Nihon Ken as sleddogs?

Brego_mellon_nin

Hi all,

I have been looking for any sort of activities besides walking (I don't think we have enough nature to call it hiking, unless maybe cityhiking) and I came across the Danish Sleddog Association. As opposed to the Siberian Husky and Samojed Associations, they allow all breeds, and mix breeds to enter the races. Now I thought this might be a good option, if trained right, and if ofcourse the specific dogs likes to pull.

Now we only train sleddogs in Denmark if it's under 15 degrees celsius, to avoid the danger of overheating the dogs.

There's different categories, like a sled (only for years with lots of snow), carts, bikes, scooters and running (where you are attached to the dog by a belt and a hiking harness on the dog). Carts are only for 3 or 4 dogs and up, because of the weight they have to pull. I'd be using a bike or scooter. I cannot imagine running behind a nihon ken. I'm not in THAT great shape! Haha...

Anyways, I wanted to know, what you think of the idea, and if you have experience with sledding your nihon ken.

dlroberts

I don't know of anyone who has done any sledding with their dogs. Brad used to talk about skijoring with Ahi back in the day, but I don't recall if he ever pursued it beyond thinking about it.

As someone who is training a big game dog to hunt birds, I'll be the first to tell you that you can do whatever you want with your dogs. Will they ever fantastic at it? Probably not. Just like Tyson won't ever be as good as a purpose-bred bird dog. But that doesn't mean you can't have fun doing it. And really, that's what it's all about, right? :-)

BradA1878

I did some mushing with Loa, Kona, and Ahi but it stopped when Ahi's knees went bad. It was fun, and they could do it, but it was always a fight to keep them on track and not hunting.

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Kevin

Well, Tuula isn't an NK and I haven't done it yet, but I'm going to try bikejoring or skijoring with her after she's about a year, year and a half old. You can believe I'll post about it.
I was reading in Full Cry (tree dog hunting magazine) about a guy in Idaho with Plott hounds who built a sled at home from an old pair of skis and a folding chair. They'd go out hunting and the two dogs would draft this dude around until they came along a mountain lion track, at which point he'd let them go and they'd track the lion. Sweet.

tjbart17

Let's see. Could I use my imagination and see mine doing this? May would never. She would be too scatter brained and off for the hunt. Koda, hmmmm possibly, but if he was tied to another dog who had a high prey drive as well then that dog would set him off and he wouldn't be able to concentrate.

Hey it's always worth a try. I never say never. I walk my dogs off leash all the time and never have problems. People told me I would never be able to do that with Kais.

Brego_mellon_nin

Good to hear from others.

@dlroberts
For sure, it's all about having fun, and no, a nihon ken sleddog team might not ever be fantastic. But for me it's about a good way to exercise them and I'd never keep doing it, if the dogs doesn't enjoy it

Calia

I'll be Bikejoring with my Shikoku when I eventually get one. We have been doing it on and off with Tikaani, but have wanted to make it where Tom and I would be on our own bikes with a dog attached to each. Tetsu is way too small, should anything happen (like if the bike gets caught or if he stops and I'm too slow to react) he would get hurt far worse than a bigger dog. I may do some canicross with Tetsu, as he does have this innate ability to pull (which has helped me through some late night walks after a long day of work). He does have a tendency to try to chase after squirrels and cats, not nearly as bad as Tikaani though (that dog tried climbing a tree to get to a squirrel, he failed miserably), but teaching him a "let's go"/"leave it" command has helped keep him under control.

When we do have Tikaani and Shika, we may even get a tandem bike, hook both dogs up to that and put Tetsu in one of those dog bike trailers.

shibamistress

I went skijoring with the Akita I had years and years ago when I lived in Alaska still. (She was small, looked very much like JA rather than an AA). It was fun but she got tired pretty quickly--ran fast for a little bit then was done!

