Sexual Dimorphism

edited October 2010 in General
I didn't want to steal Shigeru's thread on the amazing Kais, but I wanted to look into Ayk's question about dimorphism.

To use as an example I have taken pics of Koda and Tora. (Stacey I hope you don't mind.) But they are littermates of opposite sex who at times look a lot alike (no dimorphism to me), but can also have very different masculine/feminine features. Here are some pics to compare.

Side shots. Can you tell which is which?
profiles

heads

Koda-Tora Side Compare

And full bodies. I tried to pick out pics of them at about the same age, and above 9 months old. Koda did look a little bit more feminine before that age. There is a pic of Koda at 5 mos. old that makes him look just as feminine as Tora in this shot. They look like twins. But I think as they get older, and full shots you can clearly see the dimorphism between the two.

koda-tora full

Comments

  • Second part to this and it only applies to Kais. There are two types of Kais, bear and fox. I would think that the bear type would have more differences between males/females than fox types. But anyone please correct me if I'm wrong.
  • Age may be a factor on how different a male may appear from a female. Wasn't Koda neutered early too? That could also be a factor.

    My guess is that in the second row of head shots, the dog on the left is the female, Tora?
  • All lefts are Koda. Lol. He was neutered young though. I wanted to control testosterone young since Koda is in training.
  • Sexual dimorphism is part of the NK standard, so you won't see many doggy-bitches or bitchy-dogs being bred.

    So is that Koda pictures on the left, and Tora on the right?

    Just a sample of two pups out of the same litter.

    Male pic 1

    Female 2 #2

    I'll see if I can get some better comparison pictures this weekend.
  • Is the first one the girl?

    I can see the difference between Tora and Koda and Koda and Maymay definitely. Remember I've never met Tora in person. It easier in person with my two. Mainly I see the difference in head on shots like that last one. Side shots the look the same. They have the same profile but Tora's face is more narrow and definitely feminine. Koda gas a block man head. He looks very manly in person.
  • aykayk
    edited October 2010
    The nearly all-black pup is a male. The one with more pronounced brindle is a female. (Had to go to the flickr website to check.)

    It's kind of hard to tell, but the nearly all-black pup seems to have a broader muzzle and more of a forehead. Spacing between the ears might also be wider?
  • Isn't this true of Shibas too? I'm lazy by not going to look up the standard right now, but I thought bitches were supposed to be more...feminine looking? thinner, more delicate looking head/muzzle?

    My male and female definately look different in the head shape, and I can usually tell by glancing at the head if a Shiba is male or female....(doesn't always work, though, esp. with less well bred Shibas).
  • edited October 2010
    Males tend to have larger heads, broad/strong muzzles, be larger and more muscular, deeper wider fully formed chests, and just all around exude masculinity. I took a bunch of pictures today to try to give everyone a look at more males/females.

    3 Kishu females

    Kishu Female
    Kishu Female
    Kishu Female

    3 Kishu males

    Kishu Male
    Ryu 2
    Kishu Male 1

    Shikoku females

    Shikoku Female
    Maki 2
    Shikoku Female

    Shikoku males

    Shikoku Male
    Shikoku Male
    DSC_0255

    Obviously no dog is perfect, but in general females should have a feminine look to them, and males masculine. In my opinion the kuro-goma male was a little thin boned, and thin muzzled, but he still looked like a male. Maki, the dark goma Shikoku female, has a pretty strong face that could be construed as looking a little bit masculine.
  • One thing about the difference in Kai males vs. females is the size (height). On average, they really have a pretty substantial size difference. I dunno what the standard for height is in the KKA, but for FCI it's:

    Dogs 53 cm (approx. 20-21 inches)
    Bitches 48 cm (approx. 18-19 inches)
    *There is a tolerance of + 3 cm.

    Mochi is 17 inches and Kona is 21 inches, but both are still within the standard. So 4 inches of difference. That's a pretty huge difference in one breed. For Shikoku it's like a 2 inch difference allowed from male to female. So in Kai, with such a big range between the males and females, and with the type variation too, males and females can barely resemble the same breed.

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  • aykayk
    edited October 2010
    Actually, the conversion is off a bit.

    Males 50 cm (19.7 in) to 56 cm (22.0 in)
    Females 45 cm (17.7 in) to 51 cm (20.1 in)

    Mochi would be under standard per the FCI.

    One thing to factor in when using Japanese heights is that they measure height differently than in the US. (I don't know about the FCI way.) Dogs are wicketed at the withers (highest point of the shoulders) in the US, but NIPPO style is to measure right behind the withers.



    edit: Sorry if I come off as being nitpicky. I think working too many hours in a lab brings out the detail-obsessive monster in me.
  • ha ha ha. I thought it was 21.5 inches. :-) None of the standards match anyways.
  • Here's a copy of the different Kai height standards that was posted by Shigeru before:


    FCI:
    -Size: Dogs 53cm (20.9 inches) Bitches 48cm (18.9 inches) with a tolerance of +/-3cm (1.2 inches)
    -Weight: Couldn't find a specified weight

    UKC:
    -Size: Dogs 18½ to 22 inches (47.5-55.9cm) Bitches 17½ to 20 inches (44.5-50.8cm) with a tolerance of +/-half and inch (1.3cm)
    -Weight: 25 to 55 pounds (11.3-24.9kg)

    JKC:
    -Size: Dogs 50cm (19.7 inches) Bitches 45cm (17.7 inches) with a tolerance of +/-3cm (1.2 inches)
    -Weight: Couldn't find a specified weight

    Nippo:
    -Size: Dogs 52cm (20.5 inches) Bitches 49cm (19.3 inches) with a tolerance of +/-3cm (1.2 inches)
    -Weight: Dogs 17-23kg (37.4-50.7 pounds) Bitches 15-18kg (33-39.6 pounds)

    Aigokai:
    -Size: 40-50cm (15.7 inches - 19.7 inches)
    -Weight: 11.25-22.5kg (24.8-49.6 pounds) (the decimal points are due to the fact that the weight measurements are old Japanese measurements, 3 'kan'- 6'kan' is the standard)


  • No worries detail-obsessive monster.

    For the record tho, I did pull those stats directly from the FCI Kai Ken PDF: http://www.yamabushikennel.org/kai_standards_FCI.pdf

    I would hope Mochi would be too small, she is really small... but looking at KKA's standards she is an ok size. 15.7 inches is really small.

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