Do you think the AKC's CGC test promotes (reinforces) antisocial behavior in dogs?

BradA1878

I can't get over this, I mean its been awhile since we CGCed Loa, but I still am bothered by the test. In order for Loa to pass the final test, the "issues" we had to circumvent were not what I would consider to be "issues" at all - they were typical, and I'd even argue healthy, social behaviors.

For example, Loa always wanted to great the other dog when we did the "Reaction to another dog" part of the test (in practice). That's not allowed tho, per the rules of the test both dogs should ignore each other...

That's not normal, is it? I felt like we were training Loa to avoid dogs, and in my opinion that is training a dog to be antisocial.

Take a look at this item from the test...

Test 8: Reaction to another dog
This test demonstrates that the dog can behave politely around other dogs. Two handlers and their dogs approach each other from a distance of about 20 feet, stop, shake hands and exchange pleasantries, and continue on for about 10 feet. The dogs should show no more than casual interest in each other. Neither dog should go to the other dog or its handler.
http://www.akc.org/events/cgc/training_testing.cfm

Is that really how you would want your dog to react to other dogs?

Obviously over excitement is not a good thing, but that wasn't Loa... She was simply interested in saying "hi" to the other dog - a simple butt sniff... but that's not allowed!

----

ayk

Dunno. I've always made a distinction to my dogs on when they are on free time and when they are not. "Say Hi" and "Okay" vs. "Heel" or "Close". CGC testing for my male was not on free time.

okiron

Hmm, now that you mention it that's how I would expect a service dog to act while working, not an everyday dog just taking a stroll. I don't see the issue of showing interest.

shishiinu

Well all my dogs will fail that part of the test. I thought dogs were supposed to say Hi by sniffing each other and play. Why you want to train a dog not to greet other dogs is beyond me.

sunyata

I agree with Rina... I would think that would be more of a test for a service dog, versus a CGC dog...

I do think they should revisit that requirement. I would definitely want my dog to be interested in calmly saying hi. Being social is very much a part of being a good citizen.

BradA1878

I know this one Cane Corso who is off-the-charts aggressive (human and canine). This dog has been "Cesared" enough to where he just shuts down if on-lead with his handler. He goes into full-on avoidance (which is essentially what this test requires). He passed the CGC test with absolutely no issues, but I would NEVER EVER trust him in public or around one of my dogs (or humans).

So does he really deserve the title of Canine Good Citizen?

----

ayk

How did this Cane Corso pass the part of the test where he's left with a stranger with his handler out of sight?

Calia

Even though my sister's schipperke is super reactive and possessive over everything, I'm confident that he could pass the CGC test. Any dog who can be taught to follow the rules during the test could pass, even if they are normally nothing like what is expected of them.

From what I've heard, the CGC is a stepping stone to becoming a therapy dog. The therapy dog test is actually the CGC test with an additional test and the addition of crutches or other things that may be encountered in the hospital.

Also, each evaluator is different and interprets the tests differently. One evaluator may allow your dog to politely sniff the other dog, while another evaluator would fail your dog for even glancing towards the other dog. Same thing with walking on a loose leash, some evaluators will fail your dog if they walk in front of you even with the leash being loose, while others will pass the dog so long as leash appears loose.

tjbart17

This is funny that you bring this up. I always talk about this to my friends who ask me about Koda's test. Koda past with flying colors because they brought out a Pit. He had no interest in the Pit and simply ignored it after a very brief greeting. He had no desire to sniff it's butt, something that Koda always does off leash to gage the dog's emotions. This is something I usually would encourage, but on leash had to teach him not to do for the test. I would never stop him from sniffing anywhere else. So, essentially, I haven't enforced CGC behavior at home.

Koda past the CGC with flying colors, nothing phased him at all, but he was leashed to me. To him, I am protection while leashed. I also can constrain him. This is a bit different than allowing dogs to greet off leash. I think a true Good Citizen would be comfortable off leash with another dog.

If there had been an American Akita, Malamute, or Rott introduced Koda probably would have failed.

