Kibble & RAW Rotation? / Pre-made RAW vs Home-made RAW ----Update.

Sangmort

Hope you all don't mind a question

Wraith has been on pre-made RAW + Raw Meaty Bones pretty much since we got him.

Anyway, Wraith is eating a LOT now & it's costing us about $100 a week just to feed him the pre-made raw. [ of course, the Raw Meaty Bones are another cost, but a minor one ] Obviously, this cost is going to continue to go up as he inevitably gets bigger.

I LOVE RAW, & what it does for him, but it's getting reaaaaaaaally pricey. So, I need some advice.


Any of you guys do a RAW & Kibble Rotation?

[ like, one week RAW, next week kibble, or 2 weeks raw, 2 weeks kibble ]

Would a RAW / Kibble rotation be OK for him healthwise? If not, how about a home-made RAW diet? [ we have a chest freezer now so I can buy in bulk! ]

Any links to info / articles & your experiences & advice would be much appreciated! Also, if any one knows places online that sell RAW at a discount, please share. Our local store is in a very high-end town [ think, minimum 4million dollar+ houses ] hence the premium cost we pay for the pre-made RAW. ~

shibamistress

I would go with homemade raw. Much cheaper.

I simply can't afford to do premade raw with three dogs, esp. with one that is growing so rapidly he'd eat me out of house and home pretty fast. I don't do a rotation, but I buy chicken cheaply. Mostly I feed chicken necks and backs, but I also supplement with whatever chicken is on sale at the grocery store (mostly thighs) and anything else that is under a dollar a pound. (The backs are 69cents a pound where I get them, and I buy a month's worth at a time). This meant that even when I had a full grown GSD, I was feeding my dogs for under $100 a month (which could include additives like seameal, salmon oil, eggs, etc).

You can probably do it yourself cheaper, as long as you have a freezer to store stuff in!

Sangmort

That's kind of my point Lisa. $400 a month to feed a 34lbs dog...when he gets to 70lbs [ which is less than both his mum & dad weigh ] it'll be $800 a month, just to feed him! lol Bri & I also need to eat

The only thing I'm worried about when doing a homemade RAW diet, is getting the right nutritional requirements He's still a young pup with a lot of growing & filling out to do, I don't want to cause harm by not giving him the right things to eat.

I can't seem to find the percentages of what to feed online... [ organ meat, vegetables, bone, etc. ] ~

kwyld

I was rotating raw and kibble for awhile, but right now they're finishing a bag of Orijen. I was buying Aunt Jeni's premade raw and feeding that to them for a 2 or 3 week period, then switching back to kibble for a few weeks. I was also buying The Honest Kitchen and mixing in Aunt Jeni's and raw eggs. My dogs have never had any issues with changing foods so often and I've been doing it for years.

It is super expensive to buy premade, I think I fed News raw the first 2 weeks I had him then realized I could never afford to continue that.

tjbart17

Koda gets kibble when he goes to his program. This is 2-3 days per week. He gets fed one meal there, because he is not an early morning eater, and they won't do raw. Since he has kibble in the morning, I do not give him raw at night. He sticks to the kibble, Acana.

If you are going to mix it up, then they have to have I believe 12 hours before their next meal can be switched up so don't do one day raw and kibble.

As far as bones. Don't get them from the dog store. Go to a butcher or a BBQ place that butcher's their own meat. I go to a place down the street, and a whole femur cut up is $7. This gives me about 12 bones.

I also go to a raw co-op where meat can be exchanged. This saves money and gives Koda a variety. I only do visitor's pass, so I can only visit once a month. It's a drive though in SF.

Then, I purchased a meat grinder that goes onto my Kitchenaid. I use this to do homemade raw that is less expensive than the premade, but I do do premade when I get lazy.

See if there are any raw co-ops in your area. Usually pet boutiques or hollistic vets would know. I have come to realize that other owners who feed raw have really hooked me up. They have also gotten me meat from hunters for free as well, like venison which Koda loves. There is always support within a community, so find one close to you.

shibamistress

Oooh, Tara, I'm thinking of getting a grinder....But since I don't have a kitchenaid it will have to be something else. I love the idea of the raw co-ops, but suspect they are not available everywhere....

