In every country there is different way of hunting so our Karelians or Spitz might not fit for Russian or American type of hunting but it fits to our hunting. I'm not versed in hunting but I know that every hunter has their "own" breed, one swear for Karelian Bear Dog and another to Norwegian Elkhound. It's totally different to hunt in marsh than in tundra.
Yes, a lot of it is personal opinion. You get that with any breed.
From my experience, some of it is genetics. Most of it is expectations from the owners. Before, I used to believe it's all about the dog-- but now I realize it's whether or not if someone is willing to help the dog reach its potentials make or break the individual.
For me, I just want my old dog back-- the 35 pounds, 19" tall Shiba Inu. I am a bit disappointed he was neutered because finding another dog like him with the same temperament is impossible. It's easier for me to defect to another breed where my ideas are enshrined in the standards.
Now, an associate of mine always asked why I am willing to go out of my way to get a registered dogs overseas if I could import a bunch of non-registered hunting-bred Norwegian Blacks from West Virginia for $100 per dog and start up my own hunting kennel with them; which are fundamentally the same as the breeds I am interested in. To be honest, I want the "red flame." I want that sable e/e colouration.
Golden retrievers and Duck Tollers are sable e/e. Some of them have black whiskers too; not all. At first I thought ee means white whiskers, but apparently it's not always the case.
Actually, there was a litter, I forgot which forum, which a person crossed a Finnish Spitz with a Finnish Lapphund. There were two tricolours, and six red dogs. Now, um, the only way you can throw a tricolour is if the dog is a carrier of the at allele. However I don't think there was ever a tricolour Finnish Spitz.
However, sometimes when you cross a Golden Retriever with another breed, you will get brindles or tricolours. The reason for this is the recessive yellow (or recessive red, whatever you want to call it) masks any patterns like black-and-tan and brindles.
This was back when I was trying to figure out where the tricolour came from-- then a retriever breeder gave me the run down on the genetics of Ayee.
I'll have to kick this up to Liisa Saratonku, but I've never heard the exception of black whiskers on ee. Tan and red whiskers, yes, but not black. Got a pic? In the Jindo breed, you'll also get a rare "white dog with black hairs", which is really a very pale Ay-E-, and when bred to another white (ee) they will produce colored pups.
Was there ever a solid black Finnish Spitz or solid black dog that was merged into the Finnish Spitz? (The merges mentioned above are still spinning in my head). There is another possibility of the three tricolor pups being ata and not atat.
Course, the easy way to resolve this is to just submit a buccal sample to UC Davis for genetic coat color testing. I'll probably do it for my white Poongsan who is looking to be too poorly pigmented to be a simple ee. I got quoted $95 for Ee, Bb, and Dd testing. The Ee only test should be appropriately less.
Well, the explanation I got for the whiskers from the Toller breeder was "somatic mutation".
I touched on it in a blog post (had to republish this one because the auto-saved draft was published instead of the final draft), but I didn't straight out say Finkies are Ayee. It was implied, but I also acknowledged the flaw of such reasoning (the whiskers). The post was more about why the copper elkhounds don't have the same coat genetics as Norrbottenspitz or Finnish Spitz than anything else.
As for solid black, pedigree-wise, the most recent split would be-- early 1900s? With Norwegian Black Elkhounds?
I do know some loci are prone to breaking [or mutating] (see dwarfism in humans), as it is the case with one random brindled Boxer. There was a Pembroke Corgi that was a brindle too. So that is a possibility.
I was checking out the picture of Skippy that was linked on your blog. How reliable is his breed ID? He does look a lot like an ee with his light colored coat and white whiskers.
Considering the importers of the Finkies have a tight monopoly over the breed, I would say the chances of him being a mix is slim. However I would have to ask the blogger about him.
Here's another recessive: Jan. The rest on the site seems to be your typical AyE.
Thanks for correcting me on the misunderstanding on how ee recessive works though. I based my theory on the wrong principles.
I'm not sure if the picture of Jan is just washed out or not? If I look at the dark side of his (her?) muzzle, there is a little bit of dark short whiskers. Are those show medals on him? Do they practice the trimming of whiskers over there?
I was scrolling through some old posts on the yahoo canine genetics list and Liisa Saratonku had said she was aware of only one case of ee with black whiskers and it was a golden. I would defer to her in knowing the difference between an unusual ee vs. a somatic mutation. She knows a lot more than I do about dog coat color genetics among many, many breeds. (She also knows horse and mouse for good measure.)
Usually with somatic mutations the edges are jagged like this:
or this:
I wonder if a closer look at the Toller would have delinated jagged edges of where a scattering of black hairs or hairs tipped with black were localized.
