@hondru - Unfortunately, upland season is over on wild birds, so it will have to wait until next year. He has a few more skills he needs to practice anyway. He'll be ready to go next season for sure.
@ Dave- Just curious about this aspect of bird hunting, "I packed up my shotgun, donned my bird gloves, busted the quail's wing and tossed it for Ty to chase. He was in heaven chasing this bird around in circles. He would catch it, chomp it, let go, and off it would run again."
Just curious, is this the preferred method for green dogs or are there other ways to make it easy for a dog to catch a bird without having to break a wing? I know almost nothing about bird hunting, but I would personally feel guilty if I had done that to one of my quail, even tho they were food and I slaughtered them.
@lindsayt I'd imagine another way would be to clip the wing feathers like you would for a pet bird, but that would need the forethought to bring scissors.
@lindsayt - There really is no "preferred" method. As for feeling guilty, you're absolutely justified. Truth is, I felt guilty too. In fact, I questioned whether or not to post about it, but ultimately I decided that honesty is the best policy.
I remember talking to Brad on the phone after the first day I took Tyson to be introduced to live birds. Ken, the trainer I was working with, broke a bird's wing and let Tyson chase it and at the time it made me uncomfortable. I even told Brad at the time I wasn't happy with it. I guess things change. :-/
Generally speaking, I try to use the method that Beth mentioned. The last 5-7 feathers on the bird's wing are their "flight feathers" and by clipping those, you handicap their ability to fly. In the past, Ken had scissors in his truck. On our last two outings, I've been working Tyson by myself. After having to break the bird's wing, I've included scissors in my gear bag for future outings.
Good to know. I was sorely tempted to let the dogs finish off the flock for me, but I felt bad about it since I wasn't actually hunting. What kind of quail do you use for training, by the way?
Well, it's been a month since our last outing. :-( I had some business travel and some weather got in the way, but I've been itching to get Ty out in the field again. I opted to ignore opening day of Turkey season and head out with Ty early this morning. It's been hot during the day the last few days (in the neighborhood of 80), so I wanted to get down to the preserve by 8:00 so we could train for a few hours before it got hot again today. Turns out it wasn't necessary at all. The weather forecast was totally wrong, and today's predicted 80 degrees turned into overcast and 55. Things were pretty soggy out in the field, wich made for a wet dog, wet socks, and wet pants all the way up to my thighs. Sounds like it wouldn't be too much fun right? WRONG! I had a BLAST! :-)
I woke up at 5:15 and walked all three dogs for 20 minutes, fed them, donned a pair of camo pants and Ty immediately started going nuts. He was bouncing off the walls and whining like crazy. I was pretty sure it was excitement, but I couldn't help but remember a few outings ago when Ty started blinking really badly. Before that trip, Ty was whining and bouncing like he was this morning, but it was stress then, not excitement. We got in my truck, and his whining continued. It was so loud, the guy at the Dunkin Donuts drive through couldn't hear my order. "Ty, SHUT UP!!!" cry..cry..cry...cry. :-/
For the entire 1:15 drive, Ty was bouncing and crying. I wasn't quite sure what to expect at that point. I let him out of the truck around 8am when we arrived, and he immediately got into a scuffle with one of the preserve dogs. Ugggg. I let him run around for about 15 minutes, at which point he happily came trotting around the corner covered in cow shit...again. :-( Uggggg. This is starting out to be a rough day for me. I grabbed his colar, walked him over to the hose, and sprayed him down. I then put him in my truck and climbed in to go catch some chukar. He immediately shook off, spraying me and me truck with cow shit-laden water droplets. "F**king gross Ty!" "Sorry dad, lemme lick it off for you". Blech. :-P
I caught six chukar, put them in a bird box in the bed of my truck, and went off for one of the fields we've done quite a bit of training in before. I detoured to a pond and got Ty to retrive the chukar dummy from the water 2 or 3 times to get any of the remaining cow dung off him, then drove out into the field and planted the first bird. Today, rather than put the birds to sleep, I dizzied them and just threw them into cover. I could see them land upright and just sit. I was encouraged. I drove us clear across the field, put 8 12 gage shells in my pocket and 1 in each of the two barrels of my over under, and let Ty out to go hunt. (I decided it was time to try firing my 12 gage over Ty, in each of our last few outings I've been using my 20 gage.)
Ty immediately took off and started following my tire tracks. "TTTTYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY. WWWWWHHHOAAAAAA! Hunt over here." He was cheating! No following my tire tracks. Reluctantly, he slowed down, and turned toward me. I gave him a cheerful "Ty, Hunt over here buddy" and he quickly bounded through the tall grass in my direction. I worked him around the far side of the field that we hadn't driven through to get him downwind of the bird. He quartered pretty well, working the wind nicely once we got into position. Soon, his head popped up, nostrils flared, and he started air scenting in to the bird. I clicked the safety off and hurried in to be in position for a shot. Ty spotted the bird and pounced. No luck for him this time, the bird saw him coming, lept up, and took off flying directly into the wind. I raised my Browning, drew a bead, and squeezed the trigger. In my peripheral vision, I could see Ty watching the bird patiently from the point of the flush. That is EXACTLY the type of behavior you want in a flushing dog. BANG! My 12 gage cracked loudly, the bird took a direct hit, tumbled straight down, and off lept Ty to collect his winnings. "GAAAAABOOOOOYYYEEEEEE TY!!!!!! GAAAABOOOOOYEEEEEEE!!!!" He chomped the bird pretty good, but I was ok with it. He worked it well, was patient after the flush, didn't shy from the 12 gage noise, and quickly located the downed bird. I let him have his moment. :-) After he pulled out a few feathers, I took the bird from him and tossed it a few times for him to chase. As I carried it back to my truck, holding it at shoulder height, Ty proudly walked along next to me, jumping up trying to get his bird.
