Introducing the Jindo
So not exactly a NK, but similar. I am looking for some feedback on my potential situation.
I have a Shiba Inu (Kuma) and a Maine Coon mix (Sid); they get along no problem
Now, I am about to possibly/probably inherit a pair of Jindo from my boyfriend's parents. I am well aware of the fact that like Shibas, Jindos are not for everyone. I will admit that I'm not a super expert owner of dogs but I am not a complete novice, either, nor am I one to coddle dogs to the point of dysfunction. I work in an animal hospital and have witnessed a lot of this.
Kuma is a very typical Shiba Inu. He does not cuddle, and obeys at will. Despite what that implies, he is a great dog for certain people I guess such as myself, who does not like an overly needy dog. He is naturally well-behaved in that I've never had any problems with him being destructive or getting into/eating things that he shouldn't, not a regular barker, no screaming, lets me cut his nails, etc.
I have raised him since he was a puppy and I socialized him extensively- so he is generally well-behaved in public with people and other dogs. However- he is still the breed that he is, and he is inherently dominant and food/treat aggressive when it comes to other animals, especially dogs and to a lesser extent, my cat. I have fostered dogs before in my home and well, the best description of his attitude towards them would be... not intolerant.
My last foster was an older Dalmatian and he would goad her, I guess, for the lack of a better word- he would play bow excitedly but got right in her face and would try to instigate whatever it was. I'm not sure if it was a dominance thing. But when it came to food, forget it. Even if I had them eating in separate rooms, he would get incredibly anxious knowing that someone else besides him was actually eating. Even if the notion of food came about, like my unwrapping something, he would immediately run to her and snarl in her face.
In any case, that is the gist of his interaction with other dogs in his territory. Not terribly bad, but seemingly very likely that and all-out fight would break out.
So- back to the Jindos. They are coming from a very typical Korean dog-owning situation where they are left outside all day by themselves, have not been socialized or housebroken. I am Korean and this issue is fairly prevalent amongst the Koreans, i.e. undersocialized, untrained Jindos who get loose and bite/kill other dogs, etc. My cousin had an aggressive Jindo when he was younger and was bitten in the face by it. I believe it was subsequently euthanized.
I have seen pictures of them and they look very underfed and somewhat neglected. The current owners realize this and are looking to give them away. I had been looking into the Jindo for some time now and I was even in the market for a puppy, ideally, but I am equally open to the idea of adopting the pair. It is a boy and a girl, both under 2 -3 years, the girl being a little older. I am not so concerned about the girl, who from what my boyfriend tells me is sweet and submissively urinates (which is my biggest concern of her); the boy was introduced to her when she was older so it bodes well for me that she has been able to coexist with him.
I am a little more worried about the boy- he is probably about 2 years old at this point, still intact, and is extremely boisterous and "wild" from what I have heard. Not only will I be introducing him to my current dog, another male, I am concerned that his being so excitable and boisterous will trigger aggression from my dog. But from his picture I am completely smitten with him especially. http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c191/sk561832/166389_488406907296_568157296_5975574_1463878_n.jpg
I just want to be prepared for the worst.
Though I don't want to bite off more than I can chew, I would rather take them than have someone inexperienced with dog ownership find themselves in a very unsavory position thinking that owning a Jindo is like owning a pug or something. So many Jindos end up in shelters that way. I am fully aware that I will need to train them both and have to face so. many. variables, like the cat, my otherwise dominant dog, and the unconventional breeds all around.
Will anyone be so kind as to offer up some tips, short of not going through with the entire thing altogether?
I have a Shiba Inu (Kuma) and a Maine Coon mix (Sid); they get along no problem
Now, I am about to possibly/probably inherit a pair of Jindo from my boyfriend's parents. I am well aware of the fact that like Shibas, Jindos are not for everyone. I will admit that I'm not a super expert owner of dogs but I am not a complete novice, either, nor am I one to coddle dogs to the point of dysfunction. I work in an animal hospital and have witnessed a lot of this.