Re: nutritional requirements: I understand the worry, but I also think it is less....difficult...that it seems. My behavioralist kind of looked askance at what I feed, and said she would be too worried about a balanced diet to do it herself. She has got me thinking about going back to the raw feeding forums to get more info. (when I started feeding raw, backs and necks were recommended by some, because I followed a Billinghurst model which suggested quite a bit of bone and suggests using necks/backs/wings, but I know not everyone goes with that, and I should brush up on the nutritional info. myself). That said, my Shibas (5 and 6) have eaten this way since they were puppies and are really healthy. My GSD was not that healthy, but he had serious problems before I got him as a rescue, and the diet did improve his health. So my feeling is that it's not actually that hard to get it right.

Like I said, I give the puppy a bit more meat and less bone, both because he is only just getting his adult teeth and had trouble chewing the bones before this point, and because I think he's growing and could use the extra meat. Billinghurst is roughly 60/40 (60 percent RMBs and 40 percent veggies/etc) and I know I don't give my dogs 40 percent other foods....I'd say I'm probably 80/20 or so. None of them particularly like vegetables, though they will eat potatoes/sweet potatoes and Bel and Oskar will eat carrots. (Toby will not). They get some dairy and eggs too.

Oh and fish! They love fish! But it's usually canned (sardines or jack mackeral) though I buy cheap fish from the Asian market occasionally. We do give them pork feet or ears sometimes and occasionally tripe too.

JessicaRabbit

Osy how much are you feeding Wraith?
I spend $120 every 10 days to feed all three of my dogs. And remember Hilo is 80lbs. Are you doing Primal patties or nuggets. The patties art considerably less expensive. Like half as much. We were spending the same amount every five days when we did nuggets.

BradA1878

We used to feed grain-free kibble (Acana or Orijen) in the AM and RAW at night to Mochi and Loa and they did great.

ayk

I don't know much about raw, but I came across a warning on a genetics list that grinding raw doesn't allow a pregnant female to pick and choose what they need. For instance, too much calcium ground up in raw and fed to a pregnant female causes uterine inertia (lack of contractions?) during whelping. This is supposed to not happen if the pieces are intact though?

the_november_rain

The Primal 5lb chubs are even cheaper then the patties and nuggets. You pay extra for the meat to be packaged in small serving sizes. I have to special order chubs at my store. I checked out Primal's selection online, then I had the store owners ask their distributors if they carry them, they did. So now I spend about $80-$94 a month (depends on the meat type) for one dog and two cats (equals two medium-sized dogs), no kibble. Your store should be more then willing if they want business.

About your store having premium prices, maybe you should check out another pet store. I used to have to drive 40 minutes one way to pick up Primal in another state, cause they were the closest to carry Primal. I would stock up for one month, so I wasn't making the trip constantly. Recently I was able to convince a local store to order Primal for me. She was against raw food that wasn't high pressure pasteurization. But even if Nature's Variety is HPP now my pets still don't like it as much.

Sangmort

Thanks for all the advice and input guys!

Jessica - He goes through almost two of the 8lb patty bags in a week. Crazy, I know! [ he's a VERY active pup ] Each bag is about $45 & that's just for the cheaper chicken & beef formulas. The Venison / Duck / Pheasant etc. formulas are considerably more expensive. We got venison once & it was $65 for one bag before tax! $120 every 10 days to feed three dogs RAW would be HEAVEN for us lol

Jessika - Thanks! I'll check out the chubs & see if that's any better. Re: Other store. The next closest store that sells Primal is 40 minutes away & in the OTHER high-end part of town. [ Shaq use to have a house there lol ] So the prices aren't much better. There is a holistic vet an hour away that sells it, I'll check them out. [ I've been considering making an appointment there anyway, would like to compare to my "normal" vet ]

Looks like I've got to make a lot of phonecalls & start pricing out places lol ~

JessicaRabbit

Jeepers that is about $10-$20 more per bag than what I am paying. Beef and lamb are about $32 and Venison was $45. I think the most expensive for me is quail and that is $56 (which we don't buy).