I had more success using her to haul things. I hooked her up to a simple kids plastic sled, and put all my water jugs on it (I had no indoor plumbing, so I hauled water). She liked that, and she was pretty good at pulling.

Brego_mellon_nin

@shibamistress
Yeah that's what I'm afraid of - that the AA might run out of energy. But I'll have a kai too and obvoiuly he will not be pulling my whole weight, that is far too much, but I can imagine he'll tire much slower than an AA??

Brego_mellon_nin

Hey all. Just talked to an AA breeder who used to go bikejoring and sledding with her dogs, and she did 3 km a day easy and she just did it for fun, so she never really had any ambitions and never tried to properly train them for it. By that I mean train for endurance and strength...

Here in Denmark we have races as short as 5 km, so I guess we will be able to compete a bit for fun, to see new places and meet folks with the same interest. I am really excited about this!

tjbart17

Tanja my Kai hates AA's. He also hates Malamutes, and Huskies bother him as well (mainly because he finds them to be rude). You may want to check out other Kai owner's experiences before mixing the two breeds in a home.

Just an fyi

ayk

A friend of mine has had her AA, her tweenie, and now her JA mush carts, scooters, and mountain bikes during the cool season in the California desert. They make good wheel dogs and have been in a mixed team with Malamutes. When things are less cold but still not too hot, they go back-packing with the dogs carrying theirs and their human's waters.

Here's a picture of some of her dogs biking this past season.

From left to right, it's a senior Jindo who is really just going on a walk in this case, her JA (or mostly JA from the shelter), and her tweenie (found stray).

shibamistress

Hmm.....well, I don't think liking/disliking other breeds can be generalized like that...that seems like a very up to the individual dog sort of thing.

Brego_mellon_nin

@tjbart17
Tara, I do not believe that is a breed characteristic What about Brad, he has his kai with loads of other breeds?

Anyway my kai will grow up with an AA in the house, and I really believe there is no reason why that should be a problem.
If anyone disagrees feel free to share...

tjbart17

I have heard of many Kais who challenge or fear bigger dogs. You may want to check on that.

Mind you, Koda is relatively an easy Kai who is well socialized, well trained, and lacks fear/anxiety/etc. He also passed his CGC at 16 mos. old. He is currently at a TDI. Koda is not your normal Kai. He is more well behaved then most.

Either way, I wouldn't pair a Kai with an AA or Malamute. You can disregard my opinion. It is no sweat off my back, but the one thing I think you MUST KNOW about Kais and I would say it's the main thing anyone wanting to own a Kai should know is that they have strict rules of conduct. Kais can be extremely well mannered and expect other dogs to act as they do.

I don't see AA's as obiding to the same rules as Kais do and this can be annoying to a Kai. I would also add in Huskies to that mix. I would assume that Koda and Maymay would play well with Huskies given their similar interests and size, but they won't go near them. Huskies annoy the crap out of them with their play growling and rambunctious behavior.

shibamistress

And my AA, even at 4 mos., is very calm in his behavior. He doesn't leap on other dogs and is not terribly rambunctious (though he does do some puppy bucking and bowing, but usually a distant from the dog he wants to approach), though he has learned to play that way with the Shibas. He's very good about sizing up other dogs and deciding what would be appropriate, even as such a young pup. He doesn't like to play with my friend's GSD, for example, because the GSD is so rowdy, and Oskar doesn't tend to play that way (though he usually adjusts and finds a middle ground in play style).

So I really don't think that this generalization of AAs is valid. And I'm really really leery of generalizations like "these breeds don't get along." I think they are just that--generalizations--and a careful and engaged dog owner can make things work.

Brego_mellon_nin

I met a lot of AAs for short periods of time, and I have had my foster AA about a week now, and he is so cool and polite! He always approaches other dogs calmly and he never is jumping in their face or invades their privacy. Even if he is off leash and encounters stranger dogs in the forest! So I would not compare AA to malamutes or huskies.

All the other AA owners I know have given me the same description of their dogs. Some even ignore othr dogs, because they have that spitzdog attitude!

