Barking at strangers

TaraATaraA
edited April 2011 in Shikoku Ken (四国犬)
Hi everyone! I was just curious does anyone else's Nihon ken bark at strangers in a slightly fearful/excited way? To give a little more context to my question, let me describe Panda's behavior. (1 year old Shikoku female)

So, when we go on walks she tends to get weirded out by people walking on the side walk towards us, especially if they are looking our way, and her looks usually get her lots of stares. She's usually fine at Home Depot, at Cafes, or if the person is walking a dog, or if its a jogger that passes by without stopping to try and pet her or talk to me. She seems to feel threatened though by any stranger that stops to approach us on our walks. Today it was a mother walking her small son home :( I was in the front driveway doing some clicker training, and playing tug, and the mom and her son had to pass by to go home. Of course they stopped and asked what kind of dog she was, and Panda went nuts barking at them. I'm certain that Panda wasn't guarding me or our house, it was more to show her discomfort and to make sure they didn't approach any closer.

Let me also say that she has some people that she met several times as a puppy and continues to see consistently and she absolutely loves them! She's also surprised me a time or two by remembering trainers that she only met a few times as a puppy and giving them a warm welcome.

Also, the other day a friend of mine was visiting (a girl about my age) and Panda did her barking thing at her, and my friend was really good and just ignored it. I gave my friend some toys to try and play with and that really broke the ice, and Panda was fine after that.

I know I should have socialized Panda better towards strangers as a puppy, but somehow I wasn't able to get her used to people that approach us on walks or meeting strangers in my home.

I was just wondering if anyone has some socialization tips, did their dog grow out of this? Is it a training/socialization issue? Might it just be her personality that she needs time to meet and warm up to people?


Comments

  • rgillardrgillard
    Hi, we have a Nihon Ken that was a rescue. We think she is either a large non-standard Shiba Inu or a Shikoku Inu. We dont know anything about her youth and have had her about 5 month now.. She is exhibiting the same behaviour towards guests in our house, barking and growling. We are working with a trainer using BAT (behavioural adjustment training). It is a slow process and I am not sure if we will ever break her of it. It is really only a problem when guests enter the home. If she is outside and the guests come over and are sitting in the living room or kitchen and she comes in to find them there she is fine, a bit nervous at first but ultimately fine. She is a wonderful dog in every other way, fully crate trained, walks well, very reserved otherwise. Some days I want to give up on the training which is very time intensive and slow to yield results but we are committed to it until summer, since we have not been able to have many people over. Wow the things we do for dogs. :-) Wish you luck.
  • ShikokuSpiritShikokuSpirit
    If it's what I think it is, I can picture a Shikoku doing that. I'd just ignore her, whoever she is barking at should also ignore her. Casually redirect her attention as if you don't notice her barking. The way you handled it with your friend (the ignoring and toy playing) was excellent! It's pretty much exactly what I'm recommending below:

    If you're being approached...so long as Panda isn't lunging at people...have the people approach you (all humans ignoring her), engage in conversation and allow Panda to make her own decisions. I'd imagine a Shikoku would eventually stop barking and cautiously sniff ("investigate") the person or persons in question. She is acting as if she is paranoid, right? When you are finished with your conversation...both you and the person or persons should continue to ignore the dog and walk away. She *should* learn that nothing bad happened.

    I'd first practice with friends you know but Panda doesn't know. Once you see her begin to settle and become more comfortable...you can have the person give treats to her but without looking at her, keep said person's focus on you. Then once Panda is comfortable taking treats from this "stranger's" hand, said person can engage and interact with Panda a bit (like playing with a toy) or giving obedience commands (if Panda likes doing them) with rewards.

    How quickly she progresses depends on the severity of her discomfort. Shikoku seem pretty quick with the "warming up" though. And I'm sure it just might be how Panda is wired, Shikoku sometimes get "weirded" out even if they've been socialized well. Don't worry about it and continue with her ongoing socialization and exposures!

