"thinking in OC terms"
don't know if this is too basic for this list, but thought i would copy/paste an excerpt to an owner i am training with online....she is just starting to condition her LARGE spooky gsd to getting blown off with a metroblaster dryer...she has cancer and a very weak grip as a result.....the dog and her are coming along great but i want to make sure she doesn't drop that big plastic python and startle her big boy :-)
........ a bit long :-) .............................................
...regarding my grip on the air blower
you're right and that's why i told you how to be extra careful about holding it because i have dropped it before :-(((
but what is good about your comment is it leads right in to a problem i'm having with nick's owners and many owners
so maybe this is a good time to mention it
i often get owners who really don't want to study OC enuff to learn how to "think" OC
they say they don't feel a need to understand the "why" as long as they "do it" correctly and feel if they watch me closely and COPY, and then practice, they will eventually get it correct
my answer is that it "might" work that way, but can just as easily lead to making the problem worse in the meantime or delay fwd progress
then i list all the reasons why they will "copy" me wrong if they don't know WHY i'm doing something
here is a perfect real world example of a BASIC problem we are having now
problem being addressed : walking a dog on a leash who pulls (your basic "opposition reflex" in action)
pretty common problem, i might add :-)
been trying to explain to them how not trying to "think" in OC terms can extend the life of a simple problem and then make a difficult one almost impossible to fix if you don't understand the communication going on back/forth between your dog and yourself - operantly
- these owners know all about how to mark and treat when we are doing static position work (sit down stay), and they are proud of that success, but as soon as they leave the deck and hit the road it all goes out the window
you've heard me say how nick was an extreme puller
extreme pullers are fairly easy to slow down quickly when done operantly......allow the dog to tighten the leash and when they do, handler stops fwd progress and does NOT pull back on the lead......dog wants to move; can't; will eventually release tension; handler MARKS it, and continues fwd (or turns, or reverses direction, or pivots, etc.,) depending on how hyped the dog is
the more the habit has been ingrained the longer it takes......but will work with every dog on the planet and only fails when the owner runs out of patience or only tries to walk in straight lines...running out of patience happens frequently even tho all owners deny they are NOT infinitely patient :-)
sometimes when the dog releases tension and the handler pause, the dog will also look back at the handler as if to say "wth is this ?" which the owner can mark/reinforce even more with a quick firm pat, single enthusiastic praise word, AND a GOOD treat (mini party cause now you are also reinforcing EC without even trying and getting two birds for the price of one)
- dog has learned by itself what it needs to do to get what it wants - operantly and with little to no conversation or chatter from the owner...no commands given.....no "good boy" "thank you" or other useless sounds .... only with markers; verbal and physical
this initial, but easy to see (and significant) progress happens fairly quick
owners are enthusiastic and think they've already solved the problem :-)
they haven't .... this is only progress :-)
the dog will still continue to exert lead tension if allowed, and handlers, who were also conditioned to having to hang on for dear life, now have a much easier time with the greatly reduced pulling .... and accept it :-(((
from this point there is no more progress .... behavior plateaus because there is no more communication to the dog
and note - at this point i have NOT allowed ANY correction to be delivered to the dog because the dog has not yet LEARNED the behavior well enuff
this is the case with both owners --- they now give constant small jerks to keep nick in place and think i don't see it :-) ... when i point it out, they laff to hide their guilt :-)
- have explained in detail why this is not operant and why it is ineffective and they appear to be listening.....also have explained in depth how important it is at this point to mark ALL correct behavior whenever it happens at the instant it happens, but don't overdue it, and make it quick and continue the walk.....treats are rarely necessary since the desire to move on is usually sufficient as a reward
what they don't realize is they ARE reinforcing nick operantly, but sending him the WRONG message ... that if he pulls a little and maintains pressure, all is FINE and he will keep moving on his walk :-((
... they also haven't been observing that whenever nick releases tension i also mark that behavior instantly with a yes, and when he does it WELL (like maybe he sits when i stop) i mark and reinforce at a even higher level
i am ONLY marking correct behavior and only after a dog has absolutely learned to walk with a slack leash will i then apply an appropriate correction if they apply tension to the lead. that will usually be when i can take them out and do it correctly for 20-30 min in a public place with moderate distractions; but it is a judgement call that depends on each dog
but they RARELY if ever mark the correct behaviors as they occur - too embarrassed to do it in public maybe ?? probably some of that but clearly because they don't understand why they should