Brego_mellon_nin

Ofcourse this AA has been well socialized as I intend to do with my own when time comes, as well as with my kai.

MirkaM

At dog park we usually are in the big dog zone. There is few bigger dogs with whom Ife get's along. Mix, Dalmatian, Irish wolfhound and one Golden retriever. To other dogs she tends to show her teeth and warn not to come close. And these dog really dont't get the message! They just keep to tresspass Ife's area. I think this is more about the communication. Primitive dogs has still their natural instincts very strong and they use to communicate just like wolfs. Sadly, many bred breeds don't understand anymore this communication. And then there will be conflicts between different breeds.

tjbart17

Ife is very common in the Kai world with her behavior.

Polite AA or not, I just can't see Kais getting along with them, or chosing them as a friend. They may deal with coexistance but if you expect them to play and be all buddy buddy forget about it. JMO. What do I know? I just have two.

I would like to add that I love Rott's. I was hoping to get another Rott puppy from a grand champion my uncle is breeding next year when a new import arrives from Germany. I will not be gettting my Rott because Koda just would not enjoy living with one. Maymay well she would not do well to say the least.

Sometimes I think that you have to chose one or the other, or which one you are going to bring into your home first and see if their personality would fit your match and expectations. If not, then maybe owning only one of the breeds is the best for your animal.

Calia

I think there's a difference between getting along with a dog at the dog park and getting along with a dog they're living with. Like what was mentioned, huskies can be rude players and often times I've heard that shibas don't tolerate rudeness, but here I have both living together wonderfully. So long as both dogs are properly introduced, given plenty of time to get used to each other and are regulated during play sessions (time out for the dog that starts in) then there is a pretty good chance that both dogs will get along nicely.

BradA1878

I can think of a few experiences I've had that support Tara's model, not just about Kai but about the medium sized NK in general. But, on the flip, I can also think of some examples that break Tara's model too.

I have noticed that our medium sized NK tend to be rather "snooty" toward other spitz breeds, especially huskies and malamutes. I don't really have any thoughts on the reason for this. I mean, our medium sized NK can also be a little "snooty" toward other small-medium NK... so, maybe they are just "snooty" toward other spitzies in general. I've always just brushed it off as NK being snobs. lol

Then there is my experience with our Akita and Kai, which we never had issues between. Same applies to our Shikoku and Akita, and Shikoku and Kai... We had one issue between Fuji and Ahi once, but one issue out of 3 years doesn't really strike me as being a big deal.

On hikes or at parks, our NK tend to dislike any dog that shows above-average interest in them. This goes for all of our NK not just our Kai. Our NK will "correct" a dog for being too interested in them, even if, from my perspective, it seems like that other dog is being friendly. So, I think this falls in-line with Tara's "strict rules of conduct" thought on the Kai.

Here at our house, the things that will piss any of the Kai off are:
1) Being surprisingly woken up (never wake a sleeping Kai),
2) Not respecting a Kai's space,
3) Attempting to take a Kai's food w/o proper protocol.

Those three things are guaranteed to piss off one of our Kai Ken. I'd say those apply to the Shikoku too, but our Shikoku may just get mad at another dog for looking at them from across the room in the wrong way, or walking to close to their personal area, or simply existing. (yes, I am saying shikoku can be quarrelsome dogs, at least our 2 are).

What I am trying to get at here is I think a lot of it comes down to a Kai's personal space and how the other dog respects it. Luytiy and Kona have friction due to Luytiy not respecting Kona's personal space. does this mean that can't exist together? No, not at all. It just means we (Jen and I) have to be a bit more diligent in our management of them (like keeping them together in a large area and not a small one).

I'd guess that a Kai Ken and an AA would require similar management, especially if the AA didn't respect the Kai Ken's space. Raising a Kai pup with an AA adult would probably go ok as the pup would learn the ways of the AA and the AA would see the pup as fragile, and therefore respect his space as the pup grew older. That's just a guess tho.