I put the bird on the truck bed and Ty jumped up to hold it. Just then, he dropped it and started growling pretty viciously. I turned to find Bink (GSP/Lab mix), our old training buddy, had come to pay us a visit. Bink LOVES to hunt, so she runs towards the sound of a shotgun. I put the bird away and let Ty play with Bink for a bit. Then I loaded both of them in my truck and drove across the field to plant 2 more birds. This time, I wanted Ty to find and retrive the first bird, and then find the second bird rather than go back to the truck. I dizzied up the first bird and tossed it into some shallow cover at one end of the field that was bordered by a drainage ditch and some waist high cover. I then dizzied up the second bird and tossed it about 50 feet away. I did my best to follow my tire tracks back to the other end of the field, where I reloaded my 12 gage and set Ty off to hunt. Again, he tried to cheat, and follow my tire tracks. "AAAAAY, TY! Hunt over here buddy" I got him to quarter down a path along the side of the field, so we could get downwind of the planted birds. I then turned right near the end of the field to work Ty back into the wind towards the birds. We were near the bottom of the hill and the wind was doing some weird things. Ty had some trouble locating the first bird. I almost walked right over it because it had run about 20 feet from where I planted it. I walked past it, and called Ty back "Ty, hunt over here...bird in here" He ignored me for a few seconds, then made a nice loop around, passing on the upwind side of the bird. No way he was going to smell it, so I started following him back downwind of the bird. Just then, he stopped, turned around, picked his head up, flared his nostrils, and started working in on the bird. I clicked the safety off and got ready.
Ty worked in on the bird and flushed it about 15 yards from me. "Perfect" I thought to myself as the bird jumped 8 feet up and took flight. I raised my shotgun just as the bird took a hard 180 degree turn and started flying back towards me. "Whoa" I thought to myself as I hurriedly squeezed off a poorly aimed round before the bird reached me. Miss. I pivoted as the bird flew overhead and drew a bead on it for the second time. It made a slight left turn, so I aimed farther left and squeezed off a second round. A couple feathers flew off and the bird turned harder left. I watched where I thought it landed and started over there to help Ty look for the cripple. Ty hunted the area of the fall enthusiastically, bounding around through 3-4 foot cover happily. He got really interested in this one area that I was convinced was really far from where the bird had landed, so I kept working him down the field and then back into the wind. After about 10 minutes, I decided to give up and go after the second bird and to come back for the cripple later. Ty, still not having found his bird, was enthusiastic about moving on. He worked along the side of the field, perpendicular to the wind direction very nicely. Before long, he slowed, and got very "birdy" again. I could see him slow down and begin to trust his nose. I clicked off the safety and got into position about 10 yards from where I thought the bird was based on Ty's behavior. Then Ty paused, tail wagging, eyes focused intensely. I had just enough time to think to myself "Is that a point?!?!?!?!" when Ty inched forward and up sprung the bird. It flew up and then made a hard left out towards the tall cover. I raised my gun and swung it to the left to follow, noticing Ty standing patiently and watching the bird. BANG! Down falls the bird in some short grass just short of the drainage ditch. Ty spots it, then sprints over to go find it. He runs right past it to the bottom of the ditch, searches around frantically, then bounds up the other side and disappears in the tall cover. "Hmmm, I should probably trust him, but I'm pretty sure that bird is on this side of the ditch" I think to myself as I slowly follow Ty's path. Just then, I see something grey at the very bottom of my vision, and look down just in time to see myself about to step on this downed bird. Ooops! I let Ty search for about 5 minutes, then I called him back across the ditch. He kept looking around, but just couldn't seem to scent this bird. Finally, he found it completely by accident. He was coming to check in with me and stepping on it. lol! At that point, he was too focused on the bird we found to go look for the cripple. So we walked back to the truck, I put the bird away, gave Ty some water, and put him inside.
I then moved my truck closer to the area of the cripple, and let both Ty and Bink out to search. "Dead. Hunt dead." I said as both Ty and Bink took off. Bink, having fresh legs, and being a natural bird dog, was REALLY impressive. She casted about about 35 yards and made huge quartering loops, covering massive area, stopping on a dime to investigate scents further, and then moving on quickly if she judged they weren't important. Ty didn't have the legs to keep up with her, so he sat patiently about 10 yards away from me and watched her. I was just looking over at Ty, smiling at how proud I was of him (and also at how cute/handsome he is) when I hear the tell-tale sound of a bird flapping in water to escape an approaching dog. "Good girl Binkyyyy!" Next thing I know, there's a mostly dead chukar at my feet. Well, at least there was for a few seconds before Ty came rushing in and stole it! lol.