- and then they get frustrated and started talking; saying "dahmmeh" (NO) or "mawtay" (wait), or just calling out his name for no reason (which of course he pays no attention to).....useless "chatter" that has NO meaning to the dog and just makes him tune out more
my way of applying OC is crystal clear to nick and he is improving at a fast rate....i can walk him with only my thumb and forefinger holding the flat nylon training lead i am using (looped around the wrist for safety purposes) for as long as i want
so tonight i told then don't worry about why i've told you about to mark his correct behavior, don't allow him to pull, etc., do it like you prefer to do : watch me first then just copy me and practice .... but look CLOSELY, because tonight i will be using a slightly different "technique" for walking :-)
in GOOD light and making sure i was VERY clear by over exaggerating that they could see how i was going to hold the lead (two fingers) i took off......nick was pretty good...had to make a few turns and had to pivot in front of him to stop many attempts at marking, but after ten min or so, my fingers weren't cramped :-) and nick got LOTS of marks and praise in the process
- when it was their turn to "copy",,,, they both did it the same way - grabbed a FISTFULL of lead, and moved off in a straight line, and tried hard to fight any tension without making a backward pull,...very few direction or speed changes, and gave almost NO marks whenever he was good and released on his own.....it was clear to me all they were trying to do was restrain him without me seeing them jerk a leash - NO operant "thinking" going on whatsoever :-)
- PEOPLE SEE WHAT THEY WANNA SEE, and unless they are also pilots or race drivers, usually have limited ability to "scan" the whole field of view :-)
- unless they know WHY i'm doing something, trying to imitate me or any other trainer using OC is NEVER gonna work if observed in "parrot" mode :-)
- and as u already know, these two are both MD's who are very familiar with OC as it applies to humans and have been spoon fed the canine adaptations which they said was easy to understand
- but reading something that sounds simple is a far cry from ACTUALLY thinking it and applying it in every situation you are ever in when you are with your dog.....it is a lot more than just honing your timing to deliver a treat, and you already know how much it has helped Chief to get his confidence and motivation up when the schutzhund trainer said he had NONE :-)
long drawn out way to make my point....you saw how i was incorrectly holding the hose but couldn't see the amount of pressure i was applying while doing it that way, which for me, is with a LOT more pressure than you can exert with your fingers if you try to hold it the same way and that's why i've been so hard on ya for that part of the drill :-)
hope you can see the analogy ...
-----------------------------------------
........ a bit long :-) .............................................
...regarding my grip on the air blower
you're right and that's why i told you how to be extra careful about holding it because i have dropped it before :-(((
but what is good about your comment is it leads right in to a problem i'm having with nick's owners and many owners
so maybe this is a good time to mention it
i often get owners who really don't want to study OC enuff to learn how to "think" OC
they say they don't feel a need to understand the "why" as long as they "do it" correctly and feel if they watch me closely and COPY, and then practice, they will eventually get it correct
my answer is that it "might" work that way, but can just as easily lead to making the problem worse in the meantime or delay fwd progress
then i list all the reasons why they will "copy" me wrong if they don't know WHY i'm doing something
here is a perfect real world example of a BASIC problem we are having now
problem being addressed : walking a dog on a leash who pulls (your basic "opposition reflex" in action)
pretty common problem, i might add :-)
been trying to explain to them how not trying to "think" in OC terms can extend the life of a simple problem and then make a difficult one almost impossible to fix if you don't understand the communication going on back/forth between your dog and yourself - operantly
- these owners know all about how to mark and treat when we are doing static position work (sit down stay), and they are proud of that success, but as soon as they leave the deck and hit the road it all goes out the window
you've heard me say how nick was an extreme puller
extreme pullers are fairly easy to slow down quickly when done operantly......allow the dog to tighten the leash and when they do, handler stops fwd progress and does NOT pull back on the lead......dog wants to move; can't; will eventually release tension; handler MARKS it, and continues fwd (or turns, or reverses direction, or pivots, etc.,) depending on how hyped the dog is
the more the habit has been ingrained the longer it takes......but will work with every dog on the planet and only fails when the owner runs out of patience or only tries to walk in straight lines...running out of patience happens frequently even tho all owners deny they are NOT infinitely patient :-)
sometimes when the dog releases tension and the handler pause, the dog will also look back at the handler as if to say "wth is this ?" which the owner can mark/reinforce even more with a quick firm pat, single enthusiastic praise word, AND a GOOD treat (mini party cause now you are also reinforcing EC without even trying and getting two birds for the price of one)