Kuma is a very typical Shiba Inu. He does not cuddle, and obeys at will. Despite what that implies, he is a great dog for certain people I guess such as myself, who does not like an overly needy dog. He is naturally well-behaved in that I've never had any problems with him being destructive or getting into/eating things that he shouldn't, not a regular barker, no screaming, lets me cut his nails, etc.
I have raised him since he was a puppy and I socialized him extensively- so he is generally well-behaved in public with people and other dogs. However- he is still the breed that he is, and he is inherently dominant and food/treat aggressive when it comes to other animals, especially dogs and to a lesser extent, my cat. I have fostered dogs before in my home and well, the best description of his attitude towards them would be... not intolerant.
My last foster was an older Dalmatian and he would goad her, I guess, for the lack of a better word- he would play bow excitedly but got right in her face and would try to instigate whatever it was. I'm not sure if it was a dominance thing. But when it came to food, forget it. Even if I had them eating in separate rooms, he would get incredibly anxious knowing that someone else besides him was actually eating. Even if the notion of food came about, like my unwrapping something, he would immediately run to her and snarl in her face.
In any case, that is the gist of his interaction with other dogs in his territory. Not terribly bad, but seemingly very likely that and all-out fight would break out.
So- back to the Jindos. They are coming from a very typical Korean dog-owning situation where they are left outside all day by themselves, have not been socialized or housebroken. I am Korean and this issue is fairly prevalent amongst the Koreans, i.e. undersocialized, untrained Jindos who get loose and bite/kill other dogs, etc. My cousin had an aggressive Jindo when he was younger and was bitten in the face by it. I believe it was subsequently euthanized.
I have seen pictures of them and they look very underfed and somewhat neglected. The current owners realize this and are looking to give them away. I had been looking into the Jindo for some time now and I was even in the market for a puppy, ideally, but I am equally open to the idea of adopting the pair. It is a boy and a girl, both under 2 -3 years, the girl being a little older. I am not so concerned about the girl, who from what my boyfriend tells me is sweet and submissively urinates (which is my biggest concern of her); the boy was introduced to her when she was older so it bodes well for me that she has been able to coexist with him.
I am a little more worried about the boy- he is probably about 2 years old at this point, still intact, and is extremely boisterous and "wild" from what I have heard. Not only will I be introducing him to my current dog, another male, I am concerned that his being so excitable and boisterous will trigger aggression from my dog. But from his picture I am completely smitten with him especially. http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c191/sk561832/166389_488406907296_568157296_5975574_1463878_n.jpg
I just want to be prepared for the worst.
Though I don't want to bite off more than I can chew, I would rather take them than have someone inexperienced with dog ownership find themselves in a very unsavory position thinking that owning a Jindo is like owning a pug or something. So many Jindos end up in shelters that way. I am fully aware that I will need to train them both and have to face so. many. variables, like the cat, my otherwise dominant dog, and the unconventional breeds all around.
Will anyone be so kind as to offer up some tips, short of not going through with the entire thing altogether?
Comments
Is it possible to get some training in with the Jindos before you get them home, maybe for leash work or a sit? You are going to be at a disadvantage if you can't use a few bits of training to help you out. A ton of daily exercise for the Jindos often will help bring down the edge a bit too.
Want to mention, although the female maybe sweet with humans she may very well be a holy terror to other dogs particularly due to the lack of socialization and the fact she has the bond back up of the male dog, so be prepared to divide and separate. If your Shiba is stuck in his ways he may not be at all excited about sharing his space with what he perceives as rowdy upstarts that will band together taking up his territory.
Inside, I would make sure you have enough room to separate areas in your home with baby gates or doors and crates. Most likely you will need to rotate among areas so dogs are not in the same space at the same time. In my experience it can take several weeks but often much longer for things to get somewhat comfortable and the novelty of new dogs and its scent wears off, particularly if you have a stodgy Shiba. I would feed all dogs separately in a crate or kennel for sure!
I like Sukosi's suggestion of feeling out the behavior in a neutral area. Make sure to introduce just one at a time. Introductions from a distance on a walk are good but you need will need a second person to help you. Also make sure you have a separate safe area for your cat to escape to, eat its food and personal cat box privacy.