    It sounds like you are doing GREAT so far! Keep it up!
  • cmptekicmpteki
    The only time Kimi growls to warn people is when my wife walks her at night; anyone approaching is treated the same way, as a potential threat. I don't know that she would do anything beyond flee should someone make an agressive move; but she sounds mean enough in the dark, and looks enough like a wolf, that unfriendly persons in the dark choose alternate paths to walk.

    When I walk her; she takes her lead from me, and if I am not concerned, she is content to stay calm. If you think Panda is nervous or scared, try immediately, and quickly stepping in front of her; ie, between her and the perceived threat...this places you in the Alpha role as the protector, Panda should then defer to you and relax, as you have taken charge of the encounter. You don't even have to say anything, it is the quick, decisive action that makes the impression.

    I have done this with Kimi when there is a large off leash dog approaching and she reacts with barking and growling...for me it works every time. Kimi is great with people, but sometimes she just doesn't like other dogs, other times, they can wander up and lick her face...no idea how she picks and chooses. I have also used the same method when she tries to "direct" someone that is new in our home (ie, follow, herd, mouth at the legs to try and turn them, etc.); she still watches the person carefully, but she has decided I am taking care of things, and lets them be.

    It may or may not work for you; but it is certainly easy to try.
  • EdgewoodEdgewood
    @Tara - I think that both ShikokuSpirit and cmpteki already gave you some good advice. FWIW, Sachi can be this way at times too, especially when people come to our house, but then it is really, really variable. Sometimes she barks and acts paranoid and other times she is fine right away. When Peggy (O'ikon) and Bob came to visit, she did bark and them, I did some quick (3 minutes) obedience with her and then gave the treats to Peggy/Bob to feed her. She was fine after that.

    And like Corina says, some shikoku are just like that even with a lot of socialization. Sachi was taken to a nearby place where a lot of farmers go each Saturday (about 100 tall men with only a few women) and she is great there (as a puppy and now) but still occasionally gets paranoid, especially at home. She is also can be shy of kids, although I did take her to a very big Pet Expo and she was 100% perfect, very obedient, and letting adults and kids pet her (and she gets a lot of attention).

    I find that she is fine in crowds with lots of people around but when a person actually focuses DIRECTLY on her and wants to pet her, then she can get shy.

    I also find that, like Corina said, doing a bit of obedience, that she knows, puts her back into her comfort zone and gets her mind off the person (especially since she is very food motivated and I can give the treats to the person).

    I do also think that it might be more hard wired into female shikoku, IMHO. My male is not that way at all, and from the forum and talking to other owners, it seems that the females are more sensitive in this way.
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    My Akita is like this too. He did tend to bark at people while we were walking once he hit the fear period as a pup (the second one, around 6 months). I was able to work with him on that, because he's super toy motivated, and I started giving him a squeaky toy to play with when he felt nervous, and that seemed to help.

    But he's still wierd about people in the house. He will calm down, and if the person is just sitting down, he will eventually be ok, but once they get up again,he starts barking again. It's a sort of fearful/suspicious bark....he also will follow me around and lay in between me and the visitors. The thing is, if he meets the same people outside,he's fine with them, and he's actually super friendly with people--sometimes too friendly, like jumping up and trying to lick people in the face. (And he does do this with visitors to the house too--it's just then after his initial excitment has passed, the starts with the barking).

    I'm familiar with the BAT training, so I may have to use this with him too. I'm also able to distract him by getting him to run through the things he can do (sit, down, etc) so that helps. I've been a little slack about it, since he's good elsewhere, and not that many people come over, but I guess I need to work on it too.
  • TaraATaraA
    edited April 2011
    Thanks for all the good advice and experiences everyone!