I also get a %10 discount for buying by the case.

tjbart17

Yeah Osy you are being charged an arm and a leg for Primal. Whole Foods here in Walnut Creek sells it for those prices. I go to Pet Food Express and buy it for I think around $35. Maybe a bit less since they have raised taxes. That still messes me up a bit. You can go to Primal's website and check for local dealers. Maybe give a few a call to see if it's cheaper somewhere else. I do not buy bones there though. Too expensive. I think for 2 two-inch cow femur bones it's $9.95, that's ridiculous. I think Venison bones are like $15.

I know a woman with a Newfie who buys in bulk online and has a freezer in her garage for her dog's raw food. She says it saves her money. I have a little free standing freezer for Koda, but it's not big. Just fits food and bones, but is triple the size of my small freezer. If I do get the opportunity to stock up, like my uncle shoots a deer, I take it.

PS just Googled Primal raw food and the prices are all over the board. Definitely call another vendor.

Sangmort

I'm starting to feel better. I thought I was going crazy, was beginning to wonder how "normal" people with multiple dogs can afford to feed RAW at these prices! [ I mean, feeding Wraith at these prices is hard enough...if we continued on to when he got bigger and doubles in size, his food is creeping really close to the price of our mortgage! lol ]

I'm wondering if there's any stores that sell it that aren't listed on Primal's website. As the ones that ARE listed are all the "million dollar houses" areas & thus far, are not cheap at all. [ maybe $4 less then what I pay locally, not worth the gas money to go get it from there ]

We don't buy Primal bones, just regular chicken thighs, wings, etc. etc. whatever's on sale at the week. [ same stuff we get for ourselves ] The primal bone prices are nuts, & IMHO, don't have enough meat on them to make it worth it. lol [ they also look weird...like, they're not real ]

Maybe I can see about getting a deal if I buy in bulk. Our chest freezer is 7cubicft & I got it to store all the animal's food in. [ we have the snake food in there too ] We definitely have the space to store more.

Why do all the pet boutiques have to open in the expensive areas? Us poor people want to feed our pets good too! lol ~

Saya

Saya is on full raw she gets kibble for treats when training though.

Saya is prey modal raw guideline is 80%meat/ 10% bone/ 5% liver/ 5% other secreting organ like kidney, spleen, pancreas, thymus, etc. It's just that a guideline. Sometimes I feed a bit above 10% bone or a tiny bit below Saya seems to do fine with one edible bone a week..

My raw diet is a bit different than raw it doesn't require fruits or veggies. Saya does gets cooked carrots, sweet potatoes, and fruits like apples, blue berries, and mango when I'm having it, but most times she doesn't want them. She probably gets it once a month or so..

This thread on dogster raw forum has some links on raw feeding
http://www.dogster.com/forums/Raw_Food_Diet/thread/431875

Tikka's owner made a spread sheet for raw feeders you enter dogs weight and it'll tell how much meat, bone and organ to feed for what %
http://www.dogster.com/forums/Raw_Food_Diet/thread/491589

Most people say to feed at 2% or 3% and go by body condition loosing some weight then up it gaining then lower it.. The premade food should have directions though.

Right now only thing that is pre-measured is Saya's organs.

Bella my parent's boxer gets kibble in morning and a chicken quarter and some meat once or twice a week.

Nutrition wise I think Saya is pretty balanced out she gets a RMB once a week sometimes twice and she gets meat and organs the rest. She also gets chicken feet for natural source of glucosamine and condrotine the feet keep her firm too..

Saya has had normal poop pretty much except for when she first started it was a little loose and a bit because she got into something.

If you do it yourself raw it's recommended to start with chicken and after a few weeks slowly introduce a organ in tiny pieces organs are pretty rich..

Don't feed meat that's been enhanced by broth, salt and things like that might cause loose poop.

I've gotten 10lb or so of free meat off of craigs list it was freezerburned pork, beef deer, and a deer heart or a beef heart not sure.

Craigs list or kijiji can be a source for free or cheap meat especially with hunters starting the deer season they'll be getting rid of their freezer burned deer meat.

Took me a couple weeks, but I got a bite I had to take my ad down since I share the freezer which are my parent's..

I feed Saya chicken quarters, thighs, legs, breasts, lamb ribs, pork ribs, and I've given her a whole cornish hen once I stuffed it with ground bison and she loved it took her a week to eat it..

Dog wraith's size a chicken quarter should be good or half a chicken and you can trade for it once the pups eaten enough.

