When do dog play fights get too extreme?
I was looking at the article on the Bear-Bear killer. He was fearing for his family and dog's safety? If it were me and a dog was on killer mode, I would rather use a stick to defend myself because my adoration for dogs is so deep that I made a self-vow never to use a gun to harm a dog. This is for any circumstance even if my future kids were being attacked by dogs.
Now, the reason why I am writing this discussion: Like people, dogs playfighting can be mistaken for actual fighting. There are those daredevil people who will play fight so aggressively they know that their opponent can actually get hurt or die. I am talking about when people might do those re-enactments of gladiator fights with actual weapons and they don't seem to care if they kill or seriously harm the other person. I can also see how when someone does play fighting rough but that like the aforementioned example that someone mistakes it for actual fights. Play fighting and staged fights could easily be mistaken for a fight with the intent to harm or kill your opponents.
When it comes to NK and dogs in general play fighting, when do you deem it going to far? If a Tosa was play fighting with another Tosa, I can see why someone might mistake it for dog fighting or the like because a Tosa is noted for being champion dog wrestlers.
Now, the reason why I am writing this discussion: Like people, dogs playfighting can be mistaken for actual fighting. There are those daredevil people who will play fight so aggressively they know that their opponent can actually get hurt or die. I am talking about when people might do those re-enactments of gladiator fights with actual weapons and they don't seem to care if they kill or seriously harm the other person. I can also see how when someone does play fighting rough but that like the aforementioned example that someone mistakes it for actual fights. Play fighting and staged fights could easily be mistaken for a fight with the intent to harm or kill your opponents.
When it comes to NK and dogs in general play fighting, when do you deem it going to far? If a Tosa was play fighting with another Tosa, I can see why someone might mistake it for dog fighting or the like because a Tosa is noted for being champion dog wrestlers.
Comments
I saw a video you posted of Ahi stalking Hilo (I think - an akita anyways), and to me it seemed quite "violent", but I am not familiar with NK quarrels. When do you step in? I guess I am not used to NK playfighting. I am not in doubt with my parents mix or my shepherd, but I have seen akita owners tollerate (play)fights, that I couldn't tell if they were real or for play. But I guess they weren't since nobody got hurt?
I noticed when I took care of Jason (AA) that he was veeeery foodposessive. In all other situations he'd would take almost any crap from other dogs, but if it involved food he'd go right into attack mode in less than a second. Is this normal NK response, if they feel like it's too much, whether it's unwanted play initiations, or resourceguarding?
This is something I'd like to know more about, since I just realized I might be confused with this. Stepping in, in playfight is unnessecary, but not stepping in if it's the real deal can also be bad.
How are NK playfights compared to non-NK breeds in your opinion?
And of course, I probably intervene more often than not, given that I've had a couple of bad fights. But I can tell by body language and by tone. If the dogs are taking turns self-handicapping (switching off who is on the bottom for example) and if the growling is a play growl in tone (Bel tends make her play growl more rumbly and exaggerated) I figure they are ok. I know this isn't really helpful with other dogs, but you do learn to know the difference between a real growl and a play growl. I watch Oskar too. When he feels threatened (or is guarding food) he drops his head pretty low, and will curl his lip, but won't growl. I've learned that head drop is his Akita sign that you shouldn't mess with him (he only does it to other dogs, btw). Oskar is also very food possessive, but he does give his warning sign rather than just bite, though it is a silent warning sign! (I've never heard him growl except his play growl, come to think of it).
The fights I've seen with my Shibas were much louder, and higher in pitch. Both Toby and Bel tend to make more higher pitched growls and snarls when they are fighting. Bel screams, too. A regular Shiba scream, but with a snarl in it. I know that the difference in tone is so distinctive to me that it will wake me up and get me down the stairs before I'm even awake (I know that from last week, when Toby slipped past my husband and Bel attacked him; I was asleep, but knew right away that scream was a bad sign). Toby doesn't play with other dogs, ever, so any growl from him is a warning!