Well, to really answer the question about tan points, one would have to look at the frequency of the alleles, rather than trying to figure out where it comes from.
Like with liver Elkhounds, because of merciless culls, the frequency of the recessive b has been reduced to the point where it's a rarity to get a litter with bb pups.
You asked about coats and colour. I can read Russian, but I don't really have the time to translate, so here's some information directly from Google Translate. It really goofs on the adjectives.
Finnish Laika = Finnish Spitz Finnish-Karelian Laika = what we call Karelo-Finnish Laika, as termed by Vladimir. Protein = What rednecks call "squirrels"
Thus, imported in the mid 50s in Kalinin from Petrozavodsk large group of laiki, named in documents as "Karelian-Finnish", was very diverse and sonically different variations in growth, format, type of constitution coat, head structure and ears. Among them were black, sable, black, sable, red, and only one dog, Yarvik Gubanova, had a red color. It is interesting to note that one of these dogs, quite tall, height at withers 48 cm, Taiga Guskov, received among the Karelian-Finnish Laika rated "good", the same evaluation and subsequently got the ring of Russian-European Laika.
Of great importance in dealing with the Karelian-Finnish Laikas was an introduction for them a single red color. This has led, on the one hand to a sharp reduction in the number of livestock, small dog other suits were outbred, and larger / referred to as Taiga Guskova / rock filled up the Russian-European Laika / not without harm to her /. On the other hand, the Karelian-Finnish Laika became not only suited but more of the same type. The rest of the breed red huskies were in the majority of square or close to it size, lightweight, dry type of constitution, by type, many of them close to the type of Finnish Laika. The latter is caused undeniable influence on the Finnish Laika ancestors remained in the breed, among them, and perhaps in the next generations, were pure-bred Finnish Laika.
Exterior level of the Karelian-Finnish Laika 60s - early 70s remained low, remain significant differences in their growth, hair coat, and especially in the structure of the head. Many dogs have a large growth, immature coat, elongated head with a long snout, dull, pale yellow or light-colored sand color. Of the 29 evaluations received by the Karelian-Finnish Laikas the Kalinin regional exhibitions 1960-1973. was "excellent" - only a "very good" - 16 "satisfactory" - 7 and "unsatisfactory" - 2. Slightly increased the number of class dogs, among them there were dogs of the 1st breeding class.
In 60-70 years was carried out purposeful work to improve the working qualities of the Karelian-Finnish Laika, especially protein. Representatives of the breed appeared in the national team at the zonal competitions for national whites and successfully performed on them.
Improving the level of livestock and exterior of Karelian-Finnish Laika, it becomes more of the same type. In a pinch, uniformity of the Karelian-Finnish Laika played a role changes to the breed standard. Careful study of all standards, from first to present, we must note the basic trends in these developments - namely, the consistent and steady approach to the standard of the breed standard, "the Finnish Laika" / Finnish Spitz /.
However, the biggest influence on the development of the domestic breeds of Karelian-Finnish Laika had imported from Finland, Finnish Laika Thoroughbred / Spitz /. Finnish producers were imported to Moscow, Leningrad, Kirov, Yaroslavl and other cities and is widely used in breeding work. Currently, it is very difficult to find the Karelian-Finnish Laika, in lineage which there would be purebred Finnish Laika. Extensive use of Finnish producers have contributed not only their consolidated "fresh" origin, as they are very showy exterior. They, and their numerous descendants, distinguished "rich" wool, short muzzles and heads, and bright color.
Finnish breeders have use these Laikas for breeding through years and registered them to Finnish spitz to get more genes
And Finnish breeders has through decades brought these "laikas" to enrich our FS breeding stock.
I have been meaning to ask about this. Is this similar to the Swedish Vallhund with the FKK and SKK?
I know, theoretically, if someone has a Vallhund that isn't registered and wish to register it; or came across a dog that looks like a Vallhund, they could petition the club to evaluate the dog on its merit before deciding if it is worth placing it in the studbooks. I am not aware of any specimen like that, since I haven't combed through the pedigree database, but that's the procedure on papers.
I'm not versed to Swedish Vallhund but I think it's the same thing. What I know these Laikas had RKF pedigrees and there was few reliable Karelian breeder who had good dogs whom from Finns bought their Laikas. But in Finland they automatically were registered to Finnish Spitz because of the same history. But RFK did register these two breed separately. In Finland we have these inspection for some breeds where dog show judges check dogs which look like the breed and then give their references to register these dogs to this breed or not. Jack Russels, Heelers and Norrbotten Spitz are few of these breeds.