You didn't mention if the female Jindo is spayed, so I am guessing she isn't . If not, I would get that done or it could spur on extra discord trouble with the males later when she goes into season. Spaying and neutering all dogs will go a long way in reducing problems.
It may be hectic for awhile. Depending on the personalities you will have to weigh, who, how and when to fully integrate. Really look at the amount of space, time and effort you can put into the process. Three dogs is a lot and you have to figure in the extra attitude of the Shiba as well (LOL). Expect it to be a bumpy ride that requires a unified plan by both you and your boyfriend and a good deal of time.
Ann (ayk) I think has Jindos so maybe she can give some pointers too.
Snf
My first tip since the owner is giving up the two Jindos is to have them both spayed/neutered. Regardless of whether they go to you or a shelter, requirements of most shelters will usually be that the dog be spayed or neutered before they are adopted out.
My question to you is: what is your boyfriend's opinion and insight to what those two dogs would need? You sound like you are well aware of the gravity of the situation you are about to undertake. Much like child-rearing, full support, expectations, and understanding from the both of you will go along way in the success of this venture.
Jesse
If the dogs are out of range of soCal, then the first thing I would suggest that you do is visit the dogs where they are right now. Don't bring your dog or cat, just yourself. See how they react when they see that an unintroduced stranger is on their territory, see how they feed off each other's energy (does the male incite the female up), and lastly, how much they are responsive to their current owners' attempts to calm/control them. One thing I would not want to deal with is an excited/frustrated Jindo redirecting to his owner.
Gather some environmental observations, like how the dogs are fed (free fed together without squabbling, respectfully taking turns, or fed separately because of fighting). They should still be fed at set times and at separate locations when they are at your home, but this will give a gist of what their current dynamics are. They actually aren't at a bad weight in the picture. I've seen skinnier on Jindos even when fed very high grade kibble. Try to find out what they're currently being fed. They may choose not to eat the first couple of days that they are with you, but at least you'll know it won't be because of a new, strange dog food.
Observe what type of fence currently keeps them in. I see a bit of a block in the picture. Does that mean that only block fences will keep them in, or can chain-link or wood will do. Note the height of the fence. Ask if they've ever escaped before and how they did so. Over the fence? Under the fence? Through an open gate pushing through people? Compare that with your current fence/gate and be mentally prepared to upgrade your fencing or add an outdoor kennel run if they show signs of breaking out of your yard. Anticipate that they *will* want to escape to be back to their original home no matter how neglected you feel they were there, so be extra viligent in the first month they are with you.
I'm in favor of separating the two Jindos, doing stuff independently and out of sight of the other, but be aware that separation anxiety may occur. Separation anxiety may also occur when using crates on these dogs for the first time. Not just mere whining, but heavily panting, scratching, and breaking teeth against the bars. If that occurs, back off and use a less enclosed space like an x-pen with a top or a kennel run until you can desensitize them. I don't trust babygates to keep dogs apart when unsupervised. When stressed, Jindos will jump them or pull them down, which would be bad news if your Shiba and cat were on the other side.
Once you have a plan on how to manage the two Jindos, then you can think about integrating them with your Shiba. (I honestly don't hold much hope for the cat.) Here's an article that explains the process for one new dog being added. With two new dogs, I would still keep the interaction at a one to one ratio.
http://www.jindo-dog-rescue.org/articles/adding_pack.html
ayk, the dogs are located in the Barstow area and adopting them out to less stressful homes in the Southern Cali area is not a terrible idea altogether, especially to those willing to take on the responsibility. My boyfriend's parents aren't exactly dying to get rid of them and I doubt they are truly concerned to the point where they're going to take the time to entertain potential adopters until they find the perfect one.
My boyfriend is relatively ambivalent about the whole thing. If he could have it his way he wouldn't have any pets altogether and he is often absolutely baffled and confused at my love of animals. However, he knows it makes me happy and he also knows that I can manage perfectly fine with or without him and I won't dump any responsibilities on him that he doesn't want. At this point I have his full support and will help me out wholeheartedly whenever I'll need that extra 10% or whatever, which is usually all I need. Whether I decide to keep the dogs, foster them, or get a puppy, he leaves the decision to me because he is fine with whatever I choose.