It's pretty much down to knowing your dogs. You'll know! If I see Bel give Oskar a quick correction--a snap or nip with a bit of snarl to tell him she's had enough of his bigness, then I leave them alone, but given how volatile she is, if I hear it more than once, I'll check it out, and if Oskar doesn't leave her alone, I separate them.
If so, the point of me posting that video was to show how quarrelsome a Shikoku Ken can be, so, yes, that is an example of what I would consider aggressive behavior and therefore a situation where someone should have stepped in.
Unfortunately sometimes it happens so fast that you miss the opportunity to step in before the situation turns bad. That video, IMHO, is a good example of that.
I think this is why a lot of people are not comfortable with their dogs free-playing. Probably they have (or see) one bad experience, like in that video, and then never let their dogs play like that again.
It's my opinion tho that the video above also shows great restraint on the part of all the dogs in the video as there was no injury and none of the other dogs got involved. I suspect that, if we didn't let our dogs free-play the way we do, that situation could have ended much worse.
It is through this type of free-play and conflict that dogs learn social boundaries and proper communication skills.
I also agree with Lisa that it's more about the individual dog and not so much the breed.
Hands off? "Angry mommy voice"? Pots and pans banging?
Or Hands on? Grabbing the one who's ticked by the leg or tail?
Fights around here usually involve Ahi, and she and I have "come to terms" enough over the fights that I can usually break them up with a loud "HEY!"... Sometimes tho I have to get in there, and I'll usually just pick her up by the mid section - which is not how I recommend breaking up a fight... but Ahi's back legs hurt, so if I try to "wheelbarrow" her she will redirect on me due to pain.
If it is a CO or Blue, then it takes more effort, that's when I'll "wheelbarrow" one out of the area while being loud toward the other party. A tail works ok too, as long as it's a steady constant pull and not a jerk. It's very rare that we have issues with the COs or Blue tho.
With the Kai, which is even rarer, all it usually takes is a "HEY!" and they stop.
That's why I think play should be broken up regularly for no reason at all. If you stop the dogs from playing for a second, give them a treat or something, then send them back to play more, you reinforce that behavior pattern (the play-stop-play). That makes it way easier to break them up when the play gets too rough as they are already accustomed to being stopped mid-play. I also think it helps them play-it-safe because they are always waiting for us to stop them... but I could just be projecting with that thought.
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When I need to separate, mine are mostly real fights, unfortunately. Last week I had to force Bel's mouth open to get her to let go of Toby (poor Toby! no wonder he's reactive with other dogs--most of his experience is with a maniac!). She had showed some bite inhibition as he was not bleeding, but she was really latching down, and it may have simply been she was grabbing him on his ruff where there is a lot of fat, and simply couldn't draw blood there or not without letting go first and trying again. There's probably a better way to do it, but I just pried her mouth open while my husband pulled her back and I blocked Toby from coming at her (which he showed no inclination to do). I've tried water before--no avail--and when she's really crazy, I doubt even the wheelbarrow would work, as I tried pulling her back by her tail once, and she would not let go.
Anyway, Toby's fine from this little scuffle, our vigilance on separation is heightened, and Bel is as crazy as ever, but this gives me something to think about in terms of managing a less volatile pair.
This sounds disgusting, but it works great on my little dogs, but it's probably not as effective on a bigger or more determined dog: finger up the bum. It unhinges the dog who is latched on and keeps your hands away from their mouth... though then your hand IS in their butt...
Luckily the bad fights are few and far between, and I haven't been witness to one in a long time, I just hear about them (or deal with the stressed-out dogs) later.
There has been one time I had to go to blows to separate two dogs. Riki and a neighbors dog got into a fight ater the neighbors dog came into the yard. They were locked up to gether and I couldn't get them apart so I went in and served some nuckle sandwitch to the neighbors dog to get him off of Riki's neck. It took about three good blows to get the dog off, my brother was on the way from the house to get my .38. The neighbor ended up paying for all the vet bills for Riki and his dog.
I my self would hate to have to put a dog down but if it comes to the point where my family or any of my dogs are being attacked, I won't blink an eye. IMHO a dog that is out of control and mauling a child or an adult is a big liability and should be put down.