dog parks and why they are bad for a dog living with people

edited May 2011 in Behavior & Training
i have read a few posts that were dog park related; not ALL, but enuff to know that a lot of NK owners like them
...with that said....
- if you want your dog to listen to you you need them motivated to listen to you and you need to be more fun to them than than the fun they get by playing with a pack of dogs
- if they are easily distracted, why increase the distraction level by adding a pack of dogs to the equation ?
- what training benefit is there when your dog is at a dog park ? what do you train for there ?
- if your dog has ANY issues with meeting other dogs you have made a BIG mistake by allowing them to mingle off lead with other dogs you cannot control. as much as i think cesar millan has done horribly wrong with his training techniques, he DOES have absolute control over HIS "dog park" that he refers to as his "pack". not suer about how dog parks in the states are managed tho
- i very often deal with owners who have a dog which we refer to in training circles as "doggy"... all it really means is that the dog's primary desire for social activity is to be with other dogs. this type of dog is one of the most difficult to train in either basic obedience or any other higher level of training. trips to dog parks reinforce this behavior. common with dogs who are overly friendly and totally not aggressive, but just as difficult to train and control around people and will often bother other people with a dog they are trying to maintain focus with
- when asked why people take their dogs to dog parks i rarely get an answer that i would consider a good reason to take them there, especially the one that sounds something like "my dog is a dog and needs the play and companionship of other dogs to live its life to the fullest", etc.
- if anyone has a reason why taking your dog to a dog park has a positive effect on your training or the dog's behavior please let me know because over the years i have become more and more against them....to be more specific, please relate any "success story" that you feel was accomplished after your dog started attending a dog park
- they are not nearly as common over here in japan, but I do not allow any customer who is training with me to take their dog to one. if it is a deal breaker, I will stop training with them. i have very few inflexible rules, but this is one of mine

Comments

  • I work at a dog daycare and I frequently take my dogs to the "dog park" (it's a large, unfenced farm area that people use for their dogs) near my home.

    I don't particularly like the behavioral effects "dog daycare" has on some dogs. We frequently have to eject dogs from daycare because they've picked up a behavior (fence fighting, mounting, etc.) from being AT daycare that we do not approve of. I only mention it here because I feel it's a similar environment to a dog park, though it's supposedly more controlled (however, there's also no training in the yards, no owners, just "camp counselors" who are supposed to stop :a short list of "aggressive" behaviors)... so I can understand why a dog park or a daycare would be a terrible place to bring your dog if they're difficult to manage already.

    What I do like are the training opportunities these places provide for me BECAUSE they're giant distractions. If my dogs can listen to me and follow my direction at the park or in the yards at work, I'm very proud of them. For the same reason, I like training my dogs downtown.

    With London (4 y/o Malamute), I use the park for on-lead walking time around other dogs. London is blind, doesn't trust dogs while "confined" (on-lead) and can be a giant bully if a dog runs too fast past him or doesn't allow him to essentially violate them long enough to get to know them and decide if they are or are not a threat. What London is GOOD at, though, is looking at me and trusting what I have to say to him. It's taken nearly two years and maybe I could have gotten faster or better results some other way, but by bringing London to the dog park to train while there are tons of other crazy dogs running around and ignoring him because he isn't part of play time, I think it's helped his behavior a lot. He's gone from a one and a half year old punk aggressively pursuing any dog he can sense is near to a four year old, mellow dog who may still concernedly look in another dog's direction or straight out ignore them until they get close.

    I bring Russell (2 y/o high energy mixed breed) to the park because it gives him an opportunity to run with things "his speed". He was absolutely terrified of people when I got him, but LOVED other dogs, and the dog park gave him the opportunity to meet dogs - and more importantly, their people - in an easy-going environment where people weren't putting a lot of attention on him or trying to pet him. I think it was a critical point in his socialization - a good experience to start with. Since then, he's stopped fear-barking at every single person that goes by our house or tries to pat him on the street and gives people a chance. The only time he still enters full fear mode is if I don't greet someone who's entered the house. All in all, I think the dog park has been very healthy for Russell physically and emotionally. If it ever becomes a problem for his behavior or his health, I'll stop bringing him (like I only bring London every once in a blue moon for training), of course, but that time hasn't come yet.