His first suggestion, however, was that I do foster them until I can find them a suitable home. Though I initially rejected the idea, it ultimately seems the most realistic at this point. Foster with the option of ownership? I don't know.
As for my living arrangements, I will have enough room for all three dogs. The backyard is not exactly a sprawling estate but more than enough for potty breaks and playtime. I'm not used to actually walking my dog on a regular basis as my Shiba is a lofty baron who rather be indoors than out most of the time, but I am aware that different dogs need different things. We have cement block type fencing about 5 feet tall but I don't think I would just let them out unsupervised. The Jindos do not have a history of trying to escape their current home but yes I do realize that may be neither here nor there if I bring them to my house.
In the end I'm probably going to play it by ear, albeit cautiously. It will be overwhelming but I really don't want to work myself into a nervous wreck overthinking everything.
We did a brief meet and greet with Kuma and the pair a ways from the house when we got home. The boy was cautious but curious, like Kuma, but the girl was growly. Semi-upside is, she is SO people-submissive that she completely falls apart even if we raise our voices above normal levels. Kuma is in our bedroom, perfectly fine and happy that the Jindos are not in his immediate space- I was the most concerned for him because I didn't want him stressing out in his own home; Sid the cat is also content knowing that the strange dogs can't get at him from the crates.
When we went to see them, they barked at us at first and were completely shying away from us. They warmed up relatively quickly with treats and petting. The boy just turned a year and is still a little goofy albeit cautious. The girl is so reserved but dainty and dignified, and I know she misses my boyfriend's dad. Both are even less socialized and much more skittish than I thought, but also much less aggressive than I expected. So much work ahead but all in all I'm encouraged because skittishness gives me something more to work with than outright aggression.
They're skinny, and dirty, but I'm glad I took them.
They're fine. Fine as opposed to how both my boyfriend and his parents made it sound like they were wild and absolutely not suited for living indoors. What?
I'm so not used to having dogs that relish my attention. Kuma will usually "hug" me for a little bit but never usually goes beyond that. With these two, they'll be doing their own thing but as soon as I call for them they're all over me. It's really such a shame that for such a people-oriented (or rather, owner-oriented) breed they go on so neglected much of the time.
In the past couple of days I've felt like some kind of traveling businessman of the 50s who's keeping a second family. Kuma is upstairs in my room when the Jindos are out downstairs with me, and then when they're crated he gets free reign of the house. I haven't seen much of Sid but then again he's a cat. I think I've spent more time in the living room in the past 3 days than I've spent all together after moving into this house. I started walking them with Kuma today, each one alone with Kuma, so Kuma gets a double walk. This is fine also; I keep the walk brisk and leave little room for much interaction for now.
I don't mind making the extra effort and taking the extra time to achieve a good integration. My boyfriend however, would much rather throw all of them together and hope it works out because he just wants the whole ideal pack thing to happen. Uh, I'm not even going there. He tried doing that the second day they were home and I ended up throwing myself on two fighting males and dragging Kuma away. Kuma's small but I've yet to see him back down in a challenge and he just kept lunging at the boy dog. I was pretty pissed off about the situation.
Anyway, if you noticed I just call them boy dog or girl dog because their names are in Korean and hard to pronounce in English. They mean Ocean and Sky in English but I'm looking to rename them. I was contemplating translating it to Umi and Sora (Japanese for sea and sky) but I couldn't do that to Korean dogs lol.
What were their Korean names? Pado and Hanuel?
Keep us posted on your progress!
I haven't had the boy neutered yet, and I was wondering if this would help Kuma's attitude towards him. It's not so much the boy as it is Kuma not liking him. Has anyone had experience with this? Where a neutered male is aggressive toward an intact male?
It sounds like you are doing well so keep up the rotations. Adding some training in the mix for the younger dogs may help too, but I don't think you can go wrong with neutering as a start to potentially reduce conflict.
Snf
I'm really beginning to be more and more dubious of temperament changes linked to spaying/neutering. I could be wrong, but it hasn't done a whole lot in terms of my dogs.