Bella our 50lb boxer can handle chicken quarters I've been feeding the quarters frozen for Bella takes her a bit longer to eat it all..

I feed Saya mostly beef, pork, frozen raw mackerel, frozen smelt, and chicken for bone I also sometimes get lamb shanks, lamb ribs, or ground lamb, or bison Saya loved the bison roast I bought her, and I get odd things like lamb tongue, pork and beef tongue yummy! Saya loved the lamb tongue the most..

My local meat possessor has beef heart at a good price 99C lb. Though heart is pretty rich so it's best to feed a little of it at a time and work up to it. Saya can handle a whole meal of heart now.

Haretoday.com has some yummy stuff coarse the shipping is pretty high..

Maybe try local ethnic markets? The local Asian market near me has a good price on frozen mackerel..

I'm not part of any co ops. so can't help on that.

Maybe you can do half kibble and half raw and sometimes supplement with a chicken quarter or things like chicken heart and gizzards..?

Good luck on things.

Sangmort

Thanks a TON Nicole! That was exactly some of the stuff I was looking for! ~

adamallstar

Sangmort, Where do you live?

We've got a raw food co-op in Austin and I calculated on my last order that I'm actually spending less on raw than what most people would pay for Iams.

If aren't lucky enough to have a co-op in the area, my best suggestion to save money is to be resourceful. I keep a list on my phone of meat prices from the co-op and from online suppliers. If I'm at the grocery store, I'll check out the meat aisle (which I still find odd considering I'm a vegetarian) and I'll stock up if there is a good sale going on. Asian markets are a great place to get organs and more unique items and organs that the big name stores don't carry.

Having a deep freezer also helps out big time to stock up whenever there is a sale.

Even with calculating in the electricity cost to run the freezer, you can't beat the quality of the food of a DIY raw food diet since you get to pick everything out!

Good luck!

Sangmort

Ok guys, an update.


We started feeding Wraith Acana about a week ago. We hated to do it, but $70 for a 30lbs bag, we figured, wasn't too bad.


EXCEPT for the fact that my dog REEKS now. Seriously. He STINKS!!!!! LOL & not in the "light doggy odor" normal kind of way, but in the "OMG I'M GOING TO PUKE!!!" kind of way. On top of that, he poops 4x a day, is downing more water then I can imagine, & consequently, having to go pee constantly.

Needless to say, I am NOT happy with kibble!!! Talk about being spoiled by RAW!! lol


So...I set out to do a homemade raw-diet. My first stop was my father, who is King of finding things at a discount. He pointed me out to the local Produce mart which is apparently...also a butcher!!! Since the place is called "Kissimmee Produce" I didn't think they sold meat, & being I don't buy fruits I never went in. Well, we went there & got Mr. Wraith 30 days worth of food for $30!!!! How fucking amazing is that?! lol

When we got home, we sorted all the meat into zip-lock bags with his name on it. One day = one ziplock bag. This way, we just pull one bag out the night before from the chest freezer & stick into the fridge.

Picked up chicken thighs, gizzards, beef liver, beef heart, beef tripe...we would've browsed more & got some more stuff but the place was so packed we could barely walk around.

Anyway, we're happy, & I'm sure Wraith's going to be happy. This route ended up being 1. Cheaper then both Kibble & Pre-Made Raw & 2. Healthy!

Thanks for ALL the advice guys!!!! I'm a happy camper again ~

tjbart17

That's sweet! I have never had a smell issue with Acana, but Kais tend not to smell like dogs anyways.

I'm really glad that you are trying new things and saving $$. Local places are the best! Would they cut up femurs (?sp) for you there to get some nice bones?

okiron

Hey Osy (and everyone else who feeds raw) ever have an issue where the dog will think all raw meat is "their food"? I know with my cats since I gave them some chicken they think all chicken is for them now.

Sangmort

Tara - I think the issue of "smell" is there by the fact that Wraith is a "shepherd" LOL So, kind of stinky to begin with With the kibble or even wet food it seems to be really intensified. When on RAW, he only has a light "wet dog smell" when he gets wet. The rest of the time, you don't smell anything.