    Maybe this isn't BEST way to approach my dogs' individual problems, but it's had results without (I feel) damaging them, even if progression is slow. It's still progression, though.
  • edited May 2011
    LoL, I'm one of those guilty people who enjoy taking my pups to the dog park, and my guys have fun there, and I do understand the drawbacks to them. I am very careful about when I go though, generally taking them during business hours when everyone is at work and there are very few other dogs around. My main reason for going is to give them off-leash exercise since I do not have a fenced yard and the leash laws are very strict, and give them the opportunity to play with each other without getting tangled in leashes or banging on the couch.

    By me, they were never thought of as a place to practice training but were more for dog-dog socialization, though that doesn't stop idiots from using the place to "babysit" their dog while they read a book.

    I think part of the problem with getting a dogs focus in this sort of environment is just as much the fact of the human's mind that this is a place for dogs to interact with dogs not people. When you start off with that mind set, the dog learns that at the dog park, dogs are fun and people are boring. But then, there are people who go there whose dogs are just as interested in them (or more so) as they are in other dogs due to the fact that these people will actually interact and play with their dogs there. I don't just stand there and watch my guys, I play with them. I take turns chasing and getting chased by my husky, play fetch with a stick with the shiba, and while we're at it I'll throw in a basic command like 'sit' or 'down'. This actually helped teach Tetsu impulse control, as the stick doesn't get thrown if he gets up too soon.

    I do admit that going there has made Tikaani a bit "doggy" as you put it, but attending classes where we work obedience around other dogs has helped him learn that there are times when he is allowed to play with dogs and there are times when he is not. Btw, Tikaani and I will be attending or first Obedience Match (which is basically a test run before actually competing) in June.


    But like I said, I go during the quieter times, when there are about 5 other dogs around, so my experiences are different. I think if it was as crowded all the time as it is during the evenings and weekends (practically 50 dogs shoved in 1 acre), I would stop going.

    EDIT to add that when both my boys were young, I actually got excited when there were tons of dogs at the park. But after a bit, I had realized that Tetsu did not do well with more than 10 dogs in at a time. They did get in a few scuffles with other dogs, that we tried to follow with something postive (like fetch or a walk to the pond). Though I feel that it kind of helped my guys bounce back better from when we actually did get attacked during a walk around the neighborhood.
  • When it comes to people taking their puppies to dog parks to "socialize" them, I think of it like this: would you take your child to a prison and throw them in to socialize with big scary adult men and expect everything to just work itself out?

  • edited May 2011
    OK you've got my attention. As an owner who brings one of my dogs to the dogpark, here's my response.


    if you want your dog to listen to you you need them motivated to listen to you and you need to be more fun to them than than the fun they get by playing with a pack of dogs

    I totally agree. However, I think that you are valuing playing with other dogs as the highest resource in a dog's life and this simply isn't true. I bring Koda to the dogpark near my house because there are some great dogs and dog owners. It's not a time to train, but a time to just allow him to be a dog. He does not value his play time as much as he values his time with me. Honestly, Koda would go anywhere and do anything just to be with me. We have a bond, and that bond came from me earning his trust and from well the fact that everything good to Koda comes from me: food, toys, walks, hikes, treats, etc. I'm the source of everything good to him, and because of that he listens to me.

    if they are easily distracted, why increase the distraction level by adding a pack of dogs to the equation ?

    True, but again I don't think going to the dogpark should be a time when an owner tries to train their dog. I see people trying to work on recall at the park or focusing. It's stupid and ridiculous to me.

    what training benefit is there when your dog is at a dog park ? what do you train for there ?

    There is no training benefit other than reinforcing good social behavior. Your dog must inherently be a well mannered dog to begin with so there's no training benefit. No one should train their dog at the dogpark.

    if your dog has ANY issues with meeting other dogs you have made a BIG mistake by allowing them to mingle off lead with other dogs you cannot control. as much as i think cesar millan has done horribly wrong with his training techniques, he DOES have absolute control over HIS "dog park" that he refers to as his "pack". not suer about how dog parks in the states are managed tho

    I have a female that I won't bring to the dogpark. She hates it. I do believe that bringing her there will flood her with unwanted social anxiety. So no the dogpark is not for every dog. She does do well in off leash hiking areas though. She does great and loves going. Since she is 100% comfortable, I do take her off leash hiking.

    i very often deal with owners who have a dog which we refer to in training circles as "doggy"... all it really means is that the dog's primary desire for social activity is to be with other dogs. this type of dog is one of the most difficult to train in either basic obedience or any other higher level of training. trips to dog parks reinforce this behavior. common with dogs who are overly friendly and totally not aggressive, but just as difficult to train and control around people and will often bother other people with a dog they are trying to maintain focus with

