Size comparison of the Kai Ken standards...

BradA1878

I aggregated this info into one email over the weekend, I thought it may be interesting to some of you...

KKA:
Height roughly 40cm (15”) - 50cm (19.5”) at withers
http://www.yamabushikennel.org/standards.php

NIPPO:
Male standard height: 52cm (20”)
Female standard height: 49cm (19”) is a female.
On average, males 49cm (19”) from 55cm (21”), and female 46cm (18”) to 52cm (20”).
http://www.nihonken-hozonkai.or.jp

FCI:
Dogs 53 cm (approx. 20-21 inches)
Bitches 48 cm (approx. 18-19 inches)
http://www.yamabushikennel.org/fci/kai_standards_FCI.pdf

UKC:
Desirable height, measured at the withers, ranges from 18½ to 22 inches (47cm-55.9cm) for males, and 17½ to 20 inches (44.5cm-50.8cm) for females. Weight ranges from 25 to 55 pounds.
http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/KaiRevisedJuly12008
**The UKC standard was revised July 2008, it now allows for up to 22.5 inch!

JKC:
Desirable height for males 50cm, females 45cm. Allowance +-3cm (males 47-53cm, females 42-48cm).
http://www.jkc.or.jp/modules/worlddogs/entry.php?entryID=93&categoryID=5.

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sjp051993

ugh! I would love to change the UKC standard to match the KKA standard.

tjbart17

@sjp051993 Stacey would Tora fit into the KKA standards?

Koda hits the highest end of the UKC standards (21.5 or probably 22" at the withers and 55 pds.), and don't get me wrong. I love his size. It's perfect (because I'm his mom), but I'd like to see the KKA standards be THE standard across the board.

@brada1878 I never heard of that change, and I never heard of any Kai breeders asking for it. Do you know who put in for the change?

I find it odd that no one can agree on a standard.....

WCP

with the work being done now in NA I expect the KKA standard to be more widely accepted in the future. maybe we can get CKC to take it in the next few years

ayk

The UKC revised many of their standards during that time period. Unlike the AKC, they don't need breed clubs to create standards or make changes to their standards.

The hope of some fanciers was that the newer UKC standards would line up closer to FCI standards.

edit:

@brad1878, here's the official FCI standard. The female heights are close to the UKC's. The male upper height is correct, but the lower is off.

http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/317gb99_en.doc

BradA1878

Peggy and I chatted over the weekend and she mentioned that she had noticed that the UKC's Shikoku standard is shorter than the Kai standard! LOL

The UKC is a private org, they can do whatever they want. I still have yet to understand why anyone needs papers from a private company. It's really strange to me.

Kona would be too big for the KKA standard too, he is 21".

In a perfect world the KKA standard would be the prevailing standard, but at the very least I would like to see the UKC match the NIPPO standard (as it looks like the FCI standard is based on the NIPPO standard too). Ya know?

At least then the standard would reflect one of the registries in Japan, instead of just being its own thing.

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BradA1878

hmm, thanks Ann, I guess I had an old fci standard.

ayk

The revision dates are stamped the same, but the bad math has been removed on the one hosted on the FCI website.

sjp051993

I believe based on her height compared to Kuma that she is within KKA standard. I know last year the Nippo judge told marsha her one female was too short (for Nippo).

tjbart17

@sjp051993 Koda is Kuma's size. Tora must've taken after Jojo. I've been asked if I think neutering him young made him bigger as an adult, but he is exactly the size of his dad, so I don't think so.

I'm guessing Marsha would like the KKA standards then. ha ha

jenz

I recently was perusing the AKC's website and noticed that Kai (and Kishu) are Foundation Stock breeds- I guess that means, on their way to registration but not quite there yet? They had a ton of pics and some history up, acceptable colors, etc- but no height/weight.

http://www.akc.org/breeds/fss_breeds.cfm

You know what else I found interesting? That the AKC is now funneling hunting spitz (Kai, Kishu, Karelian Bear Dog, etc) into the Working Group. Why aren't they going into the Hound Group, a la Norwegian Elkhound? Strange.

Jen

BradA1878

Working group is better than non-sporting group!

