Having many dogs
After reading Brads post on aggression in dogs and his comments on kenneled dogs and open freely group of dog ... I had some questions pop up in my own head.
I Breed and Raise Shiba Inu's and I started out having all house dogs (free group). Some of my Shiba's I bought when they were a bit older and really had to watch who I put them with as they were more dog aggressive at times. After getting my second male and expanding my Shiba family I automatically started a kennel rotation setup. Most of my females can run together but I ALWAYS have to separate the boys from each other. I am assuming many breeder with un neutered males have to do this ... if not, how do you keep them from ripping each other apart?
After starting my rotation, I also noticed two of my females got more aggressive towards each other (both wanting to be aphla female) ... my thoughts on this was, is it because they are now both mature females or is the kenneling them causing the aggression? I would LOVE some input and suggestions. All my other dogs get along with each other. If I could get away with all my dogs running together without the fighting, I would do it. Is it too late at this point? I have 7 adults and 2 pups.
I Breed and Raise Shiba Inu's and I started out having all house dogs (free group). Some of my Shiba's I bought when they were a bit older and really had to watch who I put them with as they were more dog aggressive at times. After getting my second male and expanding my Shiba family I automatically started a kennel rotation setup. Most of my females can run together but I ALWAYS have to separate the boys from each other. I am assuming many breeder with un neutered males have to do this ... if not, how do you keep them from ripping each other apart?
After starting my rotation, I also noticed two of my females got more aggressive towards each other (both wanting to be aphla female) ... my thoughts on this was, is it because they are now both mature females or is the kenneling them causing the aggression? I would LOVE some input and suggestions. All my other dogs get along with each other. If I could get away with all my dogs running together without the fighting, I would do it. Is it too late at this point? I have 7 adults and 2 pups.
Comments
As for you specific questions, keeping in mind I'm no expert and this is only my opinion, here are my answers...
I am assuming many breeder with un neutered males have to do this ... if not, how do you keep them from ripping each other apart?
>>> I think that's a safe assumption to make. I think most breeders kennel their dogs and separate males, it certainly makes keeping them easier.
Here at our place, we do not regularly separate any of our dogs unless a female is in season. We have more dogs than you, and most of ours are much larger, so those 2 reasons alone make it so we have to rotate dogs from area to area during the day, but there is no one combination of our dogs that cannot be mixed or kept together. Actually we make it a point to make sure none of our dogs are always kept apart or together all the time - meaning there is no permanent couple or group among our dogs.
When a female is in season we will separate the males from that female, but we do not have to separate the males from the males unless the female is in very close proximity, but that doesn't happen as part of our management plan is to reduce the amount of exposure the males have to in heat females (unless, of course, we want them to mate).
I don't have a clear answer for you as to why our dogs don't fight, but they don't... Well, we have the occasional argument, actually we probably have an argument among some of our dogs every day, but it never leads to injury. Our dogs learn early on how to get along with each other, and how to resolve conflict without it escalating to a fight. It starts at puppy-hood and expands as they mature, once they hit maturity it is incredibly rare that they engage even in an argument.
IMHO, this is where kenneling dogs creates a social deficit. Dogs who are kenneled and not allowed to interact with one another will not have the opportunity to learn (or form) the social structure needed to coexist peacefully. The longer the dogs are separated and not allowed to form that structure the older they get and the less likely they will be accepting to the concept of adapting to the social structure. It becomes a downward spiral, especially in a breed like the Shiba which is prone to introversion.
So, I guess, IMHO, yes, it probably is too late for the adults you already keep kenneled, especially if they have fought in the past. For the pups, and the young adults, I would think you should still be able to let them interact and start to build the foundation of their own little social structure.
In a multi-dog household, I do believe that every dog should have a kennel (or crate), you never know when you may need to separate them. Dogs are like people, they have good days and bad days, some days a dog may just want to be by themselves and they should have a place where they can go to feel free and safe on those days.
We separate all our dogs at feeding time, BTW.
my thoughts on this was, is it because they are now both mature females or is the kenneling them causing the aggression?
>>> Its been my observation with our dogs that their interest in conflict reduces with age. So, as far as guessing the reason goes, I would bet on the kenneling and not the maturing (for all the reason I listed above).
If I could get away with all my dogs running together without the fighting, I would do it. Is it too late at this point?