First half over, I've taken 4 shots and I have three dead birds in my cooler, all of which Ty found. Pretty damn good if you ask me, especially considering the less than ideal wet conditions. :-)
I loaded Ty and Bink back in my truck, and decided for the second half, I would plant all three birds at once. I drove a big arc around the top of the hill in the field and planted each of the three birds. I then went back to the far corner, and let Ty out to hunt. At this point, he was a little tired, so rather than run, he trotted along at a slight angle into the wind. It only took him a minute or two to locate the first bird. I saw him get birdy and hurried into position, but he took his time working in on the bird. I was only about 5 yards away when he finally flushed it, and I downed it on the first shot. Ty happily bounced over and finished it off for me. I grabbed it and tossed it a few times, before putting it in my bird vest and telling Ty to go hunt. He seemed to get the idea this time that there can be more than one bird out there at a time. He again, trotted off slowly, ground scenting. We worked up the hill a good 25 or 30 yards outside my truck tire marks, so I was pretty sure he wasn't following that path. We got to the area of the second bird, and Ty got slightly birdy, but I guess he couldn't really smell it. I walked along downwind of him, and spotted he bird before he did. I waited for a minute or so and let Ty decide where to hunt. When it became clear he was going to stay upwind of the bird, I decided to follow him and to come back for this bird after we found the third. He continued to work up the hill slowly, and when we neared the edge of the field, he began to quarter back and forth much more noticeably. Next thing I know, he's on the bird, head up, tail wagging vigorously, but otherwise frozen. A point! Holy crap! My boar dog is pointing a bird!!!!!! "GAAAABOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE TYSON, GAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!" I squeaked. I walked up along side of him and continued to offer exuberant praise for him. After about 15 seconds, I took a step in and kicked up the bird. I guess its wings were pretty wet, because it barely flew anywhere. Maybe 15 feet. I wan't about to shoot it, but that didn't bother Ty. He charged off and took care of business himself. We played with the bird a bit, and then I put it in my bird vest. "Let's go hunt!" Ty looked at me quizzically for a second, seemed almost to shrug, and then took off trotting along up the hill again. I called him and said "hunt this way Ty," so he turned around and ran out in front of me a bit. He trotted back and forth back down the hill a nice 20-25 yards in front of me. Then, he got birdy again. Nostrils flaring, head low this time, he worked back up the hill a bit. Next thing I know, he's standing frozen again, except for his tail excitedly wagging. As I close in and lavish him with tons of verbal praise, I see that he's 3 feet away from the bird he couldn't find before. I keep praising him as I walk up along side him. After a solid 15 seconds, he inches forward on the bird. Up it jumped and off it flew. I leveled my shotgun on it, took a deep breath, and squeezed off a round. BANG! Down comes the bird, off bounds Ty. A perfect sequence! (Excluding the retrive part of course.)
At the end of the day, I had all six birds in my truck, and I fired exactly six rounds. Ty pointed his first birds all by himself today too! Yeah, I'm extremely psyched!
Wow! That's quite an adventure you guys had this morning. I assume you took Binky back home afterwards?
Congrats on the successful bird hunts. Sounds like Ty is developing into a bird dog! Yay! Great way to exercise him both mentally and physically too. Is he all tired out or did he get more energized from all the tracking and searching excitement?
--------- Love the photo by the way. Oh and you can tell Ty that cow dung is definitely not attractive, he looks handsome without it, lol!
Dude you guys are on fire! I'm so glad that he is starting to mature into a really wanting hunt and be a bird dog. Definately a long road and I'm sure you'll still have small bumps in the road but to me looks like Ty is already on the road as a started dog. Now you just gotta get him on some wild birds and see how he does.
@ShikokuSpirit - Thanks! He definitely gets pretty tired from hunting. He still has plenty of energy to romp in the yard when we get home, but when we're back inside, he sleeps rather than play with toys. Tyson is a pretty busy dog. Even with the 1.5-2 hours of exercise he gets daily, he spends a lot of his time wandering the house amusing himself. On hunting days and usually the day after, he sleeps most of his time in the house.
@shishiinu - I know! I need to get his retrieving sorted out, which I plan to work on this summer, but otherwise he's making excellent progress. At this point it's just repetition, repetition, repetition. The laws about dog training in NC are a little restrictive. Technically speaking, I can't train him on public lands unless there's an open season for game that can be legally hunted on public lands with dogs. Right now, that means waiting until upland season opens next year. :-( I'm hoping to get around that issue by "hiking" with him in some of the "dual use" game areas that are also national or state parks. As long as I'm not carrying a firearm, knife, bow, etc. it would be tough to call it hunting or training.
I see that it's been since last April that I've written an update on Tyson's training log. The truth is, life got busy over the summer and we did zilch in terms of training. Back in August, when we brought Diesel home, I kicked things into high gear. Diesel was, and continues to be, a big disruption on what our normal routine was and being such a young puppy, it is critical that he gets the right training. I used those factors to restart Tyson's training as well. I have what I think are two very interesting observations now that I'm training a purpose-bred bird dog alongside Tyson.
1) Desire: Diesel has gobs and gobs and gobs of it. Tyson, well, just doesn't. Not for birds anyway. Deer? Now that's a different story. If you put Tyson out in a bird field, he'll hunt. He run happily though the tall grass, occasionally weaving back and forth, but generally trying to follow the path of least resistance. His nose is high as he scents the air. If he catches something, he'll investigate cautiously, but then move on. Often times I'll spot a bird in the area he's "birdy" long before he finds and flushes or catches it. After he's hunted for 45 minutes or an hour, found 2 or 3 birds, he's done. He'd prefer to just enjoy being outside than worry about chasing down those pesky birds. On the other hand, we take daily walks in our woods where there is a very large deer population. At the end of an hour long walk in 90+ degree heat, Ty can scent a deer and be gone in an instant. Early in the summer, when we first started these walks, he might disappear for 10 or 15 minutes before finding me again. Not a problem if we're 10 miles deep in a national forest or state game lands. Big problem when we're just 1/2 mile from a busy road. We've got that problem under control now, but it does illustrate a point. If Tyson believes a deer is near, he'll do everything he can to go chase it. After some fun hunting birds, he's done, even if there's more out there.