We had the opportunity of doing a photo shoot a few weeks ago. They were looking at Koda for an ad, and I was all for seeing how he would do in a room with cameras, lights, and tons of people. He did great! I was so impressed with how comfortable he was. Everyone loved him until we walked out and the dog after him was an American Akita. Total FAIL!!! He went bolistic on that poor dog. Koda didn't get chosen. My CGC'd dog was a total ass! We are now working on it with a Malamute puppy and two Rott puppies. Hopefully he can play with them until they grow up and not be such a jerk to them.

BradA1878

How did this Cane Corso pass the part of the test where he's left with a stranger with his handler out of sight?
>> Similar to what you wrote about your dogs, Ann. When this dog is on-lead and "queued" appropriately he is "working" and so he does as he has been trained. For this dog that training came in the form of painful leash corrections and alpha bullshit. Since he was still on-lead, he was still shutdown and "behaving" for fear of a painful leash correction from the handler. Many of those PPDs or Police dogs are trained to work with different handlers as was this dog. Whoever has the leash is his handler.

----

Edgewood

Hmm, I agree with Ayk. My dogs know when they are "working" and when they are not. Thus, I expect and insist that when they are working they need to ignore other dogs and not pay attention to them. It is a must that they ignore other dogs if you want to do any obedience competitions. That being said, when they are not "working" they are very interested in going up and greeting other dogs.

My dogs can clearly distinguish when it is okay to greet and when it is not. I don't think it is creating antisocial behavior. IMHO. I would say the same thing in regards to training horses, who are even more social than dogs (in general) -- they learn when to work and when it is okay to socialize.


For instance, Kuma, my 3 y old intact male can be in a class in a sit or down stay and have dogs breaking their stays all around him and will completely ignore the other dogs. But if I say the word "okay" he is up and ready to go greet the dogs. That is his release command from work.

BradA1878

So a "Canine Good Citizen" is a dog that can act like a "good citizen" when working, but when not working can be rude and aggressive?

That seems to me to be the case, and why so many PPDs and otherwise aggressive dogs are also CGC titled.

What seems very strange to me is that the CGC test is designed to test a dog's temperament in the real world, that's why the test includes things like "Walking through a crowd", "Reaction to distraction", and "Appearance and grooming". If the dog has to be "working" in order to pass the test, then its not a very real world test as a dog is not always working. Right?

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not devaluing the CGC title or the work any you have done to get your dogs to stay focused while "working". I guess I just have issue with the concept and the criteria. for example, this is the description of the test...

"Started in 1989, CGC is a certification program that is designed to reward dogs who have good manners at home and in the community. The Canine Good Citizen Program is a two-part program that stresses responsible pet ownership for owners and basic good manners for dogs."
http://www.akc.org/events/cgc/program.cfm

So, is your dog always working while at home or in the community? Does this test really determine if your dog is good mannered at home as well as in the community?

In the past, it had been suggested to me by insurance people and attorneys that we CGC our Akita as that is proof they are of good nature, and if there was ever a bite incident we could prove that they are "good citizens" by showing their CGC title. When I was told this at first I felt it was a good suggestion... but since I have done the test now a few times the suggestion feels a bit dishonest to me.

I've met a few dogs that had their CGC title (some even had a therapy title too) that I feel sure would have bitten me had I gotten close enough to them or would readily kill another dog if allowed to run free. Do they really deserve a CGC title?

Ok, my point is, the CGC test seems to be valued in the community as a temperament test, but, to me, it feels more like an obedience test than a temperament.

----

ayk

I don't consider disinterest or even turning away (avoidance/appeasement) as a negative in that it should be called anti-social. It is still part of communication among dogs. The other dog in the scenario could be a obnoxious young brat that doesn't deserve a look from the more senior dog. Or the other dog in the scenario could be throwing hard stares and your dog could be heading things off by averting his gaze.

I can understand your viewpoint that greetings shouldn't be penalized during testing, but swinging to other pendulum and downplaying controlled dogs as anti-social is not going to be something I agree with.

