What color is this Shikoku considered?

Koda&Mugen

I've seen sites that say there are sesame, black & tan, and cream Shikokus (like Shibas), but this seems to be the most prevalent color of a Shikoku and it's the one I want:





Thanks a lot.

BradA1878

That's Ahi, she's a Black Sesame.

In Shikoku Ken, there are Black Sesame, and Red Sesame and then there is a "true" Sesame which is a mid point between the Red Sesame and the Black Sesame.

In some of the pics above Ahi was very dark, this pic is more typical of her color...



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BradA1878

This one may even be more accurate...



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TheWalrus

Actually kuro-goma (black sesame) is not the prevalent color in the breed. That order would be regular sesame, red sesame, black sesame, and black. Of course you have the odd non-standard color (like white or cream) thrown in there. It seems almost everyone overseas wants a kuro-goma!

I heard an interesting theory last week that there originally was no kuro-goma in the Shikoku, and that some people believe it's leftover genetic material from an outcross. Then again some say that there are black Shikoku, so having kuro-goma is a perfectly natural genetic variation.

I have no idea if any of this is actually true, and of course there's really no way of anyone proving anything one way or the other. It is kind of interesting to hear old timers suddenly blurt out stuff like this though.

Edgewood

...And then there's my young Shikoku who was registered red sesame but is more a kuro-goma instead (IMHO)





As a puppy, she was much redder and looked lighter. Here she is with my red sesame male (who does have black hairs)

ayk

So in the first saying, where there were no kuro-goma originally in the Shikoku, they still had black/tan Shikoku and accepted them? Or there were only red sesames and regular sesames?

okiron

"It seems almost everyone overseas wants a kuro-goma!"

I seriously think Ahi has a lot to do with that.

BradA1878

Too bad Ahi is pretty far of the standard. lol Too big, strange ear set (for a "typie" shikoku), kinda long in the body. I swear she has a distant-close Kishu relative or something. Ahi's like 50lbs! When Peggy met her she said "This is the biggest Shikoku I've ever seen".

She takes a nice picture tho, huh? ]

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BradA1878

@Edgewood - Sachi looks great, btw.

tjbart17

Does anyone have a pic of a black Shikoku?

dlroberts

http://www.nihonken.org/forum/discussion/3386/x/p1#Item_18 There are a whole bunch in that thread Tara. :-)

TheWalrus

tjbart17

oh ok. See I would call that a B&T like a Shiba. I thought you meant all black Shikoku. I got confused.

ayk

I think in Japanese writings, it's common to refer to black/tans as blacks.

I sometimes see that in Korean too, with the only hint that they're referring to a black/tan by a comment about the eyespots. They now call the black/tan color "4 eyes", following either the Tibetan or Mongolian naming convention for a black/tan guardian.

TheWalrus

@ayk Well when they wrote the NK standard, apparently it was pretty much written around the Shikoku (what I've heard anyway). Kuro-goma is in there, so there must have been some around. I think the rumor is just that it's a color that came about because of breeding with some western breed. But yeah, they had black (B/T) in the original Shikoku. In fact B/T was prevalent in the Hongawa line, so still pops up a lot.

stiiina

Too bad the black and tan is not in the standard, they look wonderful.

sukoshi_mom

Like the B/T Shikoku--but then I have a B/T Shiba. The one in the 10/13/10 picture from the Walrus is a lovely looking dog. Sukoshi and I have found that the "four eyes" characteristic may be disconcerting to other dogs. Several of the dogs at the dog park will bark incessantly at Sukoshi (who is rather mellow). The only thing we can figure out is that maybe the eye spots bother the other dogs. They don't do the same thing with the red Shibas.

TheWalrus

@stiiina actually B/T is in the Shikoku standard. It's just difficult for them to show well, but I've heard of a few that have actually taken best in class.

stiiina

Shigeru - in which standard the B/T is allowed? I have just checked FCI standard for shikoku and there is only sesame, black sesame and red sesame color, no black and tan.

Calia

LoL Shigeru, it's like the shiba, very hard to win with a B/T thus why most people stick with the reds.

TheWalrus

@stiiina you're right about the FCI standard. I think I'm going to talk with the JKC and FCI soon. Seriously. They need to sort some stuff out. They've also got some issues on sizing, with the Kai stated as being larger than the Kishu. I'll take it up with Nippo.

jikjak

i really like those first few shots of ahi. the shikoku looks so nice with that wolfish coloring!
do they ever come out in a lighter shade of grey?
i saw some pics before of the one at koyote kennels and that dog looked really nice as well.

stiiina

I also wish the standards were the same - well I'm in for the FCI to recognize B/T color )). Specially if they are anyway used in breeding to improve the pigmentation, why not allow that color in the standard.
Not to mention they are cute )