    @rgillard- I wish you luck also with your little rescue girl :) She's lucky to have such dedicated owners. I've never heard of BAT training. Is it a type of positive reenforcement training? Do you use a clicker? I guess it must be difficult not knowing what kinds of experiences/socialization if any your dog had in the past :(

    @ShikokuSpirit- Thanks! I wasn't sure if ignoring the behavior was encouraging it in some way . . . One of the trainers I went to told me that letting a dog perform an act such as barking at people during a walk would make it a habit, and she suggested interrupting the behavior right away (I guess just another way to say "redirect". Her suggestion was to use a treat/toy/etc to get Panda's attention redirected and do some training and if that failed to put enough distance between Panda and the person(s) until I could redirect her attention towards myself. Most of the time this hasn't worked though because she's not usually treat or toy motivated in these instances, and I don't want to have to continually drag my dog away from people that are talking to me. So ignoring the behavior has definite possibilities!!The only thing that might be difficult to do is to actually get people not to look at her when she's barking and stay around and or approach while she's barking up a storm :p

    As for her level of discomfort, I wouldn't describe it as severe, only as slightly weirded out. She was actually fine today with meeting some people at the pet store and at the park and she's also usually fine with crowds. I guess it really depends on the location of the meeting, the environment. Sometimes she's fine if the person smells like dogs or other animals. I really also think it depends on the persons body language and tone of voice. If they feel totally comfortable and don't hesitate and don't reach automatically for her head and don't do to much eye contact . . . this turns into a long list. I think she might just be a sensitive Shikoku female like you said :p I definitely want to work on it tho.

    @cmpteki- I'm sure my own emotions are partly contributing to the problem. I may be more uncomfortable or tense with some people and she responds accordingly. I've actually tried getting in front of her, but she just barks around my leg.

    Oh, and Panda's the opposite of Kimi. She loves all dogs regardless of size and friendliness, but just doesn't feel confident with all people.

    @ Edgewood- It's kind of a relief to know that some Shikoku females are just a bit more sensitive/paranoid. So maybe I don't have to feel like I did something wrong in Panda's socialization. I really did try to socialize her to people and dogs, she just seems to ignore people when dogs are around though, so her puppy classes didn't help for situations of just people.

    I also agree that it seems to be when one person focuses on her, she gets uneasy, but in a group she's usually fine.

    @ shibamistress- I haven't really had to work on her barking at strangers in the house either since, she knows everyone that visits and we really don't get many people over that often.
  • HeidiHeidi
    Rakka used to bark at all men like that. It was just a matter of meeting lots of men who just ignored her and let her approach them. Maybe people can toss treats her way (without looking at her or reaching toward her).
  • TaraATaraA
    @hondru- good idea, if only people had more will power when they see her cute little face :p She has such a friendly looking face that everyone wants to rush up and touch her head first thing.
  • ShikokuSpiritShikokuSpirit
    Maybe throw a sign around her neck that reads, "Please don't pet me, I bite." That *might* do the trick =p.
  • LosechLosech
    Everybody wants to pet Conker and with every one of them I have to step in between and tell them "NO, you CANNOT touch my dog." If I don't they'll try to chase him around my legs. It's so obnoxious how obvious it is that he doesn't want to be touched much less looked at by these people and they just don't get it.

    Conker barks and bays at people in the house and occasionally at the dog park but after a few minutes he'll stop and let them pet him. Out on walks though, not happening. At least he doesn't bay his head off at everyone we see on the sidewalk.
  • HeidiHeidi
    When people ask to pet Rakka, I say, yeah you can pet her, but she'll probably jump all over you and get in your face the second you touch her. Then people are still surprised when she gets up in their grill.
  • rgillardrgillard
    BAT is Behaviour Adjustment Training. There are some videos out there from the Ahimsa Dog Training website. My trainer recommended we watch the video before starting with our training of our Nihon rescue. It involves clicker training, yup. Similar to other behaviour modification techniques.
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Shikoku are very beautiful dogs. It wouldn't surprise me if people (strangers and acquaintances alike) intensely stared at Panda causing her discomfort. There have been times where Kurenai has barked at strangers because, despite humans being aloof and friendly enough, they make quick motions to pet her which can push her over the threshhold of excitement in some instances and she has energy she needs to expel.

    Kurenai will also bark at nearby sounds that suddenly startle her at night. Anything that startles her or if she is unsure of her immediate reaction is to bark and turn and address the "threat" (in that order).

    Hang in there. I can't give anymore advice than what others have already given other than that you are not alone:-)

    Jesse
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