Kibou lives with an elderly AA, and they do great together... but Kibou was also a very laid-back and soft Kai Ken.

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I have a real hard time subscribing to this "primitive dog" social concept. I don't agree that they have some special "primitive" communication ability that other "less primitive" breeds don't posses. I think that's silly talk.

I've had husky people argue that to me over and over again and I've never heard any argument that convinced me their "primitive breed" has some special wolf-like communication skill. I've also never experienced it, if anything I've experienced the opposite - I've seen plenty of nutty huskies who could NOT make it in a social environment.

Here is where the concept breaks down for me...

Huskies were selected to run in groups and pull sleds. They were expected to be social and work as a team. Any dog that showed an unwanted level of aggression (toward dogs or humans) was culled (usually shot) by the breeder/musher. The mushing dogs were constantly swapped from group to group often working with dogs that they had never worked with before. They were also transient and never had a solid "base". Over time this produced a high energy breed, that loves to run in a group, has very little territorial instinct, and is highly social with other dogs.

Wolves, on the other hand, didn't go through that selection process. Wolves went through natural selection. This produced and animal that is highly territorial, aggressive toward unknown wolves, and low energy.

To me, looking at this logically, huskies were selected to be the exact opposite of wolves... So how did this magical "primitive" social quality slip through those 100s of years of unnatural selection that the husky went trough? And why does a breed like the Beagle, who was also selected to work in groups and show little aggression toward each other, not have this "primitive" social quality? Because huskies look like wolves? Does their looks somehow give them this "primitive" social gift?

If anything, I'd argue that these breed who where selected to be more social than wolves are evolutionarily augmented (socially) from the wolf. They are more evolved... which would make them less primitive than a non-social breed.

I apply this same logic to the Kai Ken, which is a breed that was selected to hunt in teams and is said to be the only NK breed that is not predisposed for canine aggression.

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ayk

I think the term primitive is the wrong adjective to describe a Siberian husky's play too, but I think they do tend to favor a certain play style that would upset other dogs/breeds. The ones I've seen at a UKC dog show were using "I'm going to kill you" vocalizations and lots of pinning. The play style was described as "normal" according to the regulars at the dog show, but for me used to hearing "Jindo talk", I was tensing for a full fledge fight - which didn't occur.

For communication differences, I think the greatest chances of a miscommunication and hence a fight could be between a breed that puts a lot of emphasis on slight communications, like hard stares with little growlings, with a breed that is bred to have a natural hard eye as default.

How have people's experience been with a NK meeting a hard-eyed border collie or cattle dog?

baanton

I am not sure what is meant by a "hard-eye". However, I can say one of the very few dogs ever that Josephine, our Kai, has reacted to with immediate aggression (and returned in kind by the other dog) is a docile friendly mild-mannered Australian cattle dog (or maybe called a "blue heeler"?) owned by my brother. In fact, the encounter was so bad and the dogs so unrelenting with one another that he had to go stay with another brother of mine when he visited us at our farm a year ago or so. Another dog that has created similar reaction is a pit bull belonging to a neighbor who recently moved in. In fact, we had to escort Josephine home from our block party and not let her return until Lucy, the other dog, went home. Not really sure what that is all about, but in both cases the dogs are female, about her same age. It is hard to say the blockparty has anything to do with "territory", but I guess Josephine maybe thinks she "owns the hood"???

Brego_mellon_nin

@tjbart17
Tara, I am not by any means trying to disregard your experiences, but I do believe that an AA and a kai can live peacefully in the same home. My AA will probably be a good 6 months old (depending on when a suitable kai is available) when I get my kai puppy, and so they will grow up together. AAs are a spitzbreed as well and knows to some extend the nihon ken "rules of conduct", though they have more influence from other breeds. I will supervise any playtime and I will ofcourse not toss the kai or the AA out to the right, if it happens not to work out. I will take the consequences and create an environment they can both thrive in.