>>> I think its probably too late for the adults who are already showing signs of aggression toward each other. I say that only because, from what I can tell from your post, you do not know the history of some of your males 100% - like how socialized they were before you got them, or if they had any negative experiences before they came to live with you. You *might* be able to make it work, but it would be so much work and such a risk that I would suggest you focus on the younger ones and continue to kennel the older ones. focus on not having to kennel the younger ones when they are older - let them build their social foundation now when they are young. Let them do it, don't force what you think their social structure should be. That's just my humble opinion tho, as I wrote before, I'm no expert.
I have 7 adults and 2 pups.
>>> We currently have 22 dogs: 6 intact adults (3 male, 3 female), 5 altered adults (2 male, 3 female), 3 intact adolescents (2 male, 1 female), 4 puppies (2 male, 2 female), 4 newborns (3 females, 1 male). The intact breeds are Shikoku Ken, Kai Ken, and Caucasian Ovcharka.
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I have 5-6 dogs in the house at a time and the others are in a indoor/outdoor kennel with running area. I have one young male and one mature male right now. The nice thing about both males is they get along with all the other dogs (except the older male will not tolerate the young one). With this said, I just need to keep their rotation opposite from each other. Our two Alpha females also are on different rotations. We only started the kenneling a year ago. These two females grew up together ... it is a shame how they turned on each other so fast. One is more territorial (with 'mine' things like toys or area's) and the other has just been plain moody! Both believe they need to rule the roost.
After visiting other kennels and hearing stories, I feel fortunate that my pack of Shiba's aren't too bad with getting along. It really is just the two sets that I have to really plan around. We are trying to keep our pack as much home base (family pets) as possible. We are no longer buying older dogs as it is much harder to keep them all happy in one pack ... raising from pups is much easier. Pups can grow into the pack.
I also have food aggressive Shiba's (the older ones) .. and I do feed them separate. I am trying to teach my young ones to respect each other and stay in their own bowls (without separation) ... So far so good, but will always need to be watched. We also crate train all our dogs.
Wow, 22 dogs, now that would keep you busy. I have looked at your blog and LOVE your dogs' set up.
Our dog number will drop over the next few weeks, thank god. I prefer to have closer to 10 dogs, anything over 15 is too much work. I am shipping 3 dogs to new homes this weekend, 2 are the Kai pups that are going to Peggy's. Then the 4 newborns will be going to homes, and Kodi and Leila will be going to live with Masha's breeder for breeding and to be shown or something. So our number will be back closer to 10 (and under 15) soon. That will be nice.
Based on what you wrote in that last post, it only sounds like 4 of your dogs have issues, I'd say that's a pretty good success rate (especially with Shiba lol).
As for feeding, we just feel the work required to get our dogs to eat nicely in a group is not worth doing, it would be a lot of work for very little payoff. So we just separate them. Plus, we have Caucasian Ovcharka, they tend to be pretty nasty with other dogs when it comes to their food.
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I keep my Shibas separate all the time after a near deadly fight. They've been separated from one another for two years now. I can take them for walks together, and they can pass one another in the house ok, but they cannot really be together at all. My male Shiba is so reactive, that he also cannot be with the Akita puppy either.
Anyway, even though we're working on behavioral issues with all of my dogs, I will never trust them together again. So my feeling is that once dogs have hurt one another, they likely won't be able to be trusted together.
I read this and about died. You are out of your mind, Brad!
"Our dog number will drop over the next few weeks, thank god."
Then I read this and though I still think you're out of your mind, I'm glad for you that the number will be decreasing soon!
We just have 3 dogs and at times I feel very overwhelmed by them, especially when Darcy and Tuula haven't been working. It's deer firearms season right now and I can't safely have them in the woods and they're driving me nuts. No walk on earth is long enough to make up for a good hunt. Solomon is in the way constantly and is also very needy and kind of obnoxious in general, so it feels like a lot of dogs in this house some days.
Although, Rakka is a shikoku. Tojo (my late shiba) got irritated by all the ruckus and he'd sometimes just go hide in the master bedroom, which all the other dogs knew was "his" space, where no one was allowed to mess with him. So, I agree with Brad that they all need their own space, because without that personal space, I don't think Tojo would've been very happy.
I've spent most my life in a multi-breed/multi-dog household, and I think being aware of each dog's temperament and making a proper assessment of their needs is crucial - such as Tojo having "his" place. Watching the dogs at Casa Anderson, and seeing how in-tune Brad and Jen are with their animals, just served to reinforce my thoughts on this. Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, depending on how you look at it, it also reinforced my opinion that I am a one or two dog person!!