- dog has learned by itself what it needs to do to get what it wants - operantly and with little to no conversation or chatter from the owner...no commands given.....no "good boy" "thank you" or other useless sounds .... only with markers; verbal and physical
this initial, but easy to see (and significant) progress happens fairly quick
owners are enthusiastic and think they've already solved the problem :-)
they haven't .... this is only progress :-)
the dog will still continue to exert lead tension if allowed, and handlers, who were also conditioned to having to hang on for dear life, now have a much easier time with the greatly reduced pulling .... and accept it :-(((
from this point there is no more progress .... behavior plateaus because there is no more communication to the dog
and note - at this point i have NOT allowed ANY correction to be delivered to the dog because the dog has not yet LEARNED the behavior well enuff
this is the case with both owners --- they now give constant small jerks to keep nick in place and think i don't see it :-) ... when i point it out, they laff to hide their guilt :-)
- have explained in detail why this is not operant and why it is ineffective and they appear to be listening.....also have explained in depth how important it is at this point to mark ALL correct behavior whenever it happens at the instant it happens, but don't overdue it, and make it quick and continue the walk.....treats are rarely necessary since the desire to move on is usually sufficient as a reward
what they don't realize is they ARE reinforcing nick operantly, but sending him the WRONG message ... that if he pulls a little and maintains pressure, all is FINE and he will keep moving on his walk :-((
... they also haven't been observing that whenever nick releases tension i also mark that behavior instantly with a yes, and when he does it WELL (like maybe he sits when i stop) i mark and reinforce at a even higher level
i am ONLY marking correct behavior and only after a dog has absolutely learned to walk with a slack leash will i then apply an appropriate correction if they apply tension to the lead. that will usually be when i can take them out and do it correctly for 20-30 min in a public place with moderate distractions; but it is a judgement call that depends on each dog
but they RARELY if ever mark the correct behaviors as they occur - too embarrassed to do it in public maybe ?? probably some of that but clearly because they don't understand why they should
- and then they get frustrated and started talking; saying "dahmmeh" (NO) or "mawtay" (wait), or just calling out his name for no reason (which of course he pays no attention to).....useless "chatter" that has NO meaning to the dog and just makes him tune out more
my way of applying OC is crystal clear to nick and he is improving at a fast rate....i can walk him with only my thumb and forefinger holding the flat nylon training lead i am using (looped around the wrist for safety purposes) for as long as i want
so tonight i told then don't worry about why i've told you about to mark his correct behavior, don't allow him to pull, etc., do it like you prefer to do : watch me first then just copy me and practice .... but look CLOSELY, because tonight i will be using a slightly different "technique" for walking :-)
in GOOD light and making sure i was VERY clear by over exaggerating that they could see how i was going to hold the lead (two fingers) i took off......nick was pretty good...had to make a few turns and had to pivot in front of him to stop many attempts at marking, but after ten min or so, my fingers weren't cramped :-) and nick got LOTS of marks and praise in the process
- when it was their turn to "copy",,,, they both did it the same way - grabbed a FISTFULL of lead, and moved off in a straight line, and tried hard to fight any tension without making a backward pull,...very few direction or speed changes, and gave almost NO marks whenever he was good and released on his own.....it was clear to me all they were trying to do was restrain him without me seeing them jerk a leash - NO operant "thinking" going on whatsoever :-)
- PEOPLE SEE WHAT THEY WANNA SEE, and unless they are also pilots or race drivers, usually have limited ability to "scan" the whole field of view :-)
- unless they know WHY i'm doing something, trying to imitate me or any other trainer using OC is NEVER gonna work if observed in "parrot" mode :-)
- and as u already know, these two are both MD's who are very familiar with OC as it applies to humans and have been spoon fed the canine adaptations which they said was easy to understand
- but reading something that sounds simple is a far cry from ACTUALLY thinking it and applying it in every situation you are ever in when you are with your dog.....it is a lot more than just honing your timing to deliver a treat, and you already know how much it has helped Chief to get his confidence and motivation up when the schutzhund trainer said he had NONE :-)
long drawn out way to make my point....you saw how i was incorrectly holding the hose but couldn't see the amount of pressure i was applying while doing it that way, which for me, is with a LOT more pressure than you can exert with your fingers if you try to hold it the same way and that's why i've been so hard on ya for that part of the drill :-)
hope you can see the analogy ...
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