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ayk

My guess is that the people who are petitioning the AKC for FSS are requesting which group their breed will fall under, and putting their breeds under Working group will slow down some impulse buyers.

shishiinu

Wow thats cool that they are going to be placed into a catagory that makes more sense. Although I disagree about th coat color of the Kishu. Not sure where they got the info but the only reason the wite coat became dominant was due to the show ring. As every one has seen there are non white kishus in the show ring and is a accepted color by the NKHK.

sjp051993

Tara - I was referring to my Kuma (the shiba) who is 16 inches at the withers. Tora is about an inch taller than him.

Working would be better than non-sporting. I prefer the group structures of the UKC. All the northern, coated spitz like breeds all fall into the same group.

Marsha and I have had several discussions about the breed standard and we both prefer the KKA standard. After all we want to breed to what the breed truly is. The KKA has done the best job of preserving the breed in its original form.

tjbart17

lol yeah I knew that, but Koda is like his dad's (Kuma's) size. That's what I was talking about. That could get really confusing.

Heidi

Interesting size difference. I really like this size of dog because they're rugged and substantial, but a very manageable size.

Hound group makes sense if you're sorting by function. CKC has shikoku in the hound group. Although, I suppose there are various criteria you could sort by, including physical characteristics like having all spitz and northern breeds together. The non-sporting group is nonsense, in my opinion.

Nekopan

Not sure if a lot of people know this, but "non-sporting" actually means the breed traditionally performed a variety of tasks. I believe the group name needs an overhaul.

MirkaM

I'm trying to sort out how to make FCI judges believe that Kai under 48cm isn't small. Ife always get mention that she is too small for the breed. I prefer the KKA standard too and really don't give a toss what the judges say about my Kais size. But it's sad that the size can affect much to the judgment. I think Nuuk never fits the FCI standard.

ayk

Brad mentioned "The UKC is a private org, they can do whatever they want. I still have yet to understand why anyone needs papers from a private company. It's really strange to me."

The advantage that the UKC (private company) has over the AKC (non-profit) is that they are much more mobile when it comes to implementing changes or offering new services. They offered DNA pedigrees way before the AKC formed a committee to consider it. They're willing to try new sports before the AKC does.

Nekopan mentioned "I believe the group name [non-sporting] needs an overhaul."

The AKC had started an investigative committee on group realignments back in 2008. Because their existing groups were getting too big due to new breeds being recognized, it made sense to many to adjust the groups. The committee’s idea was to split the Sporting group into “Sporting – Pointers and Setters” and “Sporting – Retrievers and Spaniels” and to split the Hound group into “Scent Hound” and “Sight Hound.” A new group, the “Northern” group would also be created. The Non-sporting group would be renamed the “Companion” group.

The AKC has since shelved the group realignment idea due to individual breed clubs being disgruntled on being shifted to a different group.

WrylyBrindle

I have a lil dog breed book that puts Kai in hounds, but Akita, Ainu and Shikoku are in Working. Its just book sections though, not any registry. I was just impressed they had Kai at all.

TheWalrus

Just want to add that the Nippo standard for Kai has been amended to allow more leeway in size. I believe it was another two centimeters or so, but I'll have to look it up. That being said, the preferred size is unchanged.

TheWalrus

NIPPO standard for Kai has been temporarily lowered by 2cm. So male bottom end is 47cm, female 44cm.

BradA1878

Oh, interesting. Why temporarily? Did they do that to entice more KKA Kai owners to show in NIPPO?

TheWalrus

It was lowered a while ago in response to a petition presented to NIPPO by Kai breeders. For now the change is temporary, to allow a wider range of Kai to be shown in NIPPO. The other change that was made was that tongue spots in Kai are allowed to a certain degree. In the other breeds, a spot larger than the tip of a pinkie is a no-no. Of course all this size, tongue spot, and urajiro stuff is up to each judge to weigh in their own mind. There won't be Kai winning anything in NIPPO any time soon. They're always dead last lol.

MirkaM

GREAT news! I really hope that this change would be permanent (and of course that JKC would also change their range in height). Was JKC's standard based on NIPPO's breed standard, right?

Edit: I just browsed in JKC's breed standard and they have also changed the range http://www.jkc.or.jp/modules/worlddogs/entry.php?entryID=93&categoryID=5.

TheWalrus

These standards really need to get cleaned up LOL. Is there any other breed in the world that practically has a different size standard for every registry they are recognized by?

Brego_mellon_nin

Yeah it would be nice if they sort of agreed on at least some points

We have 4 registries for GSD in Denmark and they are actually all the same. The only thing they disagree on is whether longhaired dogs are accepted and allowed to be shown and bred. But all other characteristics are the same.