    Well I have Kais, not Labs, and I would label Koda as a dog who really likes other dogs. But he's still a Kai. He's reserved. He's not like my friend's overly friendly Labs or Border Collies who jump on everyone out of excitement. This type of immature behavior is beneath Koda. He would think those dogs are dumb to jump up on people they don't know or just run up to dogs he doesn't know. He's a bit of an old soul. I'm not sure if NK fit into this category you describe.

    when asked why people take their dogs to dog parks i rarely get an answer that i would consider a good reason to take them there, especially the one that sounds something like "my dog is a dog and needs the play and companionship of other dogs to live its life to the fullest", etc.

    Koda is an Autistic Child Support Dog, and is actually taking on another Therapy Dog job pretty soon. We go to a dogpark about once a week. He works on Mondays and Wednesday, and on Tuesdays and Thursdays is either at my parent's house or at a doggy daycare. I keep him out of the house because I don't have a yard and I have a lot of guilt over this. Admittedly this is my issue not his. Most of our time is spent just with the two of us. We run 45 minutes in the morning, and walk/hike 2 hours in the evening. Koda is a very busy dog because me his owner likes to be out and busy. I think he has a pretty great life, but sometimes he just needs some down time to just be....not training, not working, not hiking, just mellow out and have fun. He works hard, and I'm very proud of everything he has accomplished. So, I give him an hour and a half a week to be at the dogpark without worrying about having to follow everything I'm saying. I consider it a treat for his good work.

    if anyone has a reason why taking your dog to a dog park has a positive effect on your training or the dog's behavior please let me know because over the years i have become more and more against them....to be more specific, please relate any "success story" that you feel was accomplished after your dog started attending a dog park

    Again, dogparks should NOT be about training your dog. Don't try and train your dog at a park.

    they are not nearly as common over here in japan, but I do not allow any customer who is training with me to take their dog to one. if it is a deal breaker, I will stop training with them. i have very few inflexible rules, but this is one of mine

    Koda's handler has been training service dogs for 35 years. She started with Seeing Eye Dogs for aging victims of Hiroshima who are now living in the US who have become blind as the after effect. She, nor his other trainers/behaviorists, have ever had a problem with him going to the dogpark. I have never seen any ill effects of him going to a park.
  • I actually don't think most owners of NKs like them. We've heard from people who do go, but I think more of us don't take our dogs to dog parks. I supposed my Akita boy could go to one as he's not reactive (though he definetly would react if a dog got in his face) but I don't like them, so I've never taken him to one (nor will I) but it would be a dog fight waiting to happen if I took either of my Shibas to one.

    I'm sure they are of some benefit to easy going dogs that like to play with other dogs. I have a friend with a lab who had a great time at the dog park. It didn't seem to hurt his training at all. I think they're fine for some dogs. I suspect they're not great for a lot of NKs though, who as Tara points out have a totally different temperament.
  • I agree with Tara that the dog park should not be a place where a person should be training their dog. I love taking Mika to the dog parks once a week. She has a big open space to run around which I do not have for her at home. She is a social butterfly and plays with all the dogs in the small area very well. She knows different playstyles to play with different dogs. She won't wrestle or get mouthy with a dog unless that dog is willing to do so. She will just paw and run around.

    I take her to the dog parks because of socialization reasons. I believe the reason why she is so good with playing with other dogs is because I took her to puppy classes and day care where it is a controlled environment, and so when she is in an unpredictable environment such as a dog park she handles herself very well with other dogs.

    Echoing again what Tara said, dog parks aren't for every dog, but I don't believe it is bad for me to take Mika to the dog park.
  • So, essentially, what I'm hearing is I should -not- be socializing London at the dog park? I know where I go is not the fenced in small, cramped area most people think of when they think of a dog park... but I'm sure the same rules may apply. If so, where -is- the correct place to socialize him on lead with that kind of distraction? I mean, what I'm doing with him now (once a week on lead at the park) seems to be doing wonders for him and he looks forward to his off-lead play time, but if there's a better way... I'm all ears.
  • Actually, I think if it works for you, its fine. There is never one answer for everyone, right?
  • When I first got Conker he was terribly afraid of other people. He was curious but not enough to go anywhere near another person. When around other dogs though, he will let, on occasion, someone he just met pet him. He no longer flat out runs away from strangers and will walk up to them and sniff without hesitation.
    Because I took him to the dog park.
    Yes, taking a stranger-wary dog to the dog park might not have been the best idea but I live in a small town and there is rarely more than five dogs at the park at a time. The most I've ever seen was nine at once and that was during "peak" hours.