2) Pressure: Diesel could take more of it as a 8 week old puppy than Tyson takes as a 20 month old. I'll admit, I didn't really understand the concept of pressure until now. I read about it all the time when it comes to training bird dogs. "Apply gentle pressure using a tug on the training collar." "Use the e-collar to apply pressure." I finally got frustrated and did some research on what exactly pressure is when it comes to training a dog. Pressure is the discomfort that precedes learning a new behavior. That doesn't have to be physical pressure like a shock from an e-collar. Confusion is a form of pressure. And apparently one form that Tyson doesn't tolerate. I don't, but I probably could tug on a collar all day long and Tyson wouldn't mind a bit. But when I'm asking him to do something new and he's either not interested in it, or doesn't understand it, he's done. He shuts down and that's it for the day, probably a few days or even a few weeks. Here's an example. Over the summer, I started trying to get Tyson to retrieve birds better. I took him out in the yard with a pocket full of really yummy treats, his normal flat collar, and a 25ft check cord. I tossed the training dummy out 25 feet. He chased and grabbed it, then stood there. So I gently guided him back in with the check cord, praised and treated him as he dropped the dummy at my feet. Lots of encouragement. I repeated this three or four times, but each time I used the check cord to gently guide him back in, he got less and less enthusiastic about going for the bumper. Weird. Wanting to end on a high note, I took off the check cord and gave him a fun bumper to retrive. The next day, I decided to switch him up and see if I could start to steady him up a bit. Flushing dogs are generally trained to "hup", or sit, after a bird flushes. This is for two reasons. 1) To help them "mark" the fall of the bird, and 2) To keep them from chasing the bird and accidentally getting shot by an over zealous hunter. To train this, I started with a 1 ft leash on Tyson flat collar. I put him in a sit-stay next to me, held the leash and threw the bumper. Initially Ty tried to run and get it immediately. I gave him the sit command again, then released the leash when he was sitting and called his name to release him. He slowly trotted out to get the bumper, then refused to bring it back. After repeating this twice, I gave up and played with him in the yard for a bit. The next day, I took him out with the bumper and a pile of treats to get back to basics with him, and he refused to come near me. He wouldn't take a treat, he wouldn't chase the bumper, he wouldn't even look at me. FAIL.
On the bright side, for three out of the last four weekends, we've been at the preserve playing with pigeons. I've been very hands off with him during these training sessions, just letting him hunt at his pace, chase downed birds, and carry them around for a while (as long as he doesn't chew them up). I'm just generally trying to build his enthusiasm. I know Ty has a good time when we're out there. And I know I do too. There's almost nothing more rewarding for me as a dog owner than having Tyson up on the tailgate of my truck after a morning training in the field, wiping him down with a towel, and telling him what a good boy he is. The soundness with which he sleep on the 1:20 drive home is evidence enough that he's had a great time. I've decided that skills-wise, I've taken Ty about as far as he's going to come. He's definitely a started dog. He knows how to find birds in a field. He knows how to locate downed birds. And he's learning not to chew them up real bad. Will he ever retrive? I doubt it at this point. We he ever has the flash or style of Diesle or any other well-bred bird dog? Probably not. Are we going to get out there and have fun in the woods together no matter what? You bet your ass! :-)
It would be curious to see if having Diesel around would help encourage Tyson to get to the next level. Seeing Diesel get praise for retrieving a bird may help Tyson understand that it's good to retrieve. It would be cool to see them working together, having them both search and flush while Diesel retrieves.
I've been noticing this with Tikaani and Miyu when practicing with the dumb bell retrieves for obedience. Tikaani isn't very interested in even grabbing the dumb bell in class or by himself, but when I work with Miyu (who is very interested in it and is starting to retrieve after I toss it) Tikaani is more enthusiastic about it and more wanting to grab it. He can go through more repetitions with her around before wanting to do something else.
Wow sounds like ty kun needs to be put on some big game! Not sure if diesel would be able to convince ty to stay on course since ty may not see diesel in a way where he has any influence. Just the way you described ty and his scenting ability, he just maybe be more interested in tracking and chasing. He's basically doing exactly what my kishus do when looking for hogs. He definitely is showing that he's not having fun with retrieving.
Imho I think ty has the drive to chase larger moving objects just like taro does. When I started taro out on rabbits, he would chase them for a little and go right into chasing deer. Its gonna be one of those things where its gonna be hard to break him of his desires to chase large game.
Sounds like diesel is a champ, its amazing what the difference is in the two game specific hunting dogs. The attitude and drive of the two are completely different.
I've been noticing this with Tikaani and Miyu when practicing with the dumb bell retrieves for obedience. Tikaani isn't very interested in even grabbing the dumb bell in class or by himself, but when I work with Miyu (who is very interested in it and is starting to retrieve after I toss it) Tikaani is more enthusiastic about it and more wanting to grab it. He can go through more repetitions with her around before wanting to do something else.
Some dogs won't retrieve inanimated things. I know of a Golden Retriever who never retrieved until the owner shot a rabbit while whacking in the bush with her, and then it clicked.
I also know of dogs who won't be able to finish a lure course, but will course the real thing.
It sounds like to me, the problem isn't with Tyson; but rather the cultural context he is in.
Finland:
Russia:
In Russia, they use West Siberian Laikas and Finnish Spitzes to retrieve ducks, however if you read the manuals on duck-hunting, the only thing expected of them is to take the duck out of the water, not DEVOUR the bird and mark where they dropped the bird. Delivering to hand is a bonus. It's very different from the Anglo-American style of hunting, despite the overall goal of the hunt is the same.
They don't really make the dog sit or point while flushing either, only to freeze at the gun. So, it's not the dog; it's the owners' expectations.
@calia I don't think Ty will care about Diesel retrieving, nor would it motivate him if he's anything like mine. And it sounds like he is. IMO kais could care less what other dogs are int.
@dlroberts Very interesting. Ty sounds just like Mei and Koda. To the T in fact. Neither of them are particular interested in birds. Mei moreso than Koda I guess. She's just a very high drive dog, but even then she's scanning the area for bigger game. Koda and Mei will take off after deer. They love it. Mei tries to swipe the deer down and Koda goes to grab with his mouth. If they hear somethign rustling in the bushes, I usually say "It's just a bird" and both of them calm down.
Also very interesting on the shutting down when pressure is applied. This is Koda and Mei all the way too.