I'm sure they could tho! I just have to go there on a day they're less busy. [ IE: NOT sunday evening lol ]


Rina - For us, yes. When I'm cooking in the kitchen Wraith keeps offering "sits" & whines thinking it's "his" food lol ~

tjbart17

You can try to call and order some. They keep their teeth so clean, and gives you some time away from the pup. Better than a stuffed kong in my book.

Sangmort

Good idea!

Any worry of the dogs breaking their teeth on them tho? Wraith just finished getting all his adult teeth in, I'd hate to see them ruined lol ~

shibamistress

Glad you found a good meat supply for Wraith! I really believe it is better to do it yourself than buy the premade stuff, which is simply too expensive! Its not hard to do it yourself, and yes, is pretty cost effective!

And I know what you mean about the shepherd smell...when my GSD ate kibble, before we went to raw (or if he was kenneled) he'd just reek! It was awful, but the worst smelling dog I had was a lab/chow cross--I think it was that lab coat. She was fine on raw, but if she ate anything else, ugh!

Rina--for awhile I wouldn't eat chicken myself, because I thought of it as dog food! *lol* I got over it though!
But yes, my dogs think all meat is for them!

Sangmort

Lisa, glad I'm not alone!!! I thought I was crazy becuase of how bad he smelled, but talking to some other people who have owned shepherds, they all said the same lol

Yeah, it's not that hard. Go to store, buy a large amount, sort into ziplock bags, toss into chest freezer. It took 20 minutes to sort it all Tho I imagine having a big freezer helps lol

Now, just waiting for him to de-funk...then I can get my office back! haha ~

tjbart17

I wouldn't worry about teeth breaking.

sunyata

That is great news, Osy!

Glad to hear that you have made friends with the butcher.

I wish I could get over handling meat so that I could feed my dogs raw. However, they do great on grain free (and chicken/pork free) kibble. Although, I am sure that if something changed with their current wellness on kibble, I would probably be able to quickly get over my squeamishness of handling meat to make sure my dogs were getting the nutrition that they need. (oh the things I do for my dogs!)

adamallstar

For your question about teeth breaking on bones, the general rule of thumb is never give them weight bearing bones of animals. If you're not sure or are trying something for the first time, keep an eye on them and use your best judgment. Might start out with something simple like a chicken drumstick and work your way up from there.

tjbart17

Another suggestion on where to get meat. I was driving past a mom and pop sausage maker in Hayward the other day. I saw the sign for Venison and Bear sausages made here and went in. I got some ground Venison for a great price!

Saya

Glad you got some deer for a good price Saya loves the stuff.

I just bought Saya some fish two whole gutted mackerel it still has it's head on it too, four Pacific Saury never fed Saya Saury before, but she loves the mackerel fillets so the mackerel should be a big hit..

Never given Saya a femur before, but she has had pigs feet, lamb shanks, and pork shoulder which has a bit of socket bone or something like that Saya can get some bone off of the shank and pork shoulder socket bone I take away once meat and I think she had enough bone don't want her to have too much..

She loves pigs feet she gets them split stores don't sell them whole.. =\

She eats about half of it and then she's done.

Pork hocks are good too they usually have some meat on it I think and the skin is tough to chew on not sure on the bone since it's weight bearing..

baanton

Well, I don't think we have intentionally fed anything raw to Josephine. My husband believes all the stuff he feeds should be cooked for his "Queen"... Anyway, with the deer season at hand, Josephine has lived on nothing but venison meat, venison bones, and venison organs for the last 10 days, frequently mixed with rice, but sometimes just the real deal with no starches. She is in heaven! Funny thing... whenever she gets venison it seems to really amp up her energy level. She is pretty high energy to begin with, but it really seems to get her going. Also, he feeds her chicken and rice, eggs, and sometimes things like beef or pork roast along with the gravy. We do have dry dog food of some sort but I do wonder why we think she would want it after all the other good stuff she gets. Often the cooked meats and rice, or eggs are mixed with the dry dog food. Sometimes she will eat just the dog food, especially if Frannie or another "threat" to her food bowl is present. Funny thing, though... when there's another animal here she will always leave several morsels for the other dog (or for the cat when my daughter's cats were here)... Anyway, I would say look for the venison if you can get it cheaply. I think it is in the Nihon Ken dog's heritage to eat this delicacy!