But I don't agree with you as far as the "this can never work" issue goes, I'm sorry...

@Brada1878
Thanks for sharing your experiences with this issue.

I will watch the personal space of the kai

JessicaRabbit

I do not have a Kai. But I have a Shikoku. And my Shikoku is a trouble making punk ass. I don't have an AA but I have a JA. My JA is particularly social with new dogs. Not aggressive by any means but not social. My Shikoku torments him regularly and he not only tolerates it but sometimes comes to get more.

I am fairly confident that if I told the group here that I was considering getting a female pit bull, a female Shikoku and a male Akita I would be told from every direction how bad an idea it is. But plain and simple, a well socialized friendly dog can always surprise us.
Just yesterday I hung out with a pug and a JRT puppy a pairing that I would have said was a recipe for disaster. But it worked.

I think with any grouping management and chemistry are the keys and the latter you simply cannot predict.

baanton

Well said, Jessica... Seems dogs are a lot like people in that regard... So far people have only been discussing dogs living in "harmonious community" or not. I have mentioned this before, but for those new to the forum: Prior to Josephine, we had a rott/husky/lab (and probably a bit of German Shepherd) mix named Joe. At the time we found him (7-8 weeks old, 5 lbs.) we also had a white New Zealand bunny (about 12-15 lbs.). Joe adored the bunny from the moment they met, would follow her around through her amazing set of tunnels, etc. that she had on the screen porc. It seemed the feeling was mutual from the bunny's standpoint through her interactions with him (no fear, approaching him to "play", etc.). This adoration continued all through their life together, and it was truly amazing to see the two of them, usually predator/prey, having a fun time interacting, Joe licking her ears and giving her doggie kisses; especially when Joe became full-grown (about 75 lbs.). Sadly, Snowball the bunny died at about 3 years old, and Joe seemed very puzzled: for a time after her death we would see him looking around for his friend on the screen porch. Perhaps it was the introduction when he was so young, and her "mothering"/nurturing instinct?

Brego_mellon_nin

@JessicaRabbit
I fully agree with you. Chemistry is a very important player in this "game".

As I said earlier I am already aware of the possible issues and I am able to prevent (or act to prevent) these issues and since I get both from a young age, I am fairly certain have a good chance of making it work. And if not, I will take the consequences.

TheWalrus

To get back to the original question in the thread, I don't know about mushing, but my dogs get their exercise every day running along with me on my bicycle. I used to walk them all at the same time, but having 3 hunting NK suddenly coming across fresh cat scent while pulling you is a recipe for disaster. I think if I had raised them 'mushing' from when they were young, and discouraged all hunting behavior, there's a possibility this would work better.

Of my three dogs though, Baron is the only one who really gets into it. When he gets going he just wants to run more and faster, and he loves to pull. Momo likes the running too, but she's more interested in looking for cats. Haru just tolerates the running along.

Brego_mellon_nin

Oh I think I'd kinda expect to be pulled off the road and into the bushes sometimes, but mostly in the beginning. If my dogs get used to, and enjoy mushing (though not as "hardcore" as huskies and malamutes) I have a hunch they will get better, also because I will not encourage hunting behavior, as it is not something I wish to do. It's in their nature so I'll live with it, but it will not be part of my training.

kwyld

Brego_mellon_nin - I think Dave said it best in his post. Really with the proper training skills you can teach your dog to do anything you want it to, it might not be as fast or efficient as another breed, but they can do it. I think my Kai Kohji would love to pull a sled or cart, I taught him to pull me on my bike. I think Peggy sleds with her NK down in Ohio.

BTW regarding some of the posts about Kais and other dogs, Kohji got along with the Border Collie I used to have better than any other dog he's ever been around. This is because that dog had wonderful play skills. They mirrored each other during play and were both respectful of each other's space and movements. That is the key to any two dogs of any breed communicating through play properly.