@souggy - Thanks for the videos. Interesting those breeds are used for retrieving. I wouldn't have thought of them as retrievers at all. I see your point about cultural context. But in this case, my expectations for Ty have always been just to go out and have fun. I never expected him to be a "finished" hunting dog. I never expected him to compete in hunt tests or field trials. Nor did I expect him to turn any heads out in the field. I think my expectations are right in line with his abilities.
I do want to point out one thing though. In both of those videos, but especially the first video, the dog was extremely enthusiastic. The water entry by the first dog was impressive. That dog had a strong desire to retrieve. Tyson has plenty of desire, just not for birds. He will enter a lake or pond to retrieve, but it isn't with the same gusto that he will scamper up a shallow creek bed in the woods. He will quater an upland field, but it isn't with the same enthusiasm that he weaves in and out of the trees and over logs in the woods. He hunts birds because I trained him to, not because he lives to do it.
So, I think it is the dog. Not my expectations. That doesn't mean I think he's a bad dog. Or I'm disappointed in him. Or I love him any less. It's just the reality of taking a dog bred to do one thing and training them to do something else.
@calia - Interesting suggestion. I may try some training along those lines, but I'm probably not going to hunt Ty and Diesel together any time in the foreseeable future. Diesel is a pointing lab, so he is going to basically need to be a finished upland dog capable of remaining steady to flush, shot and fall before I can hunt him with a flushing dog like Tyson.
Interesting discussion about Ty and Diesel's different aptitudes. Now I'm not a hunter or a particularly good trainer, but it sounds as though Ty maybe more of a scent/sight hound than a 'bird dog".
You've got me wondering how Sosuke would be as a bird dog. He's very interested in birds when we're out walking. He chases flying birds until they're out of site and he has also jumped into the water chasing birds. And, of course, he jumps into the water any chance he gets and loves retrieving. He's very interested in deer, too. He's pretty interested in everything, actually. His nose is always going and he never quits.
Thanks for explaining. It's just I know from experience, what people want to do and what is practical are two very different things, so I decided to provide an alternative view. I mean "hup" never made sense to me because my family never had to train for that for flushing; until it was revealed to me a lot of Springers are unable to control their desire to catch the bird.
Hope you figured out what to do with Tyson though!
I'm not surprised that laiki are used as retrievers. Tuula retrieves well, but as Dave said, not with anywhere near the enthusiasm or the precision of a dedicated retriever.
Its tought to be a dog that has been bred for so long to do one thing. I'm sure ou can train any dog to be a bird dog but regardless of what style is used, a proven bird dog is hard to beat for bird hunting as a proven big game dog is hard to beat for big game. Cant wait o see pics of Diesel retrieving some green heads.
Dave, you obviously need to supervise your dogs more closely. Mine were trying to call Taro, too, but I caught them and made them sit in the corner. Mama don't need no long-distance phone charges!
Comments
@hondru - Unfortunately, upland season is over on wild birds, so it will have to wait until next year. He has a few more skills he needs to practice anyway. He'll be ready to go next season for sure.
Just curious, is this the preferred method for green dogs or are there other ways to make it easy for a dog to catch a bird without having to break a wing? I know almost nothing about bird hunting, but I would personally feel guilty if I had done that to one of my quail, even tho they were food and I slaughtered them.
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I remember talking to Brad on the phone after the first day I took Tyson to be introduced to live birds. Ken, the trainer I was working with, broke a bird's wing and let Tyson chase it and at the time it made me uncomfortable. I even told Brad at the time I wasn't happy with it. I guess things change. :-/
Generally speaking, I try to use the method that Beth mentioned. The last 5-7 feathers on the bird's wing are their "flight feathers" and by clipping those, you handicap their ability to fly. In the past, Ken had scissors in his truck. On our last two outings, I've been working Tyson by myself. After having to break the bird's wing, I've included scissors in my gear bag for future outings.
@brada1878 - Feel free to use it!
I woke up at 5:15 and walked all three dogs for 20 minutes, fed them, donned a pair of camo pants and Ty immediately started going nuts. He was bouncing off the walls and whining like crazy. I was pretty sure it was excitement, but I couldn't help but remember a few outings ago when Ty started blinking really badly. Before that trip, Ty was whining and bouncing like he was this morning, but it was stress then, not excitement. We got in my truck, and his whining continued. It was so loud, the guy at the Dunkin Donuts drive through couldn't hear my order. "Ty, SHUT UP!!!" cry..cry..cry...cry. :-/
For the entire 1:15 drive, Ty was bouncing and crying. I wasn't quite sure what to expect at that point. I let him out of the truck around 8am when we arrived, and he immediately got into a scuffle with one of the preserve dogs. Ugggg. I let him run around for about 15 minutes, at which point he happily came trotting around the corner covered in cow shit...again. :-( Uggggg. This is starting out to be a rough day for me. I grabbed his colar, walked him over to the hose, and sprayed him down. I then put him in my truck and climbed in to go catch some chukar. He immediately shook off, spraying me and me truck with cow shit-laden water droplets. "F**king gross Ty!" "Sorry dad, lemme lick it off for you". Blech. :-P
I caught six chukar, put them in a bird box in the bed of my truck, and went off for one of the fields we've done quite a bit of training in before. I detoured to a pond and got Ty to retrive the chukar dummy from the water 2 or 3 times to get any of the remaining cow dung off him, then drove out into the field and planted the first bird. Today, rather than put the birds to sleep, I dizzied them and just threw them into cover. I could see them land upright and just sit. I was encouraged. I drove us clear across the field, put 8 12 gage shells in my pocket and 1 in each of the two barrels of my over under, and let Ty out to go hunt. (I decided it was time to try firing my 12 gage over Ty, in each of our last few outings I've been using my 20 gage.)