    Conker values me over time with other dogs. I know this because if I walk to the other end of the park he will stop whatever he is doing with the other dogs and follow me. No matter how much fun he might be having, he values his time with me over time with other dogs.
    Conker also does better off-leash when meeting people and dogs than on-leash. He doesn't like being confined to a 6 foot circle when meeting dogs and people and does much better when he is able to run around and "test" the other dog he's meeting.
    And if he wants to get away from someone, he can do that at the dog park. Not on-leash.
    Conker is good with greeting other dogs at the dog park. He doesn't rush to the gate because I taught him not to and he usually doesn't like to be part of the greeting mob anyways. He doesn't seem to care either way when we go in.

    Most of the dogs are very well behaved and trained dogs. I am part of a group of regulars who go almost every day and all our dogs get along great. We don't train our dogs during this time, we just let them be dogs. They play, lounge around, run, sniff, mark, hump (yes, we let them do it within limits) and generally just be dogs. The dog park is just that, a park for dogs to be themselves.
    Every now and then someone with a rowdy uncontrollable dog comes. I will up and leave when that happens not because I think it will hurt Conker, but because I can't stand seeing horribly behaved dogs running loose. It drives me nuts.

    A lot of them time there is nobody there when I go. Sometimes I intentionally go when nobody is around for off-leash time with just me and Conker. When nobody is around I do train him but mainly on recall and other off-leash manners. But the second someone else comes in training time is over.


    My Mom's dogs though, they don't like other dogs. I'd like to bring them but they don't get along and will start fights and I know that is not good for them.
    The biggest reason why I started bringing Conker to the dog park was so he could play with other dogs since Juneau and Sasha won't. He really does like to play with dogs but sometimes he just wants to walk around off-leash and sniff stuff. My yard isn't big enough for that.
    He has learned many good behaviors since I've been bringing him there and is no longer a bolter when we pass strangers on the street since he learned from other dogs that people are okay.
  • I don't know how most people use dog parks or what most dog parks are like, but the dog parks in my city aren't really used as areas where you just let your dog loose to play with other dogs. They're quite large, for one thing, they have trails and they're wildernessy. They're like many of the other nature parks in the area, but your dogs are allowed off-leash there. So, it's like a hike where you encounter other dogs once in a while. My dogs don't really go there to play with other dogs, they go there and go on a hike with me. When we pass other dogs, they greet, and then we pass them and my dogs follow me.

    @kwyld When it comes to people taking their puppies to dog parks to "socialize" them, I think of it like this: would you take your child to a prison and throw them in to socialize with big scary adult men and expect everything to just work itself out?
    I really don't think that's a reasonable comparison. Taking your dogs to the dog park is more like taking your kids to the playground. Most of the other kids are reasonably well-behaved. Sometimes you come across a jerk, but that's why you're there being attentive and ready to intervene. Last year, I took Isaac to the playground and this kid ran up to him, handed him a toy gun, and said, "Shoot me! I'm a zombie and I'm going to chase you!" and the rest of that trip to the playground involved keeping this other kid from biting Isaac. Likewise, there are pushy and rude dogs at the dog park, and sometimes it's YOUR dog misbehaving, so you have to be paying attention.
  • Once in awhile I'll take my lab Hana to the dog beach (kinda like a dog park) for some water retrieves but she doesn't seem bothered by any of the dogs. When she was a pup, she did get nippd by a older dog once. But it never really affected her so I dunno. I actually like going to the Coronado dog beach with Hana but only Hana.
  • edited May 2011
    Heidi the dog parks you go to sounds like fun. Mine in Lafayette Indiana is more for the dogs playing with other dogs.

    I'm luky people leave right away if their dogs at up and most times it's not often.

    Saya and Bella loves it I think it helps them with their socialization with strange people and dogs.

    The dog park I went to after the shiba picnic in Mad WI was nice it was about 14acres so it was great we could walk on te trails with the dogs. We followed a few dog owners and our dogs stayed with us. I wish my local one was like that..

    I have no fence so going to the dog parks gives my two off leash times since it'd be too expensive to fence my 16acre yard/field/woods..

    I agree dog parks have risks I try to go same time when most people I know go too.

    Dog parks are not too good for training maybe when no one is around or less people and then work up to more people or if the dog park is big like the WI one..

