leash in an unfamilar and unsecure environment. It's best and safer when the dogs are well acquainted with their environment or are contained in a secure environment. If you can have both familarity and security...the better for you...the better for your dog(s).
  • kyralynkyralyn
    edited November -1
    Ah that's true Corina. But I do know I want to meet and be around any dog breed im interested in, to get to know them and see whether I can handle it or not, before owning one.
  • ShikokuSpiritShikokuSpirit
    edited November -1
    That is very wise of you. I, myself, before I got my Shikoku did exactly that. The end result...well you can tell my username and growing number of dogs, lol.
  • jikjakjikjak
    would the shikoku make a good retrieving dog for duck hunting?
    i know that akitas have webbed toes and are quite adept at swimming, ho do shikokus fare in the water?
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    edited October 2010
    Our Shikoku are not fond of swimming. Our Kai do enjoy it tho.

    Shikoku have webbed feet as well, Kishu and Hokka too, I believe... it's a snow thing not necessarily a water thing.
  • jikjakjikjak
    hehe my shiba doesnt like the water as well and my friends shiba would actually walk around puddles lol

    my previous akita loved to swim though.
    i guess if i put the time into it i could train the shika to be a bird dog?
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