Ty immediately took off and started following my tire tracks. "TTTTYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY. WWWWWHHHOAAAAAA! Hunt over here." He was cheating! No following my tire tracks. Reluctantly, he slowed down, and turned toward me. I gave him a cheerful "Ty, Hunt over here buddy" and he quickly bounded through the tall grass in my direction. I worked him around the far side of the field that we hadn't driven through to get him downwind of the bird. He quartered pretty well, working the wind nicely once we got into position. Soon, his head popped up, nostrils flared, and he started air scenting in to the bird. I clicked the safety off and hurried in to be in position for a shot. Ty spotted the bird and pounced. No luck for him this time, the bird saw him coming, lept up, and took off flying directly into the wind. I raised my Browning, drew a bead, and squeezed the trigger. In my peripheral vision, I could see Ty watching the bird patiently from the point of the flush. That is EXACTLY the type of behavior you want in a flushing dog. BANG! My 12 gage cracked loudly, the bird took a direct hit, tumbled straight down, and off lept Ty to collect his winnings. "GAAAAABOOOOOYYYEEEEEE TY!!!!!! GAAAABOOOOOYEEEEEEE!!!!" He chomped the bird pretty good, but I was ok with it. He worked it well, was patient after the flush, didn't shy from the 12 gage noise, and quickly located the downed bird. I let him have his moment. :-) After he pulled out a few feathers, I took the bird from him and tossed it a few times for him to chase. As I carried it back to my truck, holding it at shoulder height, Ty proudly walked along next to me, jumping up trying to get his bird.
I put the bird on the truck bed and Ty jumped up to hold it. Just then, he dropped it and started growling pretty viciously. I turned to find Bink (GSP/Lab mix), our old training buddy, had come to pay us a visit. Bink LOVES to hunt, so she runs towards the sound of a shotgun. I put the bird away and let Ty play with Bink for a bit. Then I loaded both of them in my truck and drove across the field to plant 2 more birds. This time, I wanted Ty to find and retrive the first bird, and then find the second bird rather than go back to the truck. I dizzied up the first bird and tossed it into some shallow cover at one end of the field that was bordered by a drainage ditch and some waist high cover. I then dizzied up the second bird and tossed it about 50 feet away. I did my best to follow my tire tracks back to the other end of the field, where I reloaded my 12 gage and set Ty off to hunt. Again, he tried to cheat, and follow my tire tracks. "AAAAAY, TY! Hunt over here buddy" I got him to quarter down a path along the side of the field, so we could get downwind of the planted birds. I then turned right near the end of the field to work Ty back into the wind towards the birds. We were near the bottom of the hill and the wind was doing some weird things. Ty had some trouble locating the first bird. I almost walked right over it because it had run about 20 feet from where I planted it. I walked past it, and called Ty back "Ty, hunt over here...bird in here" He ignored me for a few seconds, then made a nice loop around, passing on the upwind side of the bird. No way he was going to smell it, so I started following him back downwind of the bird. Just then, he stopped, turned around, picked his head up, flared his nostrils, and started working in on the bird. I clicked the safety off and got ready.
Ty worked in on the bird and flushed it about 15 yards from me. "Perfect" I thought to myself as the bird jumped 8 feet up and took flight. I raised my shotgun just as the bird took a hard 180 degree turn and started flying back towards me. "Whoa" I thought to myself as I hurriedly squeezed off a poorly aimed round before the bird reached me. Miss. I pivoted as the bird flew overhead and drew a bead on it for the second time. It made a slight left turn, so I aimed farther left and squeezed off a second round. A couple feathers flew off and the bird turned harder left. I watched where I thought it landed and started over there to help Ty look for the cripple. Ty hunted the area of the fall enthusiastically, bounding around through 3-4 foot cover happily. He got really interested in this one area that I was convinced was really far from where the bird had landed, so I kept working him down the field and then back into the wind. After about 10 minutes, I decided to give up and go after the second bird and to come back for the cripple later. Ty, still not having found his bird, was enthusiastic about moving on. He worked along the side of the field, perpendicular to the wind direction very nicely. Before long, he slowed, and got very "birdy" again. I could see him slow down and begin to trust his nose. I clicked off the safety and got into position about 10 yards from where I thought the bird was based on Ty's behavior. Then Ty paused, tail wagging, eyes focused intensely. I had just enough time to think to myself "Is that a point?!?!?!?!" when Ty inched forward and up sprung the bird. It flew up and then made a hard left out towards the tall cover. I raised my gun and swung it to the left to follow, noticing Ty standing patiently and watching the bird. BANG! Down falls the bird in some short grass just short of the drainage ditch. Ty spots it, then sprints over to go find it. He runs right past it to the bottom of the ditch, searches around frantically, then bounds up the other side and disappears in the tall cover. "Hmmm, I should probably trust him, but I'm pretty sure that bird is on this side of the ditch" I think to myself as I slowly follow Ty's path. Just then, I see something grey at the very bottom of my vision, and look down just in time to see myself about to step on this downed bird. Ooops! I let Ty search for about 5 minutes, then I called him back across the ditch. He kept looking around, but just couldn't seem to scent this bird. Finally, he found it completely by accident. He was coming to check in with me and stepping on it. lol! At that point, he was too focused on the bird we found to go look for the cripple. So we walked back to the truck, I put the bird away, gave Ty some water, and put him inside.
I then moved my truck closer to the area of the cripple, and let both Ty and Bink out to search. "Dead. Hunt dead." I said as both Ty and Bink took off. Bink, having fresh legs, and being a natural bird dog, was REALLY impressive. She casted about about 35 yards and made huge quartering loops, covering massive area, stopping on a dime to investigate scents further, and then moving on quickly if she judged they weren't important. Ty didn't have the legs to keep up with her, so he sat patiently about 10 yards away from me and watched her. I was just looking over at Ty, smiling at how proud I was of him (and also at how cute/handsome he is) when I hear the tell-tale sound of a bird flapping in water to escape an approaching dog. "Good girl Binkyyyy!" Next thing I know, there's a mostly dead chukar at my feet. Well, at least there was for a few seconds before Ty came rushing in and stole it! lol.