Well, the procedure is outlined in the SKK rulebook, regardless of the breed.
Ah, that would explain why a Finnish blogger stated the Norrbottenpets fanciers launched an expedition into Russian territory to look for piebald dogs "a few years ago." I still can't find a reference to this event.
My knowledge of genetics and coat color is minute, but I find this conversation fascinating, and as always when we're talking genetics, it makes me want to learn more. And those pics of the oddly marked dogs was really interesting!
So nothing to add except thanks for this conversation which I can eavesdrop on!
But the liver is interesting. The markings, the ears, the face and build are all unusual. Unfortunately, without knowing the owner, we wouldn't know if this is a cross (it's not unheard to refine a hunting dog by crossing in a hound, then breeding it back to the Spitz) or if it's throwback to an old type since we see a few recessives at play here. But it does look like the type of Finkies one would find in photographs from 1880s to 1950s.
Either way, I am not a fan of this specimen... too rangy. But someone out there thinks he's a good dog.
Behavior-wise, size-wise, and weight-wise, they act like our Wild Turkey, which is technically not a grouse, if you want something to compare with. The two are sort of an example of convergent evolution.
It's funny how the two are so much alike because both are just as equally prized by hunters on both sides of the pond.
Interesting! My father-in-law had one mounted on his wall in Germany, and because of our lack of a common language, I couldn't quite figure out what it was, just that it was a bird he'd got in Sweden. I'd meant to look it up when I got home, but hadn't gotten to it yet. I think it's the same bird, anyway...looked a lot like it, and was large....
That's birds meat is good! Ife wanted to eat it alive when we were on hunt but we also wanted piece of it . And for me that dog looks like a mix of Finnish Spitz and Finnish lapphund (here is link for colours in lapphunds http://www.lapikas.net/varisivut/merkkiv.htm). That would explain fluffy coat and colour.
I dont see it as a bad thing if they do those mixes for the genepool. They just published couple months ago the gene research where they find out that all our KBDs are actually halfsisters to each others. Situation was much better with Finnish Spitz, they were just cousins :P That is mostly because they put spitz and laikas together. But the breed clubs are working for KBDs future. They have strict rules about inbreeding and FKC doesnt register dogs with too high inbreeding percent (6,25% in 8th generation). And dogs also have limits for amount of puppies (60 puppies in lifetime for dog).
But yeah, as Mirka said, it's not big suprise if dogs are hard to get from here if they end up in wrong hands and not in the job they belong. Dog people here are fanatics. :P No wonder when we have less than 6 million people here and we register over 50 000 purebreed dogs in year you can count how many dogs we have here There is almost dog in every family and everyone and we dont have profession breeding here. Meaning most of the breeders do it as hobby and love for the dogs. Surely you can find byb here also and breeders who try to cheat with pedigrees, but that is pretty rare.
And it was actually about 700 dogs what they took away from the register last year (Cottons) because there was one mistake made years ago :P Now they have got 150 dogs back to register after DNA testing. After that incident they have been talking about DNA-test must to all breeds and puppies. I think that is little bit over reaction, but most likely it will go to that. In future we will anyways genetest dogs for different diseases and for making sure they are best match in genes so most likely that will come also. But yeah, Finns rarely try to cheat the system because penalties are harsh and people ALWAYS talk. And it is part of our own nature also :P we accept new rules and musts without blinking the eye in almost everything and go and do how our rulers say. Except when they make mistakes with important things like tv and internet
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From my experience, some of it is genetics. Most of it is expectations from the owners. Before, I used to believe it's all about the dog-- but now I realize it's whether or not if someone is willing to help the dog reach its potentials make or break the individual.
For me, I just want my old dog back-- the 35 pounds, 19" tall Shiba Inu. I am a bit disappointed he was neutered because finding another dog like him with the same temperament is impossible. It's easier for me to defect to another breed where my ideas are enshrined in the standards.
Now, an associate of mine always asked why I am willing to go out of my way to get a registered dogs overseas if I could import a bunch of non-registered hunting-bred Norwegian Blacks from West Virginia for $100 per dog and start up my own hunting kennel with them; which are fundamentally the same as the breeds I am interested in. To be honest, I want the "red flame." I want that sable e/e colouration.
Actually, there was a litter, I forgot which forum, which a person crossed a Finnish Spitz with a Finnish Lapphund. There were two tricolours, and six red dogs. Now, um, the only way you can throw a tricolour is if the dog is a carrier of the at allele. However I don't think there was ever a tricolour Finnish Spitz.