    I sometimes call Bella or Saya over to me when they come I reward them with a message and send them back to play.

    I don't do sits or downs when other dogs are around..
  • I don't really see a problem with letting your dog just be a dog every once and a while. It can't always be about training and strict control over their environment.
  • edited May 2011
    I use to take my Belgian Malinois, Lynx, to the dog the park when she was a puppy. The specific one that I went to was an excellent dog park with more responsible and attentive owners then not. It was a great source of socialization for her and she had a blast playing with the other dogs. At the time, I did not have a fenced in yard...so we use to spend hours on end at this dog park so that she could get plenty of off-leash exercise in a secure and safe area.

    It was fun for her and for me, she enjoyed and I enjoyed it. Sometimes I'd play with her and the other dogs. Sometimes I just hung out and had wonderful conversations with the other owners while our dogs played together, explored the HUGH park or loafed around and relaxed. Lynx and I use to go all the time until she was a year old. The minute Lynx stopped having fun at the dog park...we stopped going. That was that.

    I use to also take Shoushuu and Kotomi to the dog park, just to get out of the house.

    I've had some wonderful experiences being at a dog park. And I've had some horrible experiences being at a dog park as well! However, given the right combination of dogs and attentive owners with common sense...the dog park can be a great place to simply just hang out. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. I'd understand if said dog was completely miserable and hating the dog park that it'd be a problem. However, if said dog is happy to be there and relaxed, WHY would going to the dog park become an issue?


    -----------------

    *I should clarify though when I went with Shoushuu & Kotomi...we went to a newer dog park that was usually empty. The only dogs they mingled with were small dogs and puppies. I'd try to meet up with friends so our dogs could play. Usually leaving when strange older and/or large dogs came into play.


    Lynx had a unique situation since we got to know the owners and their pups, who were "regulars" at the doggie park. So our dogs all knew each other. We learned who the "bad owners & dogs" were and made sure to steer clear of them (they never stayed long).


    If you have a nice consistent crew and a small population of dogs, it's great (positive experiences). I never liked going to dog parks with hugh amounts of strange dogs and people (negative experiences). I feel my dogs don't need to be harassed or in a potential dangerous situation with a sketchy insecure dog. To make the dog park a fun and safe environment...know your crowd! Um, yeah...so as long as it is safe play, I think it's okay.*


    * * = Add/Edit
  • I'm not a dog park fan, and I think socializing a socially-immature dog (a dog who has not reached social maturity) at a dog park is a very dangerous thing to do.

    Also, I don't mind my dogs being "doggy", actually I think I prefer it. We have a unique situation here tho, and so we need our dogs to value each other and their relationships. Also, I have not found that our dogs are any harder to train due to their time spent as a group socializing with their family (dogs), but I am not training any real advanced things - just basic obedience and "temperament training".

    ----
  • Brad, you have your very own doggie park in your backyard (a better one!), lol. =p
  • About training at dog parks, I don't think there are right or wrong places to train your dog. Training, for me at least, is just an on-going process that happens all day, every day, whenever the opportunity arises. So, absolutely we do training at the dog park. For recall training, for instance, I just give my dogs a treat every time they check in, and if they're running toward me, I yell, "Come!" and then they get big rewards. If there's a pause in activity, maybe we'll practice a couple sits. Whenever the opportunity presents itself. I think it's actually a really good idea to train in all situations, because otherwise your dog might get the idea that obedience is only for certain places at certain times, during structured training periods, rather than for every day life. If I want my dog to come when called at a dog park, I've got to train them to come at the dog park eventually.

    You can't put a dog in a situation without somehow teaching them how to act in that situation. That's ridiculous.


    @ShikokuSpirit Lynx had a unique situation since we got to know the owners and their pups, who were "regulars" at the doggie park. So our dogs all knew each other. We learned who the "bad owners & dogs" were and made sure to steer clear of them (they never stayed long).

    That's kind of what our dog park is like, too. There are groups of regulars who meet at certain times and go for walks together around the trails. There are dogs and people I've known at our dog park since Tojo was a puppy. Also, there are never very many people at the dog parks at once. Five people is unusually high, and over such a large area, it's pretty easy to avoid people if you want. So, I can either go when the familiar dogs are there and walk with them, or go some other time and just keep to myself.

    Sosuke's been to the dog park plenty of times. Since there are dogs who I've known for a long time and who I know are safe, he can socialize with them, but more often we go just for exercise. If I see a familiar dog, then yeah, we'll go say hi.
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