First half over, I've taken 4 shots and I have three dead birds in my cooler, all of which Ty found. Pretty damn good if you ask me, especially considering the less than ideal wet conditions. :-)
I loaded Ty and Bink back in my truck, and decided for the second half, I would plant all three birds at once. I drove a big arc around the top of the hill in the field and planted each of the three birds. I then went back to the far corner, and let Ty out to hunt. At this point, he was a little tired, so rather than run, he trotted along at a slight angle into the wind. It only took him a minute or two to locate the first bird. I saw him get birdy and hurried into position, but he took his time working in on the bird. I was only about 5 yards away when he finally flushed it, and I downed it on the first shot. Ty happily bounced over and finished it off for me. I grabbed it and tossed it a few times, before putting it in my bird vest and telling Ty to go hunt. He seemed to get the idea this time that there can be more than one bird out there at a time. He again, trotted off slowly, ground scenting. We worked up the hill a good 25 or 30 yards outside my truck tire marks, so I was pretty sure he wasn't following that path. We got to the area of the second bird, and Ty got slightly birdy, but I guess he couldn't really smell it. I walked along downwind of him, and spotted he bird before he did. I waited for a minute or so and let Ty decide where to hunt. When it became clear he was going to stay upwind of the bird, I decided to follow him and to come back for this bird after we found the third. He continued to work up the hill slowly, and when we neared the edge of the field, he began to quarter back and forth much more noticeably. Next thing I know, he's on the bird, head up, tail wagging vigorously, but otherwise frozen. A point! Holy crap! My boar dog is pointing a bird!!!!!! "GAAAABOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE TYSON, GAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!" I squeaked. I walked up along side of him and continued to offer exuberant praise for him. After about 15 seconds, I took a step in and kicked up the bird. I guess its wings were pretty wet, because it barely flew anywhere. Maybe 15 feet. I wan't about to shoot it, but that didn't bother Ty. He charged off and took care of business himself. We played with the bird a bit, and then I put it in my bird vest. "Let's go hunt!" Ty looked at me quizzically for a second, seemed almost to shrug, and then took off trotting along up the hill again. I called him and said "hunt this way Ty," so he turned around and ran out in front of me a bit. He trotted back and forth back down the hill a nice 20-25 yards in front of me. Then, he got birdy again. Nostrils flaring, head low this time, he worked back up the hill a bit. Next thing I know, he's standing frozen again, except for his tail excitedly wagging. As I close in and lavish him with tons of verbal praise, I see that he's 3 feet away from the bird he couldn't find before. I keep praising him as I walk up along side him. After a solid 15 seconds, he inches forward on the bird. Up it jumped and off it flew. I leveled my shotgun on it, took a deep breath, and squeezed off a round. BANG! Down comes the bird, off bounds Ty. A perfect sequence! (Excluding the retrive part of course.)
At the end of the day, I had all six birds in my truck, and I fired exactly six rounds. Ty pointed his first birds all by himself today too! Yeah, I'm extremely psyched!
Congrats on the successful bird hunts. Sounds like Ty is developing into a bird dog! Yay! Great way to exercise him both mentally and physically too. Is he all tired out or did he get more energized from all the tracking and searching excitement?
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Love the photo by the way. Oh and you can tell Ty that cow dung is definitely not attractive, he looks handsome without it, lol!
@shishiinu - I know! I need to get his retrieving sorted out, which I plan to work on this summer, but otherwise he's making excellent progress. At this point it's just repetition, repetition, repetition. The laws about dog training in NC are a little restrictive. Technically speaking, I can't train him on public lands unless there's an open season for game that can be legally hunted on public lands with dogs. Right now, that means waiting until upland season opens next year. :-( I'm hoping to get around that issue by "hiking" with him in some of the "dual use" game areas that are also national or state parks. As long as I'm not carrying a firearm, knife, bow, etc. it would be tough to call it hunting or training.
Tyson is turning into a really nice Kai!
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1) Desire: Diesel has gobs and gobs and gobs of it. Tyson, well, just doesn't. Not for birds anyway. Deer? Now that's a different story. If you put Tyson out in a bird field, he'll hunt. He run happily though the tall grass, occasionally weaving back and forth, but generally trying to follow the path of least resistance. His nose is high as he scents the air. If he catches something, he'll investigate cautiously, but then move on. Often times I'll spot a bird in the area he's "birdy" long before he finds and flushes or catches it. After he's hunted for 45 minutes or an hour, found 2 or 3 birds, he's done. He'd prefer to just enjoy being outside than worry about chasing down those pesky birds. On the other hand, we take daily walks in our woods where there is a very large deer population. At the end of an hour long walk in 90+ degree heat, Ty can scent a deer and be gone in an instant. Early in the summer, when we first started these walks, he might disappear for 10 or 15 minutes before finding me again. Not a problem if we're 10 miles deep in a national forest or state game lands. Big problem when we're just 1/2 mile from a busy road. We've got that problem under control now, but it does illustrate a point. If Tyson believes a deer is near, he'll do everything he can to go chase it. After some fun hunting birds, he's done, even if there's more out there.