However, sometimes when you cross a Golden Retriever with another breed, you will get brindles or tricolours. The reason for this is the recessive yellow (or recessive red, whatever you want to call it) masks any patterns like black-and-tan and brindles.
This was back when I was trying to figure out where the tricolour came from-- then a retriever breeder gave me the run down on the genetics of Ayee.
Was there ever a solid black Finnish Spitz or solid black dog that was merged into the Finnish Spitz? (The merges mentioned above are still spinning in my head). There is another possibility of the three tricolor pups being ata and not atat.
Goldens for sure are black/tans and brindles.
I touched on it in a blog post (had to republish this one because the auto-saved draft was published instead of the final draft), but I didn't straight out say Finkies are Ayee. It was implied, but I also acknowledged the flaw of such reasoning (the whiskers). The post was more about why the copper elkhounds don't have the same coat genetics as Norrbottenspitz or Finnish Spitz than anything else.
http://littleheelers.wordpress.com/2011/06/08/red-viking-dog/
As for solid black, pedigree-wise, the most recent split would be-- early 1900s? With Norwegian Black Elkhounds?
I do know some loci are prone to breaking [or mutating] (see dwarfism in humans), as it is the case with one random brindled Boxer. There was a Pembroke Corgi that was a brindle too. So that is a possibility.
Here's another recessive: Jan. The rest on the site seems to be your typical AyE.
Thanks for correcting me on the misunderstanding on how ee recessive works though. I based my theory on the wrong principles.
I'm not sure if the picture of Jan is just washed out or not? If I look at the dark side of his (her?) muzzle, there is a little bit of dark short whiskers. Are those show medals on him? Do they practice the trimming of whiskers over there?
I was scrolling through some old posts on the yahoo canine genetics list and Liisa Saratonku had said she was aware of only one case of ee with black whiskers and it was a golden. I would defer to her in knowing the difference between an unusual ee vs. a somatic mutation. She knows a lot more than I do about dog coat color genetics among many, many breeds. (She also knows horse and mouse for good measure.)
Usually with somatic mutations the edges are jagged like this:
or this:
I wonder if a closer look at the Toller would have delinated jagged edges of where a scattering of black hairs or hairs tipped with black were localized.
Well, to really answer the question about tan points, one would have to look at the frequency of the alleles, rather than trying to figure out where it comes from.
Like with liver Elkhounds, because of merciless culls, the frequency of the recessive b has been reduced to the point where it's a rarity to get a litter with bb pups.
http://www.arsik.ru/rus/art001.htm
Finnish Laika = Finnish Spitz
Finnish-Karelian Laika = what we call Karelo-Finnish Laika, as termed by Vladimir.
Protein = What rednecks call "squirrels"
I know, theoretically, if someone has a Vallhund that isn't registered and wish to register it; or came across a dog that looks like a Vallhund, they could petition the club to evaluate the dog on its merit before deciding if it is worth placing it in the studbooks. I am not aware of any specimen like that, since I haven't combed through the pedigree database, but that's the procedure on papers.
In Finland we have these inspection for some breeds where dog show judges check dogs which look like the breed and then give their references to register these dogs to this breed or not. Jack Russels, Heelers and Norrbotten Spitz are few of these breeds.
Ah, that would explain why a Finnish blogger stated the Norrbottenpets fanciers launched an expedition into Russian territory to look for piebald dogs "a few years ago." I still can't find a reference to this event.
So nothing to add except thanks for this conversation which I can eavesdrop on!
This one is labelled as a Finnish Spitz, but it doesn't even look like one.
Source: Secrets of Sweden
But the liver is interesting. The markings, the ears, the face and build are all unusual. Unfortunately, without knowing the owner, we wouldn't know if this is a cross (it's not unheard to refine a hunting dog by crossing in a hound, then breeding it back to the Spitz) or if it's throwback to an old type since we see a few recessives at play here. But it does look like the type of Finkies one would find in photographs from 1880s to 1950s.
Either way, I am not a fan of this specimen... too rangy. But someone out there thinks he's a good dog.
Behavior-wise, size-wise, and weight-wise, they act like our Wild Turkey, which is technically not a grouse, if you want something to compare with. The two are sort of an example of convergent evolution.
It's funny how the two are so much alike because both are just as equally prized by hunters on both sides of the pond.
But yeah, as Mirka said, it's not big suprise if dogs are hard to get from here if they end up in wrong hands and not in the job they belong. Dog people here are fanatics. :P No wonder when we have less than 6 million people here and we register over 50 000 purebreed dogs in year you can count how many dogs we have here
And it was actually about 700 dogs what they took away from the register last year