As for what insurance agencies make out of the CGC tests, I kind of feel that they are the ones who choose to elevate the value of the CGC. I understand that they have to make risk assessments based on *something*, but it's their own fault if they do so erroneously.

shibamistress

Interesting discussion-- I did think about what Ann posted about the turning away/not greeting. It doesn't necessarily mean the dog is anti-social does it? It could be an appeasement gesture, or as Ann notes, throwing off the hard stare (hmm...same thing, I guess).

People have mentioned me trying to train Oskar to be a therapy dog, and I was kind of "meh" about it (and I probably can't do it anyway, because we're raw feeders, and now they won't allow raw fed dogs to be therapy dogs). I had no idea how one went about doing this, though. CGC test would be first, I guess! He'd have problems with the not greeting other dogs, that's for sure.

I've always thought of the CGC as an obedience test....which is more me not knowing a lot about it than anything else, so I was surprised to see people think of it as a temperament test, though from what Brad posted from their description does seem to be more aimed at temperament. Not that I think the test does that, really.

Edgewood

I am with shibamistress, I always thought of the CGC like a beginner obedience test. Not a temperament test. And to any point, I think that obedience to humans and temperament can often go hand in hand together anyway. For the dog you mentioned above Brad, as soon as a "handler" is there the dog is working and in control. Not the same as being approached by someone that it doesn't know in its yard.

Part of domestication is the ability of the animal (be it dog, horse, etc) to want to work with and listen to humans. In return, the animal gets some sort of "reward" (ie, to that animal the free food provided, shelter, etc have value). So in the CGC description, I do not see a problem of having the dog in a "working" mode when out in public OR while guests are visiting in the home. That is is part and parcel of having a well behaved dog -- ie a dog that wants to listen and work with their owner, in this case by ignoring other dogs or not jumping up on visitors.

So I guess we are back to the debate about whether to consider the CGC a temperament test or a basic obedience test. I suggest that it is the latter and not the former.

And I guess with I also have to disagree that teaching dogs to ignore other dogs is antisocial. I don't think that it is...so maybe we all just have different viewpoints?

CrimsonO2

My best analogy to the gray area regarding this subject would be thus...

When your child is with you and you greet a stranger (or someone your child has never met), you prompt your child to be polite and greet back and interact with them as one would expect of human social norms. However, if you are not with your child or some distance away, the advice given is, "Never talk to strangers...", regardless of whether they say they know Mommy and Daddy.

Jesse

BradA1878

I agree that avoidance is part of dog-dog communication, and so I do consider it to be a "socially healthy" behavior if it is in response to stimuli/behavior.

What I do not agree with is expecting avoidance to be a dog's default behavior, which is essentially what the CGC test expects.

The test allows for very mild interest from the dogs (in each other), but that is the exception... which implies their view of a "Canine Good Citizen" is a dog that avoids other dogs by default. That is not healthy dog-dog social behavior. A dog may avoid another dog for a reason (like the ones Ann mentioned), but their initial default reaction to another dog shouldn't be avoidance - to me, that type of behavior is antisocial (and it is exactly what the CGC test wants the dogs to do).

A dog being given a command to heel or watch their owner is an example of a well trained dog, and I agree that it would be wrong to call that dog antisocial simply for being able to perform that behavior on request.

What I am arguing is that this test expects a "Canine Good Citizen" to avoid other dogs, which may be polite to us humans, but is actually an antisocial (default) behavior to the dogs. By labeling that type of behavior as being the traits of a "good citizen" the AKC is essentially reinforcing antisocial dog traits in their club and that makes me wonder if the AKC, and their CGC program, is promoting poor temperament in their club's dogs.

----

tjbart17

I see the CGC as a temperment test rather than an obedience test. Maybe this is because I needed to complete the CGC to get Koda on track for therapy work. If I had done the test to do competition agility or obedience than my view would be different. However, I think the AKC is pretty clear that it is in fact a temperment test and not an obedience test although your dog must be trained to pass the test.

I'm still totally with Brad on this one. I always comment when Koda greets other dogs, even in a positive way, that he is not being very CGC. But I want him to be social. I want him to be polite and greet other dogs in a well mannered way.

Maybe people are taking the work "anti-social" in a negative way. Anti-social can mean going against society, being disruptive to society, but it also means just acting non-sociable which is what the test is asking for. They want your dog to not socialize with people or other dogs during the test.