2) Pressure: Diesel could take more of it as a 8 week old puppy than Tyson takes as a 20 month old. I'll admit, I didn't really understand the concept of pressure until now. I read about it all the time when it comes to training bird dogs. "Apply gentle pressure using a tug on the training collar." "Use the e-collar to apply pressure." I finally got frustrated and did some research on what exactly pressure is when it comes to training a dog. Pressure is the discomfort that precedes learning a new behavior. That doesn't have to be physical pressure like a shock from an e-collar. Confusion is a form of pressure. And apparently one form that Tyson doesn't tolerate. I don't, but I probably could tug on a collar all day long and Tyson wouldn't mind a bit. But when I'm asking him to do something new and he's either not interested in it, or doesn't understand it, he's done. He shuts down and that's it for the day, probably a few days or even a few weeks. Here's an example. Over the summer, I started trying to get Tyson to retrieve birds better. I took him out in the yard with a pocket full of really yummy treats, his normal flat collar, and a 25ft check cord. I tossed the training dummy out 25 feet. He chased and grabbed it, then stood there. So I gently guided him back in with the check cord, praised and treated him as he dropped the dummy at my feet. Lots of encouragement. I repeated this three or four times, but each time I used the check cord to gently guide him back in, he got less and less enthusiastic about going for the bumper. Weird. Wanting to end on a high note, I took off the check cord and gave him a fun bumper to retrive. The next day, I decided to switch him up and see if I could start to steady him up a bit. Flushing dogs are generally trained to "hup", or sit, after a bird flushes. This is for two reasons. 1) To help them "mark" the fall of the bird, and 2) To keep them from chasing the bird and accidentally getting shot by an over zealous hunter. To train this, I started with a 1 ft leash on Tyson flat collar. I put him in a sit-stay next to me, held the leash and threw the bumper. Initially Ty tried to run and get it immediately. I gave him the sit command again, then released the leash when he was sitting and called his name to release him. He slowly trotted out to get the bumper, then refused to bring it back. After repeating this twice, I gave up and played with him in the yard for a bit. The next day, I took him out with the bumper and a pile of treats to get back to basics with him, and he refused to come near me. He wouldn't take a treat, he wouldn't chase the bumper, he wouldn't even look at me. FAIL.
On the bright side, for three out of the last four weekends, we've been at the preserve playing with pigeons. I've been very hands off with him during these training sessions, just letting him hunt at his pace, chase downed birds, and carry them around for a while (as long as he doesn't chew them up). I'm just generally trying to build his enthusiasm. I know Ty has a good time when we're out there. And I know I do too. There's almost nothing more rewarding for me as a dog owner than having Tyson up on the tailgate of my truck after a morning training in the field, wiping him down with a towel, and telling him what a good boy he is. The soundness with which he sleep on the 1:20 drive home is evidence enough that he's had a great time. I've decided that skills-wise, I've taken Ty about as far as he's going to come. He's definitely a started dog. He knows how to find birds in a field. He knows how to locate downed birds. And he's learning not to chew them up real bad. Will he ever retrive? I doubt it at this point. We he ever has the flash or style of Diesle or any other well-bred bird dog? Probably not. Are we going to get out there and have fun in the woods together no matter what? You bet your ass! :-)
I've been noticing this with Tikaani and Miyu when practicing with the dumb bell retrieves for obedience. Tikaani isn't very interested in even grabbing the dumb bell in class or by himself, but when I work with Miyu (who is very interested in it and is starting to retrieve after I toss it) Tikaani is more enthusiastic about it and more wanting to grab it. He can go through more repetitions with her around before wanting to do something else.
Imho I think ty has the drive to chase larger moving objects just like taro does. When I started taro out on rabbits, he would chase them for a little and go right into chasing deer. Its gonna be one of those things where its gonna be hard to break him of his desires to chase large game.
Sounds like diesel is a champ, its amazing what the difference is in the two game specific hunting dogs. The attitude and drive of the two are completely different.
Wish I could hunt with ya guys!
I also know of dogs who won't be able to finish a lure course, but will course the real thing.
Finland:
Russia:
In Russia, they use West Siberian Laikas and Finnish Spitzes to retrieve ducks, however if you read the manuals on duck-hunting, the only thing expected of them is to take the duck out of the water, not DEVOUR the bird and mark where they dropped the bird. Delivering to hand is a bonus. It's very different from the Anglo-American style of hunting, despite the overall goal of the hunt is the same.
They don't really make the dog sit or point while flushing either, only to freeze at the gun. So, it's not the dog; it's the owners' expectations.
HTML copy of one of the manuals here: http://piterhunt.ru/Library/voylo4nikov/index.htm
@dlroberts Very interesting. Ty sounds just like Mei and Koda. To the T in fact. Neither of them are particular interested in birds. Mei moreso than Koda I guess. She's just a very high drive dog, but even then she's scanning the area for bigger game. Koda and Mei will take off after deer. They love it. Mei tries to swipe the deer down and Koda goes to grab with his mouth. If they hear somethign rustling in the bushes, I usually say "It's just a bird" and both of them calm down.
Also very interesting on the shutting down when pressure is applied. This is Koda and Mei all the way too.
I can't wait to hear how Diesel progresses!!
I do want to point out one thing though. In both of those videos, but especially the first video, the dog was extremely enthusiastic. The water entry by the first dog was impressive. That dog had a strong desire to retrieve. Tyson has plenty of desire, just not for birds. He will enter a lake or pond to retrieve, but it isn't with the same gusto that he will scamper up a shallow creek bed in the woods. He will quater an upland field, but it isn't with the same enthusiasm that he weaves in and out of the trees and over logs in the woods. He hunts birds because I trained him to, not because he lives to do it.
So, I think it is the dog. Not my expectations. That doesn't mean I think he's a bad dog. Or I'm disappointed in him. Or I love him any less. It's just the reality of taking a dog bred to do one thing and training them to do something else.
@calia - Interesting suggestion. I may try some training along those lines, but I'm probably not going to hunt Ty and Diesel together any time in the foreseeable future. Diesel is a pointing lab, so he is going to basically need to be a finished upland dog capable of remaining steady to flush, shot and fall before I can hunt him with a flushing dog like Tyson.
Hope you figured out what to do with Tyson though!