ShikokuSpirit

I see the CGC as an Obedience too test because we have to train for it!

I do the same with my dogs as far as we have "work time" and "free time" and although Obedience is suppose to be all fun and games...it's work and you do not fool around at work. The dog needs to be focused, attentive and ready to go. I don't ask for very much of my dog's time...maybe 15 minutes at the most on average. My dogs have the rest of their 23 hours & 45 minutes of "free time" to do as they wish.

lindsayt

When I took the CGC with my Shibas, it was explained to me as being mostly an obedience test and a stepping stone for therapy work. I didn't see it as an assessment of good temperment, because Beebe definately has a rotten one, or as teaching them to ignore other dogs, but more so to pay attention to me as the handler. The whole point of the test for me, is to show that my dogs can work under my control in a social setting, and if I tell them to leave it, then they should. I do not think at all that it should be used as a temperment test, but every evaluator looks for different things when conducting it, and maybe emphasize the wrong things. I do think it is AKC's way to make a little extra $. If the test was sooo important for the breeds overall and to show how great the temperments are, than they ought to proudly display results for the various breeds, or issue it as a title. I was trying to find results for Shibas out of curiosity, but there are none displayed and our breed club doesn't list them either, so, I regard it as more of a graduation announcement from basic obedience.

StaticNfuzz

Brada writes: makes me wonder if the AKC, and their CGC program, is promoting poor temperament in their club's dogs.

--That's an interesting question. I wonder how CGC evolved and was decided on for test criteria. I bet is is has been built up from eons ago.

I would say there are a lot reactive dogs in competition for obedience, rally and agility etc and CGC is the least of it. It amazes me how little some people know about behavior in their dogs and courtesy toward others even at higher competition level. We have to remember "we" (in a broad sense) are just coming out of the dark ages in training and socialization and some concepts are not integrated yet.

Overall, the test is only for a relatively short duration in the grand scheme so I think if a dog is reserved can settle and focus a bit on cue it will have a better shot at fully completing the tasks earlier in age. For example my one Shiba that does not like strange people or strange dogs passed the first round and my most outgoing could not hold it together because of the love of people and things. We still have problems in rally training because of retrieving and removing of numbered cones on the course for the fun of it. My one dog that passed CGC, I would not use that animal for therapy she just is not comfortable with all that goes on.

Really I think the point in CGC is to develop or showcase a dog that can switch gears more easily during the test and there is a propensity for some breeds to excel at that over others. So if anything it may promote or push some breeds or breed mixes over others or a bias toward those breeds who can get the job done sooner in life. As I see it I believe the social or antisocial characteristics in a breed will not be determined via good citizen but through the breeders of breed clubs. However, generally their interest in CGC does not cross over fully, at least not during the life of the dog as a breeding animal. So maybe in regard to the question above that is a good thing?

I would say CGC possibly primes many owners to work toward some additional training goals particularly if they can't or don't wish to indulge in conformation or their dog has finished a conformation title or is just beginning training. There is a lot of title mongering for many, even for those who have mixes and this just fulfills one element of that. So yeah it is more of an announcement that you and your dog now belong to say the grand order of the purple people pleasers etc etc., which can then be informally tacked on to its name.

If anything CGC often opens huge expectations and also frustration for owners about their particular dog and its behavior when maybe an animal is not ready to be "with the ppp plan" right off the bat. You would be amazed how much emphasis or assessment of self worth some people place on "passing". I think it is important for owners NOT to get hung up on extremes and enjoy their dogs first and foremost.

As far as therapy and service work CGC is not the final requirement generally this lil ol test is one in a million hurdles a dog will have to manage if it is to do full service work.

Overall I doubt the club is promoting poor temperaments, they probably could care less who passes and who does not as long as you pay the fee to get tested. Globally they want people to participate though since the program supplements the organization, yet provides a way for the company to connect with the average dog owner.

CrimsonO2

I just saw this article and it made me think of this thread since CGC is the foundation certificate that most organizations look for (therapy, S&R, etc.). I couldn't help but notice the irony.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/30/police-dog-disappears-during-search/?hpt=Sbin